[Evening]

This is a topic I've refrained from overly discussing on here, because I'm really touchy about it and worry about what people say. I've talked bits and pieces about it, but never wholly discussed it. I've been run out of two forums because people attacked me for trying to discuss my relationship (or lack of) issues, okay, so I find it hard to word this stuff. That is because I really talk about it with NO ONE. I avoid it with most people, or only talk about some stuff. A lot of this is just me repeating myself, but I figured I should make a thread about it.

DON'T attack me for any of this. This is not hating on MEN, just the men that have hurt me and my family. I'm not going to be run out of a third forum for trying to get help. I'm really scared to talk about it because I don't want people to get mad.

I have never had a relationship, I've never been on a date, I've never done anything. The reason being, I am terrified of intimacy and, had some not nice things put in my head that I won't discuss as to not upset people, because that's where I really get attacked.
I get EXTREMELY envious, to the point I'm in tears, when someone I know ends up in a relationship. I always try to find the bad in their partners so I have less reason to be envious and make myself feel better.

I hate to talk about this so much, it's humiliating, I really don't like it when people say 'oh your only young, you will find someone'. It's got nothing to do with me being young and not being able to find someone, it's to do with the fact I am SO terrified of intimacy that once when a male friend put his arm around me while we were watching a movie at his house that I nearly passed out. It's to do with the fact people think I'm a lesbian or religious or a prude or can't get any. It's to do with the fact people use it against me. It's to do with the fact that although I'm only 22 now, I won't always be 22, but I could always be single and alone. It's to do with the fact I don't have that kind of trust. It's to do with the fact I find MYSELF so repulsive that I can't even think of myself in that kind of way, doing those relationship things.

There are many reasons I feel this way, I guess the main reason being all the negative male influences I've had. My grandfather is an alcoholic and has a temper, my grandmother keeps her mouth shut. So it has now become this generational thing- my mother has been promiscuous, she's had abusive relationships and been with men who are alcoholics and drug addicts. I also used to get a lot of male attention when I was younger, especially from men who were a LOT older than me. I had a lot of bad experiences just from people I'd never eve met.

Both my aunties are divorced, one is divorced from a guy who now has barely anything to do with my cousin and my cousin EXTREMELY resents him. My other aunty was married to an abusive nut job who forced her to have sex while they were married, abused my cousins, went to see a prostitute, and when they were getting divorced, went out of his way to cause my family hell- taking my cousins interstate on the weekends my aunty was supposed to have them and not telling anyone where they were (so my family would be worrying thinking he kidnapped them while they'd be happily camping and fishing and going to zoos in another state), he lied and over exaggerated things about my family in court so we'd all look crazy and he'd look like the good one.

Now my aunty is engaged to another lunatic, who has been accused of paedophilia, including apparently touching one of my cousins chest, he is also an alcoholic, he was abusive to his ex wife, and he has now convinced my aunty that she is too depressed to work and that again my family is bad, so now she has quit her job and refuses to talk to anyone in my family (I saw her at the shops a few months ago while I was talking to a cousin and she wouldn't even look at me). The reason he's done that? So that once they are married, his true colours can finally come out and she will have no money to get away and no family to turn to, she will be trapped with his **** and have no way to escape. It's taken him over 5 years to get to this point.

My cousin has also been in abusive relationships and has been sexually abused, I didn't see her for 2 years because she was with this guy (actually my aunties fiances son), he wouldn't let her go for a walk down the street by herself, he used to beat her up. She is also very promiscuous, she was having sex with her boyfriend before they were even together, she had sex with guys in the past just for sex. Now she got pregnant and was going to have an abortion.

Then there's my mothers relationships, my father, who I only met 4 years ago is an alcoholic twat, and his girlfriend thought I was calling him to buy drugs when I phoned up to tell him he was my father. I haven't seen him in 2 years now, and I rarely speak to him on the phone. He is a very pitiful man, and has a real cocky defensive attitude, calls me names and tells me I don't appreciate anything.
Then of course, there is her ex. The most evil person I've ever met. I won't even bother going into that or I'll be here all day, but I will say I ended up with nothing but the clothes on my back sleeping with no bed in a flea infested empty house in the middle of winter. I lost my entire life because of him, all my clothes, all my photos of growing up, our entire home. A lunatic.

I didn't see a lot of positive intimacy, any that I did see was just lies for control and manipulation, or when my mother was having sex with guys, She had sex with one guy in my bedroom while I was in her bed when I was maybe 10 years old, she had sex with a guy while I sat and watched when I was 3.

So, the thought of a relationship terrifies me, I CANNOT end up like that. But I have so little trust, and such a repulsion for intimacy. I feel like I'm going to end up alone and a crazy cat lady. I already have 3 stray cats hanging out in my yard, I don't know where they've come from. Plus I've had this overwhelming urge to by a kitty for myself. It could end up being 2, then 3, then 20.

The thing is, I'm starting to get very, I guess the best word to explain it, spiteful, when people I know are in relationships. I can't cope with hearing about the things they've done together, somewhere they went together, or something they received as a gift. I feel so rejected, and that lifelong feeling of not being wanted by people and not being good enough comes back. Nobody buys ME gifts, nobody tells ME how the feel, nobody wants to be with ME.
And I know it's not as simple as 'getting out and meeting somebody', I know that the right person has to come along that is willing to stick around and take my crap until I can trust them. But that will never happen. Hell, I wouldn't want to be with me either, except I can't exactly avoid me life others can.

Do I just give up and forget it, and accept I am alone forever? I just don't know what to do... and thanks for wasting your time to read this, I know I've always got something to whinge about.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by Evening

I get EXTREMELY envious, to the point I'm in tears, when someone I know ends up in a relationship. I always try to find the bad in their partners so I have less reason to be envious and make myself feel better.

Does this work well for you? I would not concentrate on other people and what they are doing, who they are with, their choices but would try to understand myself. Sounds like you have a good start, Evening, you know you want to be with someone but are afraid. What stops you from working on this with a competent therapist; making friends with who you are so you don't have to worry that someone else will hurt you because you will be able to care for yourself adequate to not get in that position or, if in that position, able to deal with it?

[Evening]

Originally Posted by Perna

Does this work well for you?

As bad as it sounds... yes it does sometimes... I mean my cousin is in a relationship with a guy, and he supports a political party known for racial slurs, including one member who is a known racist and wouldn't sell her house to Muslims. So it kind of gives me some relief in thinking 'I'd rather be alone than be with someone who supports that'.

What stops you from working on this with a competent therapist; making friends with who you are so you don't have to worry that someone else will hurt you because you will be able to care for yourself adequate to not get in that position or, if in that position, able to deal with it?

I don't see my therapist often because she is too far away. She knows everything, she has even met my mothers ex and saw exactly what he was like. I did have a thing with one guy I met while I was overseas, she told me to use the opportunity to get used to it, because he would write me these letters, and it wasn't a direct thing. I was SO terrified, I couldn't even open his letters. I couldn't look at a photo of him. That's how bad it is for me. But I did what my therapist told me to, and it started to work. Until he went off with someone else and was with her while he was still talking to me... So that was like putting salt in the wound, you know? I kind of gave up after that. It's like it's all I deserve.

I don't know how to feel better. It's like an INSTINCT for me to be afraid. When I'm not in that situation I feel like I want to be with someone, but when I am in that situation the panic goes through me and all I want to do is get the hell out of there.

[lynn P.]

(((Evening)) - I think you're correct in your explanation - the way you were raised among a sea of negative relationships, has soured your perception of being in a positive relationship. It's kind of the opposite of wearing 'rose colored glasses' and having this fairytale image of what relationships are supposed to be like. Hopefully with therapy you can end up some where between the two.

For now, I think you should focus on forming good friendships with men. Look for honest, kind men with good values, since drinking/drugs would obviously trigger you. Try not to assume the worst will happen. Allow yourself the permission to trust and fail. I think you're assuming it will go bad, so what's the use in trying.

Anyone who agrees to love, usually experiences pain and that's okay. I'm sorry you saw negative examples of relationships and I understand why you feel this way. Relationships most likely won't be perfect but you shouldn't protect yourself just to avoid that pain and forsake the pleasurable times.

[Evening]

I do actually manage to be friends well with men, if anything I may even get along with men better than with women, as ironic as it is. It's just when it hints towards more than that, I panic. It's a major trigger for me. I'll be off in the other direction. I do get uncomfortable being alone with them too, even one of my very good male friends, one of the most decent people you could ever meet. I don't like him as anything more than a friend though, although when we rarely saw each other I did. He sometimes does things like brush my hair out of my face or fix my clothes for me. I don't want to be touched, and I feel stupid for it. The feeling I get is of feeling both disgusted and disgusting. I think the DISGUSTING feeling stems from my mothers promiscuity, if you remember the thread I made in the abuse forum a while back.

[lynn P.]

I think you're correct. You never had a good example of relationships and unfortunately you were exposed to your mother and the way she behaved. So you've grown up thinking sex in disgusting and seeing it used for the wrong reasons. I don't think there's enough emphasis on the act of making love as opposed to sex. What you saw was dysfunction related to sex/relationships and you didn't see the beauty that can come from a healthy relationship. I'm happy you had good friends who are men. I think if you did want to be involved with a man, it would have to be done very gradually. I hope you can get past this barrier.

[Evening]

Oh I definitely agree Lynn, if I did find someone it would take a veeeery long time to turn into a relationship. I think, in fact, that if I did find someone it may be THE one, if you know what I mean, because that much work, effort, and trust would have to go into making it into something. We would have to be very good friends beforehand so that I knew exactly who he was, I've definitely experienced plenty of nasty surprises thinking someone was great, only to discover there was a different side to them.
He'd have to know everything. And we'd probably have to go to therapy. I don't think anyone would care enough about me to want to go through all that, I think I'm more trouble than I'm worth. And even if this person DID come along, I'd probably mess it up anyway.

[lynn P.]

Originally Posted by Evening

Oh I definitely agree Lynn, if I did find someone it would take a veeeery long time to turn into a relationship. I think, in fact, that if I did find someone it may be THE one, if you know what I mean, because that much work, effort, and trust would have to go into making it into something. We would have to be very good friends beforehand so that I knew exactly who he was, I've definitely experienced plenty of nasty surprises thinking someone was great, only to discover there was a different side to them.
He'd have to know everything. And we'd probably have to go to therapy. I don't think anyone would care enough about me to want to go through all that, I think I'm more trouble than I'm worth. And even if this person DID come along, I'd probably mess it up anyway.

I don't agree with your last statement Evening. I think you're worth it and I bet there's a person out there for you. Even if you mess up, that's okay.

[Bipolarmother]

Hi Evening
When I read your thread, all I read was "trauma" for you. Trauma from living in a world of dysfunction, triggers, abuse, lack of trust etc.

I'm not sure of your history as far as therapy or whether you see a psychiatrist but I sure hope you are getting some help. Have you ever been diagnosed with PTSD, Borderline or anything else?

There are support groups out there and I go to a womens trauma survivor group and it has helped me tremenedousely. Is there any local mental health places you can contact? Not sure where you live but you can try NAMI (national assoc of mental health) and then just keep asking questions and get contacts to your local services or groups.

There are also some good books out there like 8 keys to trauma recovery and I'm sure there might be more books that you can associate with and learn from...

I am finally seeing a "trauma" therapist because I need more then what my therapist could give me.

We can't change our genetics or our history but just the fact that you are reaching out for help or an understanding of how to live is great. There are plenty of us with similar stories and I really encourage you to reach out to local help.

The more I understand and reflect upon my past, the more I understand my present life. It might take a while but you will tackle this.... good luck...

[Evening]

I do have a therapist, the same one I've had since I was 11 or 12. But I rarely see her now because of my limited transport.
I have been diagnosed with PTSD, as well as Body Dysmorphic Disorder (thanks to Lynn!), and severe stress. I don't know of any groups to go to no. I did have group therapy in the past while my mother was in rehab, that was something I did enjoy, even though I didn't cope well with the amount of concern people gave me. People went out of there way for me there and it freaked me out, and I felt guilty, as though I was talking help away from others every time someone helped me.

[Rhiannonsmoon]

Originally Posted by Evening

I do have a therapist, the same one I've had since I was 11 or 12. But I rarely see her now because of my limited transport.

((((Evening))))

Can you suggest telephone sessions with your therapist? I have agoraphobia and that is how I "attend"

I understand you much more now. I was guilty of saying that you are young and to give it time. If I had known the depth of your traumatic experience I would not have been so blythe with my words. I do apologise,

Rhiannon

[Evening]

I don't even remember you saying that Rhiannonsmoon so it's all good! The thing that I REALLY hate hearing is 'are you a lesbian?' 'are you religious?' 'I'll hook you up with someone'. For some reason whenever someone asks me if I'm single and I say yes, they seem to be the first things said, or 'have you ever been in a relationship?'. All I have to say is I'm single and people instantly ask me if I've ever been with anyone at all, even if they know NOTHING about anything. I never know what to say, because obviously I can't, you know, go into all of that.

I only have a mobile phone and living in the foothills the reception isn't the greatest (the last conversation I had with a friend recently consisted of about 20 minutes of 'are you still there?' 'the phone cut out I can't hear you' 'hello?'). I have thought about email, but she has also never suggested anything to me when I have said I find it difficult to get there. If I see her again I might bring it up with her.

[lynn P.]

When I was younger I was raised very strictly and never dated until I was 18. So some boys in high school would call me lesbian and some girls didn't like me because the boys liked me.

Firstly it's none of their business. Just say you're single and that's it. You shouldn't have to explain why or whether you're a lesbian just because you don't have a guy on your arm. Your identity isn't your relationship status.

[Typo]

((((((((((( Evening)))))))))))). Your not alone hun, I have at times had similar thoughts and feelings. The most important thing I have learned (and don't kick me, I know this sounds cheesy and cliche) is that we have to love ourselves before we can learn to open up fully and trust and love others. I am terrified of emotional intamcy on anything past a friendship level, I know I want a romantic partnership but I also know I have a lot of work to do to overcome my subconcious acts of pushing others away and building up my walls. I was involved with a man for about a year and a half long distance, he ended up just walking out of my life without so much as a goodbye, at first I was furious, rageful, then severly hurt and heartbroken, as the time has passed (about two months now) I have come to realize that my fear of emotional intamcy makes me choose people who are never going to be emotionally avaliable to me, until I learn to work through the fears and where they stem from. So much of your posts reminds me of things I have thought, journaled, talked to my T about. Please don't give up, you have taken such a brave first step foreword to healing by sharing all of this here with us, your not alone, and I hope by sharing things I struggle with it helps and maybe can give you insight. The beginning of a journey begins with the first step. Remember you are worth care,concern and love. Keep posting, keep sharing, and feel free to pm me anytime.

[Evening]

I think it's going to take a veeeeeeeeeeery long time before I get anywhere through this. It's like a torture for me. One of my friends who used to like me now has a girlfriend, we had a falling out because he is an alcoholic and would always get drunk, but after a year of not talking we are friends again because he has recovered and apologised for what he'd done.

He's got pictures of the two of them together, I cant even look at them. It's the same with other people I know, I don't want to even KNOW about their relationships. I get so depressed and lonely, I feel so rejected and unwanted, just like I always have. I guess that's why it gets me so down, you know? It didn't matter how bad these guys were, what bad things they did, how badly they treated others, how manipulative they were, they were always more important than me, I was always brushed off, or treated like the bad one when I spoke up.
When I finally spoke up about my aunties fiance nobody listened, they said he was a twat, but that I had no right to talk bad about him because 'our family always respects everyones partners' (which is absolute bull-shazizzle, and even in cases where it IS true, they were wrong in supporting that kind of relationship and allowing that kind of treatment to occur). Now because nobody listened when I said 'hey, this guy is no good', my auntie won't give our family the time of day, and they can see his crap too, and how AWFUL that is. They are just LAZY in speaking up, it's one thing I've always hated about my family.

So that's probably part of why I get that feeling of rejection and feeling unwanted when other are in relationships. I'D like to be the important one for once...

[lynn P.]

This is how I see what's happening - deep inside you long for that special connection and you feel envious. You're inner feelings are having a tug of war contest - there's the Evening who wants a relationship and an Evening who is afraid of intimate relationships. Your past has painted a pessimistic picture and it's convinced you that it's hopeless to try. You're able to make friends but your sub -conscious holds you back and prevents you from sending out the "I'm ready for a relationship signals'. I suspect guys have been attracted to you and may have subtly sent you clues but you block them. So the reason you don't have a partner yet, isn't because you're not attractive or appealing personality wise - it's because you're not able to be open to the idea...due to your upbringing.

I don't know if you get the Oprah show in your country but she did several shows on, how to make things happen in your life. They talked about making a 'vision board' -where you think about life goals and how you envision your life. You mentioned earlier, "you're afraid you'll remain lonely living with a bunch of cats". This is obviously a 'pessimistic vision'.

Naturally you need to work on detaching yourself from the negative examples you saw growing up. The depression also fills the mind with negative thoughts and lies. So if you desire a relationship, it will take some hard work to get yourself in the position to receive this in your life. You can still start with your own Vision Board or even simply writing down positive visions of where you want to be in the future. You're already doing one - which is actively searching for the Pet Store job and requesting good vibes and prayers - this is very good because it shows you know how to make something happen. The same thing can happen with finding a special guy in your life - you need to work on opening yourself up and tearing down the wall of fear. You can't take a plant and plop it is dry soil with no nutrients or water - the soil needs to be right to nourish the plant. The same goes for you - a guy won't come into your life in the intimate way, unless you're ready to welcome it. A woman can be gorgeous but if she sends off unreceptive vibes, she'll end up alone. The opposite is true - I've seen fairly unattractive people and they have no problem finding partner because they're have charisma - look at Larry King lol. So you have the desire to have intimacy but it doesn't match your inner subconscious which is holding you back. Best of luck .

[Evening]

I do get extremely envious, because when someone is in a relationship they are with someone who cares about them (most of the time), the person they are with wants to spend time with them, go places with them, do things together, they buy them gifts, stand up for them, all of that stuff. I don't have that from anybody. I live alone, I haven't seen my father in 2 years and see my mother approximately 10 minutes once a fortnight because she buys me a bus ticket. If she didn't do that I wouldn't see her at all either. They were only together for 3 months and broke up. My mother chose alcohol and drugs over me, when I moved out at 17 I didn't even have a bed to sleep on, and no money to buy anything, and was completely alone for months at a time, and she was totally fine with that because she was able to have her beloved alcohol and drugs without me in the way.
When my grandfather beat me when I was 15, my entire family, other than my mother, took his side and made excuses for him.

All the rejection and coming off second best I think hugely shapes how I feel about myself, and it affects how I feel about relationships because no matter what relationship was around me, whether it directly involved me or not, I was never the important one, I was the one in the way. So that feeling of standing alone and having overwhelming envy while watching someone in a relationship is something that happens to me all the time now, to the point I can't handle looking at a picture of 2 people together without feeling that way.

The thing with a lot of it is, I don't even KNOW how I feel about a lot of things. I don't even know when I like someone now. I might be adamant I'm not attracted to someone but still keep getting a little bit of 'that' feeling, I might not realise until quite a while afterwards that I like them (when I spent a month in California there was a guy with us that I had a little bit of feelings for, then the panic set in and I was sure I didn't like him at all anymore, and then when I came back home, months later I realised that yes, I did actually like him, I think...). There is someone that I'm friends with who is definitely the kind of guy I would be looking for, and I used to think he was okay, but now that I see him all the time I don't like him as anything more than a friend... It's all so confusing for me. Sometimes I don't know if I DO like someone and I am just blocking the feelings, and sometimes I don't know if I genuinely DON'T like someone as more than a friend and I'm just wishing I did.
When a male friend gets into a relationship the feeling is almost like betrayal, like I'm thinking 'WHAT?!'.
Because I never manage to really talk about this with anyone or think too in depth about it, this is something I haven't really advanced in recovering, I'm still trying to completely work out what I'm actually feeling and where it all stemmed from. Obviously I'm aware or some stuff, but other things I'm literally only realising as I type.
One thing I think I might actually end up coming to terms with in the future is the subconscious wish of having a good family as I was growing up and having a really great father. I have had no father and no positive male influence. I could not name to you ONE male influence- whether it is my father, grandfather, uncles, families partners- that wasn't a drug addict or alcoholic or abuser or neglectful. Sometimes I see a father, while I'm shopping for example, and he quite obviously has a great relationships with his kid/s, and I can feel something inside that really hurts me. There is something in there that really makes it painful for me, but I'm so used to NOT having a father that I can't completely tell what that feeling is. It's like, I wish that was my father, and I just want to run away and cry. But at the same time, the feeling is really reserved, like it's there, but I can't quite feel it. Perhaps because nobody's ever asked me 'do you want a father?' 'do you wish you had a father who protected you and was a FATHER to you and didn't drink?'. My real father sells drugs and drinks and tells me I'm selfish and don't appreciate anything and sent me messages in the middle of the night that I was a drama queen and the biggest wimp he ever met because I couldn't cope with a job I was pushed into. My father FIGURE beat me and is a racist (even though he denies it) and is an alcoholic with a temper. I was so used to that I don't think I even realised I what I did want. But now it's too late, I'm 22, I've lived by myself for 5 years, I don't need parents anymore. I never even had them to begin with. And it's only beginning to hit me now that I wanted that.

With the Vision Board thing, I have in the past written down a list of things that came true. I made a thread about it months ago, that I'd come across something I'd written down when I was 17 while going through some old diaries, which was a list of things 'that will happen to me within the next 5 years'. Funnily enough I completely forgot about it and came across no less than 5 years later- and every single thing on the list came true. My list was 'get my own home, study animal care, go overseas, get a blue sofa'. I did end up in my own home, and I'm still here, I studied both Animal Studies and Companion Animal Services, I got a sponsorship to California, and m grandparents gave me their couch which was blue. The fact that all that happened, when I was being abused and neglected and was so poor I couldn't even eat when I wrote it, just seems so extreme. If I had known then that it all would actually happen...

I have written another list, but I am trying to forget the list the way I did last time, I don't want to THINK about the list or what's on it or the time I put on it, I just want to forget all about it and let it happen now. I won't talk too much about my list.

[Evening]

**Bump**

[lynn P.]

((Evening)) - I feel sorry that you've had such terrible family experiences and your parents set such a bad example. I think you've done an awesome job moving out at such a young age and fending for yourself. It's amazing that you never picked up the bad habits of your parents. In reality you're a real survivor and you're strong....you deserve a good life.