[Myzen]

Hi folks,

I try to be generally kindly, and see other people's points of view, but it hasn't always been like this for me.

I dreamed about my first wife last night.

I was deeply in love with her, maybe too much, but I never felt safe with her somehow. A few weeks after we were married she left me, and went back to her parents. She gave me no explanation, and I guessed that it was all over and went back to my parents house to live, giving up our flat.

Amazingly, two weeks later she turned up again, and said that she had finally decided that she did love me. My mother didn't want her to come into the house but I was too weak, and let her in.

While we were talking I saw an anaesthetic mark on her hand and I realised the truth, dreadful for me, that she had aborted our first child. She wouldn't talk about it, but admitted that her father had paid for the abortion.

I took her back, against my mother's advice, and we moved to another town, right at the other end of the country. I found work easily, and we bought a pretty cottage in a country village. However, happiness eluded us. I encouraged her to keep in touch with her family, and she visited them, albeit without me. We had another child, a little girl, but still we weren't happy together. We just couldn't relate.

One day, to my horror, I came home from work and found that she had gone, and taken our daughter with her. I didn't see our daughter again for 25 years.

Last year, our daughter (R) contacted me and we had two meetings, and then she said it was too emotionally difficult and didn't want a relationship with me. I was frankly relieved, because I was finding it difficult too. I said that I fully understood her feelings, but would always be available for her if she changed her mind.

R. told me the story of my first wife and her family, which was not a happy one. As I had feared, our daughter had not been happy with her mother and had relied heavily on counsellors as she grew up. She was now living in a different city from her mother.

R. told me that her mother had made a second marriage which had broken down, and other relationships had failed. She was now alone and embittered. R. said that she was unable to get close to her mother, and was closer to the second husband (I had expected that).

I asked about my first wife's father, and R. told me that he was living in Spain with a new wife. He had left his own wife (my first wife's mother) while she was dying of breast cancer! I find this frankly unspeakable, but I knew the man of old, and could believe it.

Anyway, the present question is about trust. My concern is that I know that I was 'in love' with my first wife, but I never trusted her, and I just wasn't able to pretend, or make the trust happen. It was dreadful.

As I've mentioned here before, I made a good second marriage, meeting C. just a year after my first wife had abandoned me, and we have had such a good life together. Having another daughter, and such a happy daughter, was for me like a gift from God. I really believed that it was some kind of divine justice.

But, what worries me is the way I feel about those unhappy years. I know that my first wife has not been happy. R. told me that she is embittered with men in general, and is not close to her own children. The good part of me is very sorry that her life turned out so badly, but another part of me - I am ashamed to admit this - is glad that her actions brought her little happiness. I know this is disgraceful, but I can't help it. I'm only human.

I am thinking now that both my first wife and myself had something similar about us - we both had dominant and aggressive fathers. That's where I think the trouble started, but it's a sorry tale and that's a fact. I wonder if victims are drawn together? Do they have some horrible attraction?

Is the fatal flaw to be found in an inability to trust?

Myzen.

[dottie]

That would be impossible for me. I could never love someone that I could not trust. Bad, bad mojo, there!
Best regards,

Dottie

[pimprenelle]

Gee it is hard to answer. Do you have any idea why your ex-wife acted the way she did ? She wasn't sure she loved you, she aboted your child. That's usually a bad sign, right ? Maybe she is just not capable of loving anybody. You cannot solve her problems and it is generous to feel sorry for her, but it is perfectly understandable tthat you feel glad as well that she is being punished for all the pain she inflicted you and others. Despite the fact that she hurt so many people she never looked for help ? She must have seen the consequences of her actions at some point. Not everything can be explained by her father. You turned out well adjusted, didn't you ?
One always wonders : did I do something wrong ? Could I have "saved" her ? Didn't she love me ? Wasn't I good enough ? etc... Those are normal questions.
Only you and her know the answer. Maybe you need to clarify that with her, just to get some closure. Maybe it well help her too. It is not a betrayal of your new partner. You lived with this woman. It is OK to want to know what this part of your life meant to move on.
Last week I met a childhood friend at the swimming pool. She told me right away about my school sweetheart (a screwed-up guy). I realized that in the last 15 years I have always asked myself what I did wrong, what I could have done better and did he love me ? How ?
She told me she believed he was interested in me but that he was just too screwed up to really love a woman. I felt so relieved after all this time. I couldn't have done anything better ! It was him ! Not me ! I don't love him anymore of course but you feel like a fool. You think you were living in a world of illusions. But it was "just" a basic lack of love. Whatever the reasons for that, they had nothing to do with me.
Of course I thought about this story because of my current experience (bad past experiences work like a warning device for the best and for the worst). What brought that up for you ? Your daughter ?
I hope I have learned from this. Is it necessary to "kick" these people, to find out what they are about, if they really love you ? It seems so since your patience was not rewarded. An alcoholic doesn't seek help unless you kick him/her out the house, but this can mean that that person finds out, that he/she doesn't love you. At least then you have the truth right away. Were you understanding to avoid the truth ? Did she feel trapped ? Does she look on purpose for partners she doesn't love ? Anyway, it is not your responsability. Enjoy your life and don't feel guily to do so.

[Myzen]

Pimprenelle,

That was a wise and helpful post. If I go right into my heart I think that my first wife didn't love me. I was a good looking guy back then, and maybe that's what attracted her, but she was critical of all sorts of little things about me (haircuts and stuff) and that rang warning bells. My wife C. is never critical of me, just appreciative. It's lovely.

You're right, meeting up with my lost daughter triggered all sorts of emotions, and the main thing was a terrible sadness for my daughter who was truly messed up. She had been through all sorts of counselling and therapy. I asked what her relationship with her mother was like, and she said 'stormy'. She also said that her mother wouldn't let her in emotionally, which was my experience also.

This was validating for me, like you said, but also heartrending for my daughter. She said that her mother said she 'thinks too much' which is exactly what she said to me all those years ago. Goodness, don't people stay in their patterns.

Reading back through my own post, I can feel the emotion welling up again. From my own point of view, it feels as if I have lost two children, the aborted child, and the daughter that was taken away from me.

I also experienced loss again when I was traced by my first daughter who then didn't want a relationship. By any yardstick, this is a heavy burden of emotional loss.

The first marriage had such a devastating effect on me that I found it hard to trust my second wife, and lived in fear of losing my daughter with her. My second wife says that it was 5-8 years before she understood how bad it was for me (men always try to cover up). Even today, my wife says that she cannot comprehend how a person can cope with so much pain and still have a positive outlook. It's not been easy!! Of course this was all aggravated even more by my having a bullying father and a subjugated mother, which meant little or no emotional support from that quarter.

I can honestly say, that the disclosures in these posts only started to come out here at PC. I never was able to share this stuff before, in any mature way. Too heavy.

M.

[pimprenelle]

Don't give up on your daughter. She might need time. That's normal. Try to keep in touch and don't expect anything. Don't put her under pressure but tell her that you would like to be a part of her life and she can talk to you about anything she wants and that if she doesn't want to talk about the past, that's Ok too.
It is important to you and maybe you shouldn't take her "no" as a final answer. She may be hoping that you don't give up. Give her time. If she still doesn't want you in her life. OK. Leave her alone then. She may come back one day, knowing that you love her. That's what I would do.

[Myzen]

Hi Pimprenelle,

Yes, I left my new address with my first daughter when she said she didn't want a relationship. I steeled myself and wrote her a very warm and kind letter, saying that 'I would always be available'. I am very wary of making a move towards her though as I know that her mother is in the background somewhere, and the influence from her has been toxic to say the least.

Maybe to rationalise what she did, my first wife painted me in the worst possible light to my daughter, attributing any weaknesses she had to me. R. told me that her mother would say 'You're just like your father' if they had any problems. In the few hours we had together, I did a lot of nodding and smiling, but at one point I did suggest, ever so gently, that maybe things hadn't been exactly as she had been told. That was when the shutters closed, and I sensed then that R. would go away. She had to believe her mother's stories, for that was her core relationship, what else could she do? The damage had all been done.

Dottie - you said about 'bad mojo'. I am afraid that somehow the bad mojo could get into my present situation, and I would end up back in the nightmare. I have a superstition that there is a kind of reverse 'midas touch' at work here. My first daughter R. knew that she had a half sister, and might want to meet her one day, but she was so full of pain (and a great deal of anger - so much anger ) - I was afraid. I didn't discourage her, not at all, but I was afraid.

My second daughter,E. who has actually had me as a father, is such a happy, happy, young person. I would do anything to protect her, even from my own sad past. The question is still about trust, I have no confidence at all that my first wife would deal honourably with me, and I don't know R. as a person, I only know that she is my biological daughter.

M.

i read and reread your posts.....knowing you as i do, i was stunned to read about your past......how brave of you to share all of this with us......my opinion is that you have handled the situation with R in the best way possible......leaving the door open for her should she need you...but as you say, your first wife is somewhere lurking....can you love without trust? i would say yes.....you can love other aspects of a person but ultimately without the trust the relationship will fail as was the case with you and your first wife....my advice would be to leave the past in the past....from all that you have told me you have a marvelous wife and daughter and a good life.....embrace it.....for sure you deserve the happiness that they give you....

[pimprenelle]

Don't despair. In my experience people who don't seem to listen because it would mean admitting that what they believed is wrong, that somebody they relied on so much lied or distorted the truth, start the thinking process at some point. She won't be able to get your words out of her head, whether she wants it or not. It may take a long time, but I don't think she is indifferent. Otherwise she wouldn't have said that it was emotionally too difficult for her to stay in touch. The truth is very scary. She needs to find some courage to come back. Actually, I am in the same situation with the guy I talked about. In the past, I had also to deal with a guy who kicked me out of his office every time I told him what he didn't want to hear, which was basically every time. He didn't seem to listen a bit. I found out by chance that he had acted upon my advice several times ! I was amazed. Give it some time. Send a card for Christmas, Birthday as you probably do and after a while you can try to find out if her intentions have changed. What do you think ?

[seeker1950]

What a remarkable man you are, Myzen!
It is evident, because you have a loving family now, that you are the one who functioned from trust, love, and willingness to cooperate. The first wife was not, and is still dysfunctional. I would remain open to contact with R, your daughter. She may eventually bond with you and appreciate your many good qualities.
Can we love someone we don't trust...Of course we can and often do! In my own exp., it has scarred and impaired my ability to bond with the most trusting of men. Our upbringings do influence this, as in my case, a father who was emotionally unavailable...immersing himself in religion, and a mother who was emotionally and physically abusive, and who expressed a disdain and hatred for men. I seem to attach most strongly to the emotionally unavailable man, and at the same time, experiencing intense anxiety and frustration. We are definitely influence by the role models we observe as we grow up.
You were brave to post this passage. You should be very proud, though, of your own history.
Seeker

very feeling thread.......xoxox pat

[Myzen]

My thanks to Butterfy, Pimprenelle, Seeker and Fayerody.

What kind and helpful support! I'm open to all the advice you've given, and I agree that I should remain available to my first daughter whilst having no obligations to my first wife. Fortunately the painful feelings from these past experiences have mostly been processed, although they do kick up now and again.

Since being here at Psych central I have shared two areas of my difficult early life. A childhood with an angry and disturbed father, and my first marriage. I see this as all linked together, as poor childhood bonding leaves us open
to make ill judged relationships in later life. (seeker, you made this point)

I owe a great deal to my second wife, in many ways, not least that she was patient enough to allow me to find my way out of a psychological desert . It took a long time.

Thanks for listening folks, It means a lot to me.

Regarding the question, "Can we love someone that we don't trust". We have had some varying views on this; I would say that we can be 'in love' with someone that we don't trust (with all the agony that this entails) but to genuinely love someone I think we need to have respect for them, and it's not easy to respect someone that we don't trust. This applies not just with sexual partners. I think it's true with parents, grown up children, siblings and friends too. Trust is vital if a person is going to live in your heart.

Not everyone would agree with this, but for me, I feel that I love someone for what they are. Maybe that has come out of the hard lessons I've been obliged to learn, who knows?.

M

[pimprenelle]

I think you are right. Good luck !!

[SeptemberMorn]

Myzen, I believe that vicitms attract other victims, if they haven't come to terms with their victimization and dealt with it in a healthy way. Both of my husbands have been victims and I was a victim. Neither my ex nor my present husband has dealt with his vicitmization. I have. I know how and why.

My first husband didn't trust me. My present husband trusts me implicitly, which for me, used to translate itself as indifference. I, in turn, don't trust my husband to keep his promises, but I know that he's never been unfaithful to me. His promise breaking wounds me deeply most of the time. Even though I know that he won't keep a promise, I love him more every day. That doesn't mean that I don't often ask myself why I've put up with it for so long!

As for overbearing parents, I had two and not necessarily a mother and father. I had a mother and a grandmother. The old crone was a control freak to begin with. My mother didn't trust me any further than she could throw me... and after I turned three, she couldn't even pick me up because of a physical disability! I learned to lie and cheat and be outright ugly and rebellious just so I could do what I wanted at least once in a great while! It continued with my first husband. The day he walked out of my house was the day that I swore to change the old ways. No more lying, no more cheating, no more ugliness. "The rebel" inside me lives on! Long live the rebel! She's my life saver!

[Myzen]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
SeptemberMorn said:
As for overbearing parents, I had two and not necessarily a mother and father. I had a mother and a grandmother. The old crone was a control freak to begin with.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hi September,

The Nobel prizewinning writer, Alber Camus, was brought up in poverty by his mother and grandmother.

His grandmother (who he called 'the other' in his diaries) used to beat him as a child. As he grew up, he described how one day he was being beaten as usual with a stick, and he took hold of her arm and said 'No more'. He was finally big enough to do it. She never beat him again.

Camus was a great writer, and a sensitive thinker, but there was never any forgiveness in his writing for 'the other'. That's where beating your grandchild gets you. That is how she has been remembered.

Good thoughts, M

[SeptemberMorn]

I was told by my T long ago that, according to the Bible, an adult that incested a child was purposely forgotten, including their name; a non-person. I had already changed my name legally when my T told me that. My first name had been that of "the other." Thank you for mentioning that!

[bebop]

(((((((((((((september))))))))))))))))

[(JD)]

((((Myzen))))) there are different types, and levels of "love." IMO there was something that you did love about your first wife, at least, for you at the time you knew it as "love." It might not have been. Maybe, if these thoughts continue, you could quietly compare your first wife with the second, and how it's different love now?

IMO your daughter DOES want a relationship. She showed this by searching you out. She probably has really low self esteem, so anything contact you can give her with positive regard, will be absorbed!

Inability to trust IS an ongoing issue for those whose trust was betrayed. The younger you were, the worse it can be, because your whole life and how to learned and all the relationships you forged afterwards, all were based upon this hurt.

BTW those who have had abortions often have psychological problems because of it. sigh.

TC

[Myzen]

Gosh Sky,

You ask some wise and perceptive questions.

I would say that I did not love my first wife in any sense that a normal married couple would understand. It was physical attraction (she was very beautiful) and extremely emotionally painful. I had a feeling of terrible emptiness and loneliness when I was with her, and also when I was away from her. To my amazement, my first daughter described the same feeling about growing up with her mother.

I thought, at the time, that this painful feeling was love. Now I know different. Love is not a lustful addiction or any kind of selfish feeling. It is about caring for another person.

Regarding the abortion. When I met up with my first daughter I was absolutely careful to say nothing about the abortion. I was almost certain that my first wife would not have told her about this. I was not going to give her any more pain. My first daughter said that her mother never opened up to her about anything. She said that she only got about 10% into her mother's mind, and then she felt she was cut out. That is just how it was for me.

In my meeting with my first daughter, I tried to avoid talking about her mother,and took all the responsibility for the tragedy onto myself. In fact, my first first daughter R. got fed up with this and said "Stop apologising for yourself."

This stuff is all very painful, but thank goodness it is in the past for me.

A last point to note is that the divorce from my first wife was rather unusual. I discovered that her family had made a large settlement on her, with a flat, a new sports car, and a three month holiday in America. I suspected that my first wife's father had put this offer on the table some time before, as it all happened very quickly indeed.

18 months after the divorce, I received a request through my solicitor that my first wife should formally adopt my first daughter, along with her new husband, a wealthy accountant. This was hard for me. Her family had prevented me from having contact visits to my daughter R, playing all sorts of tricks with the court. I was finding it difficult to afford the ongoing legal battle.

After consulting a priest for counselling on this matter, I decided that my daughter's best chance would be for me to go away, and maybe her mother would settle down with her new husband. I signed the papers, and gave up my child.

Sky, you say 'sigh' at the end of your post. I say the same - 'sigh'.

It's been good for me to get this off my chest.

Good thoughts, M

PS - You mentioned low self esteem. You know, rich people can have low self esteem too. My daughter R. said something about her step father. She said, "He always wants to give me money, but I just want his time." Huh.

[jmo531]

((((((((((((((((Myzen)))))))))))))))

I have come to know you pretty well over these last several months and know that you have a pretty difficult time sharing things about your past. I wanted to say that I am really proud that you have shared this with us. We get to know eachother a little more with posts like this and this draws us closer as a "family", of sorts.

Your questions is a good one. Can we love someone that we do not trust? I think yes and no. Its like loving someone but not loving their actions. For instance, my mother used to tell me all the time that she loved me, but couldnt trust me as far as she could throw me. That would be an example of loving someone but not trusting them.

If you ask that question about a relationship like the one you described I would have to say no. I guess because I associate love, the act of love, the actions of love to be complete and utter devotion in every way. To trust another person with your deepest emotions, your fears, your dreams and to share yourself with another person in such a way I can only say that you would have to have that trust before you could fall in love with that other person. My husband is my soul mate, I honestly beleive that. We have had our ups and downs through the years but I never question, not for a minute that he is not behind me 100%. I know that he would never, ever hurt me intentionally, never.

So I guess, in my opinion, you can not love another person without the trust because I think that trust is vital part of getting to the love. Does that make sense? I hope so, I was starting to confuse myself a little. LOL.

Love,

jen

[radio_flyer]

I have to agree with JMO... Trust is a vital part of love.. To me, trust is a foundation. If you can't trust what your partner is up to or what they will do, your going to be headed for a life of heartache. Actually without trust, what is there?? Trust and honesty is very important. Lies tear down... Trust builds... Just my three cents worth ...

[Myzen]

Jmo and Radio,

Yes, I agree with your feelings, and I think I knew that all along.

When my first wife abandoned me, I had a lot of pain of course, but at a deep level I was relieved. I felt that the worst might be over, and it was! I never had to go through that again.

I always said to my second daughter, "Don't go with a guy who isn't straight with you, it's not worth it." I'm close to my daughter and I've watched her put that into practise. She can make the moves, and it's a joy to see her doing it. Best of all, I don't have to see her getting hurt! Her present boyfriend is a good one, and we all get on well.

She's good in friendships too, sidestepping the trouble and holding on to genuine and caring friends. It's like she has a kind of radar. I think that people from troubled childhoods, who weren't well bonded or socialised, we don't have that sense of what's best for us, and we attract trouble like magnets. I've pretty well sorted it now, but I still see it happening to others.

Thanks for the feedback,

Cheers, M