[MissCharlotte]

I find it simply amazing that I can get anything at all out of therapy. The reason for this is because of the complicated processing I go through..........

Often - and I mean more sessions than not-- I can't find the words to tell T how I feel or what I want him to know about me. I have moments between sessions where the lightbulb goes off and in my mind something becomes crystal clear and then in an instant it's gone. MY self definition just blurs at the edges. It's sort of feeling like I put all my thoughts in this funnel with my thinking at the top. The thinking is crowded and contains all these millions of thoughts about therapy, me, him, etc., etc., etc., Then I go to writing, in my journal, or sometimes here. This helps to clarify the thoughts.

The final step in this process is verbal -- what I say -- in session. And sometimes what I wrote doesn't even apply anymore OR I can't say anything until I begin to color. The coloring retrieves the thoughts that are buried deep and hiding underneath all those other things I thought and wrote.

Of course I just noticed I left out how I feel--typical for me as I'm too much in my head. I have been working on letting my feelings drive my understanding because I think it's in the body that all of this stuff is held there. The feeling state comes out in session.

Whew.

[chaotic13]

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I have been working on letting my feelings drive my understanding because I think it's in the body that all of this stuff is held there.

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I found this statement to be very interesting. I guess since I feel like I've been conditioned to do the opposite. To ignore my feelings so that they DON'T drive my understanding or adversely influence rational thought.

I also thought your comment about the body holding stuff was interesting too. I believe this as well. Unfortunately the stuff held seems to be in a different language for me and cannot be then expressed clearly enough to discuss in therapy.

[ECHOES]

((( MissC ))) You work so hard in your therapy, in session and out.

I journal, not daily, but often. Sometimes to process a session, sometimes to capture a session so I won't forget, sometimes to find relief from something I'm feeling. I reach for my journal at night too, for that time right before falling asleep can produce some interesting thoughts.
At work, many things come to mind and I usually come home with a sticky note or two about those thoughts. For whatever reason I seem to think better when I'm busy with my mundance and monotonous job; maybe my defences are down.
And if I don't write these thoughts down, they run away and hide.

I've tried to bring these things to therapy and sometimes I have, but mostly I don't. Or I get a very small bit if out there, then therapy takes off as therapy does.

It used to really bother me that I couldn't bring it all to therapy. I felt like I was losing time, losing opportunities; that I wouldn't be able to come back to these things. It felt like failure, but as time has gone on I realize that it's okay. Sometimes these areas are separate and I do think it's all part of the same process... of self-discovery. So, I let it be.

There are times when I think something is important or feels immediate and I want to be sure I can find the courage to talk about it, so I will write down just one or two words on a sticky note and carry that in my hand or my pocket where I can reach in and touch it and feel the prompt and the self encouragement it is intended to be.

I think and write much more than I talk. Accepting that has been helpful. Still frustrating but helpful. The process of choosing from all of this when the session begins is also interesting to notice. Gee I thought I wanted to talk about X and yet I began with Y. Defense? Reisistance? Hard to tell. Even when I throw something in out of the blue in the middle of a session it is curious.

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The feeling state comes out in session.


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> I think it's great that you can get to the feeling state in session. Is it because it feels safe there?

[MissCharlotte]

((Echoes))

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You work so hard in your therapy, in session and out.

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I do work hard, but sometimes I feel as though it's an obsession. I need to work less and live more.

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And if I don't write these thoughts down, they run away and hide.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Yes!! Me too. But I am beginning to think that if I let them sort of drift through as Pema says, just notice them, they will present at the appropriate time, especially if I can get into this feeling work the way I would like to. However, with dreams I have to write them down while they are fresh or else-- poof!

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I think it's great that you can get to the feeling state in session. Is it because it feels safe there?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Well, yes I do believe it's because I feel attached to T and safe in his presence. But this has been a long time coming and in some ways, although I've been with him 2 years in September, I feel as though I've only just begun to really just be--feel--in his presence. Sigh.

[MissCharlotte]

((Chaotic))

I was raised to ignore my feelings. So much so that I thought it was dangerous to admit you felt anything when I began therapy and up until recently. I now believe that the feeling life we all have is truer than rational thought. I know that I have spent my life separating myself from my body. T said that if I was a little girl hiding under the covers while being beat then of course I would separate myself from my body. It was a way to survive.

So, to translate what the body holds--into words for therapy--is a huge challenge for us. It takes a lot of time and patience I think. I find that using multi-modalities helps. Coloring, painting, writing poetry, all help me process and make sense of what I am feeling.

[Mouse_]

I dont believe in Highter powers or god as such, but It does seem strange how what we think we need or want to talk about just flys out the window and something else completely outside our awareness comes up in session instead and that turns out to have a deep meaning then we ever realised. Like echos said, perhaps its a defence or resistence? but I never believed in our unconsious side until I begun therapy now its like the twilight zone at times (enter with eerie music, dodododododo)

[Kiya]

Wow - i resonate with a lot of what Miss and Echoes have brought up - as well as the being raise to not feel, and like chaotic said, I tried for years to keep it out of rational thought. These days, the more i try to hold it back, the more it poors out. I don't like that the pendulm has swung into the emotional side - which leaves me feeling weak, pathetic, and child-like. but maybe if i stay in the process, the pendlum (which i clearly can't spell today) will swing back and finally find center.
kiya

This "resonates" with me also. I was trying to find the words to say how much I identified with what you are saying, MissC, and Kiya found the perfect word (thanks. In line with what you are saying, things that resonate with me are things that I "think", or intellectualize, AND feel. This doesn't happen often as my feelings are separated from my thoughts. But when they do match, it is like I really know and believe whatever has been said.

I think I told you this, but again, my T and H said things and questioned things that made me feel like they rejected the intellectual fragment. T told me that people usually don't like being analyzed, which I know is true. I analyze myself all the time. Analyzing others, though, has really helped me be empathic and less hurt when others get angry at me. If I can analyze the other person and think of a possible reason that they are reacting negatively to me, then I can concede that it isn't all me and feel like I'm set free from feeling hurt or angry. So, yes, this is a way to circumvent my feelings, but it leads to empathy which is a good thing.

A few sessions ago, I tried to analyze my T and although he didn't say anything defensive, I could tell that he felt it. It was like his emotions were betraying his thoughts as mine often do. Even though I know that I would feel the same as he did, it still hurts because, again, I felt he was rejecting this part of me.

MissC, you say that you feel it is obsessive in nature. I have been diagnosed with OCD and think that my analyses/thoughts are compulsive in nature because I actually feel anxiety lift when I "solve" something. I also am intolerant of others interrupting me when I am in thinking mode, which further points to compulsiveness. However, over the past few days, I am wondering if it is OCD or reenactments. I notice myself assertive my different fragments - such as anger, neediness, intellectual - and trying to get him to accept them. For example, SI ing in his office was my neediness fragment asserting itself after he rejected it in session. I was unable to let this go and continue to be unable to do it because he held me accountable for my actions and was angry about it. This makes me feel that he is rejecting it which then makes me unable to integrate it. Another example is when I wrote him the horrific angry letters, which was my anger fragment asserting, or aggressing, itself. It did make him angry and hurt, but he has written me a letter stating that he forgives me for this. I love the letter (transitional object) but I still am having difficulty because if he is forgiving me for showing my anger, it means (to me) that I was wrong. So, I can't let this go because I can't integrate it. So, basically what I'm saying is that I am yet unable to integrate parts of myself until he fully accepts it, in thought and in feeling. I think that evolutionary-wise we are compelled to "master" the past by trying to have another attachment figure accept what the primary attachment figure rejected. (This is what Freud called the repitition compulsion, and what is also called reenactments.)

I wrote this because I wanted to explain to you how I explain to myself what is happening to me, how I put into words my inner experience. What you and others write helps me so much! If it resonates with me, it helps me communicate my needs and explain my inner experience to others which can only be done when I can explain it to myself. A lot of my behaviors escalate when I feel misunderstood. I feel misunderstood when I am unable to explain what is going on with me, which makes it improbable that others to understand.

I am totally "gunshy" now about writing things like this because I don't know if it is off-putting to others. I apologize if it is, LOL.

I also need to say that although I describe some actions of my T that are negative, I don't expect him to know everything (even though he does) I think we both have been on a journey together. I can't help but feel that he has learned things from me and I know that I have learned tremendously from him. I told him that I like to go to a place where he often visits - it's like a not so transitional transitional object, LOL. He not only accepted this, he suggested a few places to visit there. This was so calming. This is what I have been trying to achieve by my repetitive assertions of my neediness. I now feel understood by him most of the time, but I still have things to teach him which means I have to see him for the rest of eternity, ha. There's nothing like diffusing the power differential by reframing things.

Thanks for allowing me to intellectualize, but I actually feel this too. This has helped me synthesize my thoughts and to put it out there to learn what others' experiences are. On this subject, in Kiya's words, I think my pendulum has found the center. I suspect that I will continue to be compulsive in an effort to achieve this on other topics. Until then . . .

[Fuzzybear]

[chaotic13]

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Echoes said:
It used to really bother me that I couldn't bring it all to therapy. I felt like I was losing time, losing opportunities; that I wouldn't be able to come back to these things. It felt like failure, but as time has gone on I realize that it's okay. Sometimes these areas are separate and I do think it's all part of the same process... of self-discovery. So, I let it be.

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This is a great statement. I was really getting upset also because my head would explode after therapy and all this "stuff" would surface that I then wanted to discuss and talk about. By the time I went back to the next session, it was gone or left unmentioned. This made me feel like I was withholding and not sharing enough with my T in order for her to help me. I started to realize maybe therapy wasn't about all about me expressing and sharing my personal thoughts. It might be more about getting my mind willing and able to tolerate going places where I typically refuse to go. I still have some trouble though figuring out what part of my "processing" if shared with my T could be expanded and developed further. And which is really personal enrichment stuff that doesn't need to be part of therapy.

[chaotic13]

Soliaree I like your OCD vs. reenactment analysis. I think I've been doing both. This week when I totally lost it, afterwards I started wondering if maybe I have been working WAY too hard on feeling, understanding, and analyzing everything lately. Especially since the only response I've gotten from my T in 3 weeks has been... "It sounds like you've been doing double time with the "process" on your own.Take it easy." I've really tried to not think about stuff so much...but it isn't really working too well.

[Kiya]

"This is what I have been trying to achieve by my repetitive assertions of my neediness."

Soli - you just described (tho more intellectually than I ever could) the dynamic playing between MD and I right now. I needed that. T totally gets this area.... but MD -nope. and i do feel like I am being rejected by her just by trying to have needs met - needs that T thinks should be met with ease. And thus, the parts switched, and (like you SIing at t's) started drinking. The one thing I am soooooooooo not allowed and fear I will get kicked for on Monday if i tell her.
thanks for posting that.
kiya

I just want to thank Miss C for starting this thread and for everyone for their well-thought-out responses.

I, too, struggle with things coming up outside of session, wondering whether to work those through on my own or bring them, trying to tie my feelings in with my thoughts, etc. It's so good to have PC to read to know I'm not alone in all of this!

[ECHOES]

On a kind of related note, I told T once that I sometimes don't remember much of the session, but I have a feeling for it. It's that way when I read sometimes, especially psych stuff. I feel my mind, my awareness has expanded but I wouldn't often or easily be able to put it into words to describe it. She said that therapy was like that and it's okay. She even said that her work at the (psychoanalytic) institute is that way too. That made me feel so much better!

[chaotic13]

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Earthmama said:
It's so good to have PC to read to know I'm not alone in all of this!

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I am also thankful to find out that I am not alone.

However, I ask the group.... Is the fact that we do this part of our pathology? Is our tendency to put ourselves though the difficulty of revisiting our past traumas, going to therapy to be lead into the darker parts of our being, and then going over and over and over it in our minds until we make some sense of it all ...Is this what is really wrong with us? Is this a collective condition that tends to be more prevalent in people afflicted with mental health issues? In people who post here on the Psychotherapy section of PC?

Are people who have the "Why Ask Why" motto happier?

[ECHOES]

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chaotic13 wrote:
I still have some trouble though figuring out what part of my "processing" if shared with my T could be expanded and developed further. And which is really personal enrichment stuff that doesn't need to be part of therapy.

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I think it all belongs in therapy. "Anything and everything, whatever comes to mind" is my T's refrain

[Kiya]

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chaotic13 said:
Are people who have the "Why Ask Why" motto happier?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hah - sadly, we'll never know - chances are they're not in here with us.

But I think really, it is a good thing to be aware of the depths of our being. Crazy, disturbed people, people with issues, people who work with them aren't the only ones who do this.... gurus, wise people, tibetans, most munks and nuns, and highly aware and spiritual people, as well as prophets and saints all do this also. We must be on the right track! I take some small courage from that.

[MissCharlotte]

Mouse,

Yes, I agree:

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but It does seem strange how what we think we need or want to talk about just flys out the window and something else completely outside our awareness comes up in session

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

This is exactly what I mean about getting to the feeling state and just letting it be. I think it's what is in our hearts instead of our heads--letting the intellect rest? And yes, I do think the mind works overtime to create defenses that are intended to protect it from the power of the heart!!

Peace

[MissCharlotte]

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However, over the past few days, I am wondering if it is OCD or reenactments

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes, well Soli I have the same sort of thoughts. I do believe that OCD has its roots in childhood trauma, and I believe there is a body of psychoanalytic theory out there for this. Can't access it atm but food for thought.

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So, I can't let this go because I can't integrate it.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I so get this! I hate it when there is a loose marble rolling around in my brain. I think it needs something to attach to and it hasn't been able to because I don't fully understand it's nature or context....you know? All in due time Soli.

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I am totally "gunshy" now about writing things like this because I don't know if it is off-putting to others.

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It takes a heck of a lot more than that to put me off!

Peace out......

[Kiya]

that's cuz you ROCK miss. =)

[chaotic13]

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Kiya said:
Hah - sadly, we'll never know - chances are they're not in here with us.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I needed that!

Miss C and Soli this idea that we might not be able to integrate parts of ourselves until they are accepted by others who matter to us is really interesting. Despite my efforts my to resolve my issues, that little bratty 10 yr old is still with me and pops up to run a muck. Seems like more now than before.

[MissCharlotte]

Chaotic said:

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Seems like more now than before.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Yeah, well, the cat's out of the bag!



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Miss C and Soli this idea that we might not be able to integrate parts of ourselves until they are accepted by others who matter to us

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

It just occurred to me, are we talking about validation here? Is that what we crave?

[chaotic13]

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It just occurred to me, are we talking about validation here? Is that what we crave?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
I don't know I've been thinking all week about why I emailed my T and wanted her support this past week and then freaked out because I didn't get it. Maybe I wanted my struggle and suffering validated by her. Maybe is was simply what John Dewey referred to as the deepest urge in human nature--the desire to be or feel important. I think I just wanted her to appreciate how challenging the last session was for me.

[Sannah]

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Soliaree said:
I notice myself assertive my different fragments - such as anger, neediness, intellectual - and trying to get him to accept them.

For example, SI ing in his office was my neediness fragment asserting itself after he rejected it in session. I was unable to let this go and continue to be unable to do it because he held me accountable for my actions and was angry about it. This makes me feel that he is rejecting it which then makes me unable to integrate it.

Another example is when I wrote him the horrific angry letters, which was my anger fragment asserting, or aggressing, itself. It did make him angry and hurt, but he has written me a letter stating that he forgives me for this. I love the letter (transitional object) but I still am having difficulty because if he is forgiving me for showing my anger, it means (to me) that I was wrong. So, I can't let this go because I can't integrate it.

So, basically what I'm saying is that I am yet unable to integrate parts of myself until he fully accepts it, in thought and in feeling. I think that evolutionary-wise we are compelled to "master" the past by trying to have another attachment figure accept what the primary attachment figure rejected.

A lot of my behaviors escalate when I feel misunderstood.

Thanks for allowing me to intellectualize. This has helped me synthesize my thoughts.

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Hi Soliaree, good stuff! I agree so much. Can you explain this stuff to your T and tell him that you need to feel accepted by him on this stuff? I do think that this is what the T is for. Just my opinion but when your T gets angry I think that this is his stuff getting in the way? Your anger is yours and I don't think that he should feel the need to react to it? The same with your SI ing. You are using it as a coping mechanism and I think that it would be helpful to you if he could just get beyond it and see you instead of it? He must think that if he doesn't strongly disagree with your SI that you will think that he is saying that it is okay to do? I think that this is way off. What do you think?

[Sannah]

Good analysis Charlotte!