[MissCharlotte]

I was talking to T about how I get along better with the guys at work than I do with the women and I go, "Sometimes women scare the hell out of me." And T said, "I don't blame you." We laughed together.

I think this is a combination of growing up with 3 sisters and being in the midst of intense competition rather than friendship--having an insensitive and distant, cold, dissociated mother, and and abusive grandmother. And I have been living for the past 26 years with H, and 3 sons. I live in a locker room......

But, the funny thing is, I love being feminine and dressing feminine and asking my H and sons how my new outfits look, etc.

I'm trying to sort out my feelings about this. Hmmm. I also liked HIllary.

Oh well.

Peaceout

I'm way more comfortable with men too....I guess because I grew up with an abusive, alcoholic mom.

And like you, Miss C - I live with dh and three sons! Lucky us

Your T's response made me giggle: "I don't blame you"

Women scare the hell out of me, too. I will never forget the time I was sitting in T's office before I started my internship and I suddenly said to him: "Oh %#@&#!-- it just occurred to me-- there's gonna be women there. I'll have to give them therapy, too." I have spent a lot of time separating my personal life countertransference from my therapist countertransference towards women. I have done well, but I have to say that I do genuinely enjoy counseling men and it is a specialty all its own in the psychology world-- one that I get more and more interested in exploring (think men's issues, lol).

I rarely engage in deep relationships (or any relationships) with women. No, that's a lie. I formed a couple female friendships since moving here, but I have trouble sustaining them.

For as much as I can't stand being around women, mulitple that by 600 and that is how much I enjoy being a woman.

Like you, Miss, I love dressing feminine and sexy. Sexy does not have to mean boobs and *** hanging out. You can look sexy in an appropriate, put together outfit that you could go to the office in.

However, I think there is always a time for a bit of cleavage, if you've got it, lol. I don't mind showing off my body a bit-- I really don't see why it should be all covered up. There is a a fine line-- no, I do not go out of the house in some cheesy getup with a thong showing out of my pants and a midriff baring shirt... but I do like to wear form-fitting clothes, short skirts, strapless dresses and shirt, and tops that are cut low (but not ridiculously low).

Sexy can be extremely tasteful and classy. It can be fun, funky, and comfortable.

I grew up very, very close with my father and I still am to this day. He is my dad; he is one of my closest friends.

I specifically asked for a male therapist. I specifically asked for a male psychiatrist. All of my doctors (yes, even ob/gyn), are male.

[chaotic13]

Up until the past couple of years I had very little interaction with other women. I work in a prominently male field and am the only woman in my department. Of the few close friends that I've had, all but one of them were men. With the exception of my T, all of my other health care professionals are men. This I guess is a bit strange considering my childhood and parental issues. As stupid as it sounds, I simply do not like women evaluating or touching me.

However, in the last 2 years I've forged 2 close friendships with two women I've met through our kids interactions. These friendships have been very important in helping me explore closer relationships and re-balance my life this past year. I am very thankful that as I crawled out of my isolation and depression these friends were there and willing to get to know me.

[Kiya]

The only flashback I have had in response to a professional was with a woman (in a massage). I have had massages with men on several occasions, and unfortunately several with women - and i hate them with women. But I felt that one female massage therapist would not respect my boundaries and forced me into a very uncomfortable situation which i could not say no in.

[crazybones]

well that is normal it depends on how ur life has been altered by this that could make it good or bad

[kim_johnson]

I tend to get on better with males as well. I think that part of it is about this male ethos of telling you to your face if they have a problem, and then moving on (quite genuinely) whereas females are more likely to gripe behind your back and be sickly sweet to your face...

My mother was very stern and I guess I associate such qualities as caring, tenderness etc with males rather than females.

I think (somewhat sadly) that there is also something nice about guys in the sense that I'm female and so they take extra special care to be kind and nice to me and to look out for me. More than they would for other guys. Females are more likely to see your presence as a threat for male attention, however. So... Easier to get on with guys (I feel much more secure if I think that people are looking out for me) whereas females seem to be more wary of me (which tends to lead to their trying to be 'better' than me and / or their feeling insecure around me).

I think it is sad... I'm meeting people here who are breaking that mold :-) Having female friends etc. But I do tend to find that female friendships come harder... Especially with females who tend to get on better with guys... Because then the female friendships tend to take on competitive overtones...

[kim_johnson]

What does sexy mean if it doesn't mean 'sexual object'?

I don't see how it is appropriate to present oneself in that way in public...

But I appreciate that this isn't at all the standard attitude of society...

[Mouse_]

I use to detest women but also want them so bad...since working with my female therapist I have come to love women,, I love what creatures of strenght we are!!! ...

[Merlin]

Why does sexy have to mean sexual object? What if I say attractive and feminine, does that also mean sexual object? I'm sorry I don't agree with this opinion, that women who do not dress like men, with the clothes fitted more properly to a woman's body, are provocative and inappropriate. I'm not saying boobs coming out of their shirts or skin tight pants are appropriate, but there is surely an appropriate medium.

[kim_johnson]

>... women who do not dress like men, with the clothes fitted more properly to a woman's body, are provocative and inappropriate.

I never said that. I don't think that anybody here said that...

[Merlin]

I'm sorry.

I guess I'm referring back to a previous thread.

[sunrise]

I used to be more comfortable with men too. Men were often my best friends. I never got really close to women. But I have experienced some growth in recent years in this area. Yay, I'm GROWING!

When I first started seeing my current T, we talked about this, how I was having some closer friendships with women and also drawing closer to female relatives, and this was unusual for me. I was finding there were great rewards and I was able to do it. He told me that this is often the case with women in middle age (I am in my forties). They find deeper relationships with other women during this time, some for the first time. That was really interesting to me. I guess I am a prime example. I am glad that I now have some closer relationships with women. It is fun and I get different things than I do from men. It's cool to be able to do both! So all those out there who are like how I was--having men as friends preferentially--you may change as time passes!

[MissCharlotte]

I think this "offshoot" discussion of sexy and how we dress is interesting. I am overweight and have negative body images. I have been working on accepting my body as "my oldest frient" as Bellaruth Naparstek says. The one time I discussed body image with T, I flipped out, dissociated and lost it completely!

I do think that when we say something is "sexy" we mean it is appealing in a way that attracts us and maybe raises our hormone levels a tad. For example, cars are often thought of a sexy.

I used to wear loose clothing all the time and dressed neutral. When I was younger tho, I wore attractive clothing. However i ALWAYS wore and still wear lipstick. I get my toenails done in the summer and I shave my pits and legs. LOL

Recently I lost a few pounds and tho I am far from slim I am wearing more form fitting clothes. I like showing my body! I like wearing jewelry and just feeling/being feminine. No, it doesn't mean I'm ready for sex, just that I am not ashamed of who I am and what my body looks like.

I do not think that sexy has to be equated with an "object." Art can be sexy, certain color combinations can be sexy, a man can be sexy, a woman can feel sexy by herself-- there are a million ways that sexy can be looked at/felt without it being an object.

One thing that does bother me is women who wear low cut shirts or whatever and then complain when a guy looks. What do you expect? I know that if I wear a certain outfit and get a comment or a look, I am not going to react because I chose to wear that particular thing-- no, I don't wear certain stuff for the PURPOSE of having a man look at me-- I wear it because it's what I like and what I feel comfortable in. And you know what else I think? It's not always that bad to be looked at. Physical appearance is important to me. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

MissCharlotte, I think it is awesome that you are feeling comfortable with your body.

A lot of my current body issues deal with the damage I have done with my SI. As much as I am comfortable with showing my body, I did not respect it enough to hold back from ruining it. That makes me upset, but also allows me to realize just how big the problem is and how there are no consequences that can help to stop it.

Music can be very sexy, too.

[Kiya]

Miss -
"I have been working on accepting my body as "my oldest friend" as Bellaruth Naparstek says. The one time I discussed body image with T, I flipped out, dissociated and lost it completely!"

*grin* - every night with the CD my mind says it with her and parrots her in a 5 year old way "my oldest friend, my constant companion" - like "i don't believe it". but at least i say it. Every night.
I can't work on this with t either - same responses as you.

[kim_johnson]

I don't think that anybody has said that in any thread recently...

I'm wondering how much different people are meaning slightly different things by 'feminine' and by 'sexy' and so if the disagreement is more apparent than real.

Little kids can wear feminine clothes that aren't sexy, of course, and so can adults. I don't have trouble with people dressing in a feminine manner. I'm not terribly feminine in my dress myself, though I suppose wearing fitting jeans and fitting t-shirts etc could be thought of as feminine in a way... I guess I'm just not that comfortable wearing skirts etc because I haven't worn one for a while... But that being said there really are some very nice skirts (IMHO) and there are some that I wouldn't at all mind wearing (if only my income was a bit higher than what it is) :-)

It is funny... In my department people talk about ideas / theories / views being 'sexy'. For example, four dimensionalist views in metaphysics are often referred to as 'sexy' and people get this grin on their face when they contemplate them / discuss them. Because... They sound interesting and exciting and... Could well be true... Gets the blood racing a little to contemplate them... Interpretations of quantum mechanics are a little bit similar lol.

So...

Maybe (for me) it is just that I don't like it when I notice people staring at my legs / *** / breasts. Some guys do it - and I take offence to that because I DON'T wear things that draw attention to my cleavage. I DON'T wear major push-up bras and / or things with low necks that are designed to expose cleavage. I guess I just think that IF I DID wear those things - then it would be understandable that they would look (rather than listen), however.

This mainly occurs to me because I know a woman in history who is EXTREMELY smart and funny and she is attractive, yes. She wears major push-up bras and clothes that are fairly classy, yes, but they are also clothes that accentuate her legs / *** / breasts. Her posture / mannerisms are also such that people tend to stare at her. She wonders... Why don't people listen to what she says more? Why don't those visiting proffs appreciate that she is as smart as her comments and criticisms show that she is? Why didn't she get a job in the field - she is friendly and smart and entertaining in interviews? I think that the way she presents herself (IMHO as a sexual object first and foremost) detracts considerably from the many wonderful qualities that she in fact possesses and those many wonderful qualities that would result in her being a real leader in her field if only people listened a little more and stared a little less... And I guess I think... That she does need to take some responsibility for how she presents herself. And about the appropriateness of that in different settings...

But I could well be alone in that.

So: Yes. I agree that there can indeed be a middle ground. And... I'm not sure how much we are disagreeing really...

[MissCharlotte]

KIya,

Don't you just love the way she says it? I feel like I have come a teeny bit of the way this week, tho still have huge issues surrounding body image. What I feel is like I may be able to begin to discuss some of this with T, and begin to work through some of the pain surrounding it.

My other Bellaruth favorite: "and so you are."

Sigh

[MissCharlotte]

You know Kim, I don't think we are disagreeing either. What I am hearing is that we have differing views on what sexy means. While reading your post I realized that tight jeans and a t-shirt can be sexy as well! So.....yeah, I agree, it seems as though your colleague is a bit misguided as to appropriate wardrobe choices. I went to a diversity training recently and the facilitator wondered how many in the audience had to decided whether an outfit was appropriate for work "because it showed too much cleavage?" His point was to make men aware of things that women have to think about everyday!

However, I also think that if you have a nice body men will look at it. There is a natural sort of attraction that occurs! And many men are sexist and don't "listen" as they should in business setting. Maybe you can suggest a diversity training for your workplace!

[kim_johnson]

:-)

What is kind of interesting to me is that I think there is a comparable thing for guys, though. For example, there are fitting t-shirts that show off biceps. I remember we had a young assistant professor and a fair few undergraduate females had trouble listening to what he was saying instead of looking at his arms (he was into rowing). Is that a comparable thing to a well endowed women wearing a revealing t-shirt? I think so... So... I guess I'm saying that I don't think it is an issue of sexism. Or that it might be but that there is an issue that is dissociable from sexism.

> However, I also think that if you have a nice body men will look at it. There is a natural sort of attraction that occurs!

Yeah, I think that is right. I think that is also true that if a guy has a nice body then women will look at it, however. I also think that while my friend in history is indeed attractive there are many other women around who are comperably attractive to her. Those other women don't tend to get stared at in the same way that she does, however. If you put those other women in comperable clothes and they affected a comperable manner, then I think they would get comperably stared at, though.

I know a couple of other women and know that guys have raved about how absolutely stunning they were when they saw them in a dinner / nightclub setting. Once they saw them wearing their jeans and hoodies on weekends during the day then they changed their impression from 'stunning through and through' to 'they scrub up really well', however...

I guess... I want people to be attracted to me (if they are going to be attracted to me) on the basis of my personality and (perhaps in spite of) my jeans and hoodies. It isn't the case that all guys go goo gah over my friend in history... It is interesting to me that a couple of guys have said that it isn't surprising that she has had such a bad run of relationships considering the kinds of guys who she is most likely to attract given the way she presents herself. And IMHO those guys (who see that and who do their best to have better control over their attention for rational reasons) are the guys whose opinion of how attractive I am is an opinion that means the most to me.

DISCLAIMER: i'm presenting a view, no judgements, no argument toward anyone here - k? Please, no one yell at me or get mean.. i cannot process it... but i wanted to share my ideas

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Is that a comparable thing to a well endowed women wearing a revealing t-shirt?

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No.. no it isnt the same. There isn't a history of societal pressure on men to be so fricking worried about a peak of flesh showing. we're made to be afraid of our own bodies... boob? OMG and its not just clothing... its everywhere.. there is awhole period in art in which women were painted without any nipples or hair "there." Even now... the differences between what is acceptable for men's bodies vs women's is astounding. . Go look at "old art" all the nude women are generally reclining and looking away somehow... so that the male viewers could consume the female's nudity, eyeball her without feeling as though she were looking. (that isn't my own opinion, that is one of those art-facts) We've been told what to do/wear etc based largely on men's desires/reactions/etc. Is the opposite true? Nope.

im not responding to you kim, as much as the girls/guys you describe... the first issue being, whose issue is it if Wendy can't keep her mind off of sex? If Bob wears a baggy shirt then it solves her issues? How baggy does it need to be? How do we set that standard? Kind of scary really... where that leads.. It really becomes a rapid decent into "she was asking for it." That isnt an accusation.. just think about it... how many women were judged as "deserving" what they got because they wore a short skirt... one big spectrum.

Try reading about George Sands, or exploring the history of the female nude in art... it is enlightening on the issue of how our own ideas about what is acceptable got shaped... without us being aware of it.

how do any of the women here feel about being "scary" to others? just wondering...

Miss... T is not including you in that group that he is scared of? you are a woman.. makes me feel really insecure that T might possibly be "afraid" of me... or hate the idea of working with me.. It's not a happy thought.

[ECHOES]

kim, thinking more about your posts on this and i'm agreeing a bit more.

I think it matters what the person's dress, appearance, mannerisms are saying because those things preceed the intellectual part of the personality. So if the first thing the person is 'saying' by way of dress, mannerisms, etc. is "Look at me as a gender" (sex object) then it can detract from the exchange of ideas that follow.

Over-charicaturized, a person who comes off as flirty, sexual first then attempts to move to an intellectual excange of ideas is likely to not be taken as seriously as someone who doesn't first present themselves as a kind of exaggeration of their gender.

I don't know it that makes sense.

I have to think of my T here. She is so intelligent, articulate, professional. Yet she dresses how she chooses, and in a very feminine way. She isn't young or slim. But she doesn't downplay any of her anatomy. Of course I live in the sub-tropics and the dress is casual, cool for comfort, and includes low cut dresses and tops and bare-legged, barefooted sandals. It's much different from where I came from and took some time to get used to and to accept as normal here.

idk. Does the person who wants to accentuate her body in the way she dresses making a statement--positive or negative--about how she feels about her sexuality or about sexuality in general, I wonder.

I envy and admire a woman who has it all... smart, funny, and comfortable with her sexuality. Men, on the other hand, may be so intimdated they may have to reduce it to just sexuality and something they can court, win, control.

I love this discussion!

[kim_johnson]

Hey. I agree that there are indeed issues to do with gender imbalances etc etc etc. Significant issues. I don't mean to deny those at all.

But I do think that the issue of how you present yourself / appropriate clothing is an issue that can be seperable from that. This latter one can be an issue for guys as well as for girls.

I don't think anyone has suggested that baggy shapeless clothing is in order.

What are those guys t-shirts called? Muscle t's. Why are they called that - do you suppose? I'm not saying that this guy should at all have been ashamed of having well built arms. I am saying that wearing something that makes it likely that people are going to stare at his arms probably isn't the wisest professional move, however. We don't have 'rate my professor.com' but I can bet that if we did there would be a number of inappropriate remarks... I'm not saying that he is responsible for the reactions of 18 year old girls. But I guess I am saying that his wearing that was likely to have them respond in this way. If he didn't want them to respond in that way then there are plenty of well cut clothes that are fashionable and stylish that would have been much more appropriate for a professional setting... If he did like their responding in that way... Well... I guess I do have a bit of an issue with that... And... I guess I feel similarly about cleavage. But then it might well be (in fact I'm sure it is the case that) different professions have different norms of dress. I don't really see muscle t's or cleavage doing much for the 'I'm a competent professional' image, however...

I said it..suggested it. i'm suggesting it is part of the spectrum... overt sexuality-oriented on one end, and shapeless-genderless on the other. It wasnt any sort of accusation.

we live in the real world, no doubt... and how you dress affects how others perceive you/me... but should it? Not IMO.

the whole thing is a spectrum... and yeah, i have my own personal lines and they are different from others. My suggestions are simply to consider what the ultra-conservative stance vs. overtly sexual stance is at the other end of the spectrum is before one decides where the line is for them.

muscle T's... yep, made to accentuate, but we werent allowed to expose an ankle not so long ago. In Canada (and the UK) it was into the 1930's before women were legally considered persons under the law. i personally can't put them in the same category because of that separation in the larger sense. Men just are not as fearful of exposure, as a group i mean. The perception of them as objects isnt nearly so imposed. i am certain i would be more concerned (and i have to be) about whether i'd be considered "sexy" at work then any man ever will.

should people observe some sort of professional dress which moves away from sexuality? probably.. but who gets to define that?

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But I guess I am saying that his wearing that was likely to have them respond in this way. If he didn't want them to respond in that way then there are plenty of well cut clothes that are fashionable and stylish

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a person is responsible for the thoughts/emotions of another? if i wear a clown suit i'm probably trying to make someone think funny thoughts... but how far removed from the clown suit can i go without that conclusion? Is the showing of the body explicitly sexual? In the same direct connection as the clown example? im not upset, i'm simply posing the questions..

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I don't really see muscle t's or cleavage doing much for the 'I'm a competent professional' image, however...

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oh, i totally agree... with muscle T's... and i'd agree with belly showing shirts.. or thongs over the waist band... but not with showing a little cleavage or an ankle for women... or short sleeves/tighter shirt on a man. (and wearing a T shirt isn't presenting oneself as a professional generally, regardless of tightness... but that is my own line, depending on the profession)

Samuel clements said "Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. "

btw... thank you guys for participating without arguing or fighting

oh... this reminds me... when i lived in cali, many therapists seemed to dress extremely casually... wearing yup, nice shirts which are somewhere in the T-shirt/golf shirt variety. MLP's T wears a tie and jacket.. mine wears a dress shirt and nice, but not necessarily dress, pants... professional?

i think if i had erotic transference toward him i would find him sexy.. i can say he is definitely handsome and he's jjust adorable... but either way, thats all me, right?

this is a good talk... not really what Miss began with... but cool

George Sands (a woman btw) said "...I don't care if i am attractive or not because I'm not trying to attract anyone right now..."