[TheSilentEmpath]

Backstory:
[Alright, so last year around this time I got to be crushing on this amazing guy I'd known for a while- quiet, sweet, witty, tall, thin, pale, Cute, glasses, coder, artist, gamer, perfect for me.
We got to be better friends over the summer (as close as can be expected for two very introverted individuals really).
Come the beginning of the school-year, he trusted to me that which hurts him the most on a daily basis..
He helped me with calculus at the beginning of the year; I visited his house once a week and he came to mine once a week.
Then one day, after studying.. he pushed me back slowly and hugged me laying on the bed. I was stunned but said nothing and hugged back.
This slowly turned into hours-long hugging sessions (JUST hugging) and a neglect of calculus almost all together.
Then around october, he got a facebook; I learned of his other best friend (another girl who lives in california), and by december he was nearly completely avoiding me. In december too, a huge fight between him and his father went down which resulted in his leaving home to live with his grandmother. We didn't tutor most weeks, his depression over the events he trusted in me were crushing him, and his other best friend was about to enter basic training (when he vehemently opposes the military)
Since December he's been Substantially worse off emotionally..

(I should mention before I go any further that both I and his other friend confessed to liking him and asked him out at separate times and were both turned down because he didn't want to create conflict (among other reasons))

I slowly got him back into the habit of doing tutoring once a week unless it was impossible.. but tutoring no longer involved any calculus and it was never at my house. We just spent hours hugging.

And then one day.. he asked all blushing and shy and quiet and nervous if he could just poke my breast (through my shirt, not exposed).. he quickly interjected that of course I could refuse and he didn't really expect me to say yes.
I blushed beet red; I'd never been in a situation like this before (at 18, I know >.> shut up) and was quiet for some time before nodding.
poking slowly turned into pushing softly, pushing into grabbing, grabbing into squeezing and pushing together and resting his face in and rubbing his face against... into what happened most recently which is what has me so befuddled...]

/End Backstory

Problem:
He's stated more than once that he's uncomfortable with he idea of a relationship, mainly because he's uncomfortable with his own gender identity and has major self-confidence issues.. but a few days ago with the fondling of my breasts I'd grown to expect.. his thumb rubber over that more sensitive area at the front of the breasts, and I jumped slightly. he did it a few more times while doing his normal thing and eventually caught onto what he was doing.. when that happened, he started tugging at and squeezing those areas (again still through my shirt) and all the while I sat there blushing and thinking to myself "is this happening? why is this happening? if we can't be in a relationship.. if he can't kiss me then why is this ok?" interspersed of course with much blushing and squirming on my part.

He went quiet after a while because the whole thing actually wound up depressing him with his gender identity problems.. he got off me and I went over and hugged him tight and we were both very quiet for a long time.. then he wrote something that literally had me sobbing.. (what he wrote was meant to make me feel better but it kind of set something off) he held me tight and kissed my cheek (twice; the first times he's ever done this) and afterwards we talked..

He Thought he had induced Multiple orgasms from me.. (because of how I'd squirmed when he touched that area I guess, and it did feel good but.. not That good.. you know?)

what this shows me is that one of 2 things happened there and the first really leads to the second anyway:

• He was just playing, then thought I orgasmed 'the first time' and Kept going.
  or
• he was Deliberately trying to make me orgasm..

and that's not something just friends do. no matter how close they are.

Then I noticed his other friend was deleted from his facebook, and for the first time in MONTHS he switched his message settings to where I could see that he was online...

I'm beyond confused- (and embarrassed to have even posted this but I don't know where else to turn for some kind of advice) especially because part of me.. Really wants this to keep going.. part of me's willing to take whatever I could get regardless of if he thinks of me romantically or not.. another other part is pissed as all hell off.. because I haven't so much as had my first kiss yet and he knows this and he was trying to do that and somehow thinks that that is less embarrassing than a lips-to-lips kiss.. another part is hopeful.. because this seems like it Could be such a huge step towards a relationship with him (and this in fact is more relationship-like than any Actual relationship I've been in previously) and the last part is nervous.. because I'm sure he'll try to do this the next time I come over and I'm not sure I want him to if he can't say we're in a relationship or at the very least just kiss me.

[TheSilentEmpath]

I was hoping someone would be able to look past the awkwardness of this and respond but 30 views later and I've yet to get some advice..

[BleedingDestruction]

I'm sorry you're so confused. The best advice I can give is to stop the touching part of your relationship until you are certain of what exactly your relationship is and what both of you want from this.

[Confusedinomicon]

I agree with Bleeding!

[Mindinpieces]

Sorry you find yourself in this situation. However like others posts you need to stop the touching first and foremost. It’s hard to see past that possible (we could end up in a relationship thing) and properly look at this from all aspects. I say this because something sort of similar happened between me and a guy. So sorry if I am of no help or totally got this wrong. I have only ever been with one guy and unfortunately done everything with him so I am probably not the best advisor for you.

You need to let him know that yes it was fine for him to touch you that time but it was a one off. Or if you really regret it tell him you found that situation uncomfortable (explain honestly why) because if you don’t he’s only going to see it as it’s fine to experiment with you. Now please don’t think I mean this in a harmful way but even if he likes you at this point it seems his more concerned about his sexuality and what gets him going. Which isn’t fair on you because it’s only going to cause you heart ache and regret, if things turn out to be he only wanted to see how he felt and used you. However he could see you as a friend that could turn into being in a relationship with. It sounds as if you have some good aspect to interacting with one another in platonic sense. Even so letting him touch you will not help because even if in future you start a relationship this will only turn it sour as it will end up feeling like he doesn’t care for you or only see’s you as way to get off. I ended up being that to the guy I thought cared for me. However the guy you like may not be like that. Everyone is different I am only using my experience to try and relate and advise you as best I can.

You have to try and think about this from all aspects. Try writing how you feel about this because it’s easy to think he could care, why can’t I have that sort or relationship, we are young and it’s ok to do those things, we are being responsible. If you listen to those voices in your head that tell you what you want to hear about how you would like to see this turn out. You could blindly end up regretting and causing yourself a lot of emotional pain. Not just emotionally, things can get out of hand physically and you need to that responsibility and not let that happen or if it does be prepared.

Try to write down - How do I feel about him? – How would I feel if he wants relationship with me? – Am I mentally in a place for a relationship at this moment myself? – What would I want from a relationship with him? – Am I able to care for him and support him? – If it turns out that’s not how he sees me, can we still be friends? You have to ask yourself things like this because it’s easy to overlook how you really feel because you got caught up in the moment and didn’t really what to see anything other than what you thought would make you happy and wanted. This is what I done and I lost what little self-respect I had for myself because I didn’t stop and think.

It does sound like you are responsible and know yourself well but everyone sometimes misjudges things. If he truly cared for you he would respect you and not over step any line. If you both cared the same for one another then it wouldn’t matter if you waited. Before letting one another know you might like to be in a relationship together. That person would still care for you in future, if not a little stronger because you allowed a bond to grow between you by just getting to know one another first. This way no one has to have any unnecessary hurt by rushing and not fully thinking things through.

You said you confessed to liking him well he might see this as it’s ok to do things with you because you said so yourself to him you liked him. However there is never anything wrong in checking how a person feels towards you and the reason why he done that to you. Also at this time it may be best to find out how he feels about you and not mention a relationship just yet. It’s best to just let your friendship turn into something more over time and not be forced by either of you. This way you can learn to love and respect one another and have a good relationship if things go down that path.

Sorry I have probably not helped you at all and most likely totally got this wrong. But please don’t make the same mistake I did and find out he only wanted you for his own pleasure and couldn’t be there for you emotionally because you rushed things and didn’t think them through well.

[TheSilentEmpath]

Originally Posted by Mindinpieces

Sorry you find yourself in this situation. However like others posts you need to stop the touching first and foremost. It’s hard to see past that possible (we could end up in a relationship thing) and properly look at this from all aspects. I say this because something sort of similar happened between me and a guy. So sorry if I am of no help or totally got this wrong. I have only ever been with one guy and unfortunately done everything with him so I am probably not the best advisor for you.

It is hard not to think of the 'we could be in a relationship' thing but my mind does tend to think things out as thoroughly as possible.. I have a Lot of time that my mind likes to wander around in.

You need to let him know that yes it was fine for him to touch you that time but it was a one off. Or if you really regret it tell him you found that situation uncomfortable (explain honestly why) because if you don’t he’s only going to see it as it’s fine to experiment with you. Now please don’t think I mean this in a harmful way but even if he likes you at this point it seems his more concerned about his sexuality and what gets him going. Which isn't fair on you because it’s only going to cause you heart ache and regret, if things turn out to be he only wanted to see how he felt and used you. However he could see you as a friend that could turn into being in a relationship with. It sounds as if you have some good aspect to interacting with one another in platonic sense. Even so letting him touch you will not help because even if in future you start a relationship this will only turn it sour as it will end up feeling like he doesn’t care for you or only see’s you as way to get off. I ended up being that to the guy I thought cared for me. However the guy you like may not be like that. Everyone is different I am only using my experience to try and relate and advise you as best I can.

He's been touching my chest (through clothes) for months, just not purposely to invoke..a reaction previously.. (it was only upon questioning me the time before last that he even discovered that having breasts touched feels good) I was a bit uncomfortable throughout the entire time he was doing what he did (not So much.. just those nagging question..)
He's said he loves me (while he still considered himself asexual); he's said i'm attractive; that he envies parts of me even..
I'm also used to pain if not regret.. i don't regret much unless its me causing harm either accidentally or purposefully to another person.. I don't see a point in regretting things i could have avoided, after all, I can't change them now...
That's not to say I'd like to invite more in.. but that I'm used to it and the idea of a relationship with him is just so appealing... This probably sounds odd what with all I've written but when I think of a relationship all I really think is of being able to kiss and hold whenever I like.. I haven't had my first kiss yet, as stated previously, and at 18, that idea drives me insane some days.. I per se Want sexual relations yet.. (maybe on a smaller level I do, but).. I just want things to be in order- my mind doesn't function out of order- I can only really think about the first kiss until it happens..
Believe me though when I say I know he cares about me.. we've been close friends for a while now.. and he knows more about me and I more about him than anyone else on earth.

You have to try and think about this from all aspects. Try writing how you feel about this because it’s easy to think he could care, why can’t I have that sort or relationship, we are young and it’s ok to do those things, we are being responsible. If you listen to those voices in your head that tell you what you want to hear about how you would like to see this turn out. You could blindly end up regretting and causing yourself a lot of emotional pain. Not just emotionally, things can get out of hand physically and you need to that responsibility and not let that happen or if it does be prepared.

Try to write down - How do I feel about him? – How would I feel if he wants relationship with me? – Am I mentally in a place for a relationship at this moment myself? – What would I want from a relationship with him? – Am I able to care for him and support him? – If it turns out that’s not how he sees me, can we still be friends? You have to ask yourself things like this because it’s easy to overlook how you really feel because you got caught up in the moment and didn’t really what to see anything other than what you thought would make you happy and wanted. This is what I done and I lost what little self-respect I had for myself because I didn’t stop and think.

'we are being responsible' just made me blush like crazy at my computer screen. I don't anticipate anything that would deem 'responsibility' in the near future. We're both too introverted and shy to try anything like that Any time soon unless something drastic were to change.
How I feel about this: I love him, I want to help him and for him to be happy; I'd do anything for him if it would only help him a little bit.. I know because of the things bothering him that sex is probably not even an option for quite an amount of time if at all and i'm very much ok with that at the moment. It's very much different having someone else that you care about touching you than it is solo... I want to have my first kiss with him before we get into anything sexual and that includes him trying to make me orgasm through touching my breasts, so I want to be able to say no the next time he tries (and i do have a feeling he'll try again) but I have a feeling i'll be too shy & not want to hurt his feelings so much that i won't say anything. Because of one thing in particular that he knows about me, in addition to his own problems.. i severely doubt that things would get out of hand physically. If he wanted a relationship with me i'd be thrilled.. I'm ready for a real relationship and I've never been as close to someone as I am with him. I haven't been in enough relationships to know what i would really want from a relationship.. I already care for and support him in everything I can.. We are friends and since he already knows I like him and we're still friends I would assume that won't be changing soon.
I don't get 'caught up in moments' per se.. my mind is always wheeling.. thinking, analyzing.. If I consented to go further or even continue the way he last did things last time, it would more-so be a decision i make thinking of him than myself. If he wants to continue it, I want him to be happy.. I just wish it could be withing a relationship if it were going to happen.

It does sound like you are responsible and know yourself well but everyone sometimes misjudges things. If he truly cared for you he would respect you and not over step any line. If you both cared the same for one another then it wouldn’t matter if you waited. Before letting one another know you might like to be in a relationship together. That person would still care for you in future, if not a little stronger because you allowed a bond to grow between you by just getting to know one another first. This way no one has to have any unnecessary hurt by rushing and not fully thinking things through.

He respects me- very much.. he's asked permission.. and if I ever told him to stop, he would... but he's quiet and shy and I'm quiet and shy.. so he wouldn't really know if/when i'm uncomfortable. He didn't mean to step over a line.. of that I'm sure.. I think he assumed because I liked him that it would be ok.. the main problem with it for me, is that we aren't currently in a relationship and he hasn't kissed me yet.. He knows I would like to be in a relationship with him.. he's known this for months, but because of the way he feels about himself he's not sure how he would handle being in a relationship.. and with all the stupid petty relationships that exist around us I think he feels a strong negative connotation for the word.

You said you confessed to liking him well he might see this as it’s ok to do things with you because you said so yourself to him you liked him. However there is never anything wrong in checking how a person feels towards you and the reason why he done that to you. Also at this time it may be best to find out how he feels about you and not mention a relationship just yet. It’s best to just let your friendship turn into something more over time and not be forced by either of you. This way you can learn to love and respect one another and have a good relationship if things go down that path.

I want to know.. why he did that, but i'm so embarrassed to even try to ask..

Sorry I have probably not helped you at all and most likely totally got this wrong. But please don’t make the same mistake I did and find out he only wanted you for his own pleasure and couldn’t be there for you emotionally because you rushed things and didn’t think them through well.

You weren't unhelpful... but he's not that type of guy.. he has so many problems regarding his own sex organ and he's so So shy and he Does care about me.. He's gone out of his comfort zone to make me feel better when i was scared or upset before.. He's been there for me emotionally when no one else was.. he's my best friend.. I just wish it was something more and with the way things are going i'm nervous..

[TheSilentEmpath]

Originally Posted by BleedingDestruction

I'm sorry you're so confused. The best advice I can give is to stop the touching part of your relationship until you are certain of what exactly your relationship is and what both of you want from this.

That's what I want to do.. but I'm afraid of upsetting him.. and he's been so down lately.. and i'm very shy in person

[Mindinpieces]

Sorry I took this down wrong line, so to speak. However my must think of your own emotional needs a little even if you think you’re ok with something the reason you are nervous is something else might be influencing you. Your mind just might not be made up yet otherwise you wouldn’t doubt yourself. You can not only make this a “relationship” if you go by what would make him happy or not upset him. Also do you really need to be in a “relationship” with him? What about if you ask him (if he was with a person what would that "relationship" be like?) or mean to him. You may be surprised it sounds like your friendship with him or it may help you see it’s best to just let things happen in time. Also do you really need to change what you have with him will this not eventually lead to you getting closer. Are you thinking too much may be, there is nothing wrong with that but you can only see how things play out in time. I am not saying by not calling it a “relationship” change things instantly to how you would like them to go but do you really need to label you and him in a relationship box. Maybe in time you will kiss or get to talk and understand how your feelings are changing and how you see one another. I think you just need to overcome that your feelings matter or may be it just confronting him. However you said he really does care about you then I am sure when you tell him how you feel about him touching you he would understand this and respect you and your feelings by stopping this. I am sure you probably know all things and I am glad you are the type of person who knows themselves just trust in your feelings and that if he really cares for you then there shouldn’t be too much problems. But communication and checking your still on same level is best. It is easy to assume things isn’t it and speculate that this is where things are going so just try to keep talking and understand your feelings between one another even on emotional level. Again I am sorry if I am no help or not understandable in my reasoning.

[BleedingDestruction]

But you shouldn't upset yourself, either...

[TheSilentEmpath]

Originally Posted by Mindinpieces

Sorry I took this down wrong line, so to speak. However my must think of your own emotional needs a little even if you think you’re ok with something the reason you are nervous is something else might be influencing you. Your mind just might not be made up yet otherwise you wouldn’t doubt yourself. You can not only make this a “relationship” if you go by what would make him happy or not upset him. Also do you really need to be in a “relationship” with him? What about if you ask him (if he was with a person what would that "relationship" be like?) or mean to him. You may be surprised it sounds like your friendship with him or it may help you see it’s best to just let things happen in time. Also do you really need to change what you have with him will this not eventually lead to you getting closer. Are you thinking too much may be, there is nothing wrong with that but you can only see how things play out in time. I am not saying by not calling it a “relationship” change things instantly to how you would like them to go but do you really need to label you and him in a relationship box. Maybe in time you will kiss or get to talk and understand how your feelings are changing and how you see one another. I think you just need to overcome that your feelings matter or may be it just confronting him. However you said he really does care about you then I am sure when you tell him how you feel about him touching you he would understand this and respect you and your feelings by stopping this. I am sure you probably know all things and I am glad you are the type of person who knows themselves just trust in your feelings and that if he really cares for you then there shouldn’t be too much problems. But communication and checking your still on same level is best. It is easy to assume things isn’t it and speculate that this is where things are going so just try to keep talking and understand your feelings between one another even on emotional level. Again I am sorry if I am no help or not understandable in my reasoning.

I'm afraid it's not so much your reasoning as your English i'm having problems interpreting. I think I understood the jist of what you were getting at though.. I know I need to consider myself and that a label is really only that.. a label.. it doesn't change the product but it would be nice.. to be able to proudly say "yeah, he's mine" and smile when people ask (because people do ask) instead of blushing softly and saying we're just friends. We do need to communicate on things like this better for sure.. but.. its an embarrassing topic

[TheSilentEmpath]

Originally Posted by BleedingDestruction

But you shouldn't upset yourself, either...

I know...

[Mindinpieces]

Sorry, I am English although you would never tell by reading anything I write. So I am very sorry if you still can’t understand me.

This is clearly something you don’t take lightly and means a lot to you. What I am mostly trying to put across is before you let anyone know how you feel about them, you must make sure you are thinking clearly/ not letting anything cloud your decisions and taking everything into consideration. You say you find talking to him about your feelings and this situation embarrassing. Well then maybe you are not fully ready and sure about how/ what to do next. I am trying to get you to see that letting this carry on as it is but taking little steps at time is the best way. To let him know you really care for him in such a way. This way you can better judge how and when to open up to him about your feelings. Allow yourself time because it’s not like your feelings or his feelings will go away next week/ month so what’s the harm in holding off and looking at this from outside prospective. To see if you really are sure this is what you want.

Also can you really take the possible outcomes of your actions. Even if it’s just telling him you would like to be closer to him in boyfriend sense. I am not saying things would happen this way. But if he is not in the right frame of mind or other things in his life are out weighting his feelings. Therefore then influencing his reactions to people. He may have reacted or thought otherwise about you but he couldn’t show you/ deal with a relationship at this present time. So if you got rejected because of reasons such as above. Could you take that and see the bigger picture or would this be too much for you by rushing things. I know you said you have told him before and he is fully aware but the fact nothing has happen so far means you just have to give it time. To see how things may change. Neither of you may not be ready for letting someone in emotionally nor able to reciprocate the same emotional attachment back. So if it wasn’t the right time, it may not mean he doesn’t like you in that way. It would most likely mean he was to shy or had other things going on, if things turned out this way.

Would you be able to build back what you had with him if things didn’t turn out as you liked them to. Or risk that things may not be the same again. However if the reasons were due to other things/situations it really wasn’t anything personal. Everyone would take it personally though and it can be really hurting to have this type of situation happen to you. When you’re rejected because of miscommunication or someone just was not ready for a relationship. When it’s hard enough to communicate in the first place like you said. Let alone to then really understand your interactions with other people and why things turned out the way they did. Can you be sure you would personally/ emotionally be ok if things didn’t go the way you thought they would. So therefore just try to enjoy what friendship you have with him and when the times right you can try again to see if you can be closer to one another.

I am trying to get you to understand to just carry on and change little things at a time. This way is best for both of you and won’t hurt as much if didn’t go right. Then to have blindly thought you could handle what ever happened only to have it crush you to pieces because you really were not ready. It’s more likely you would in time naturally end up being together by letting things grow over time. However you could also end up finding out you have a very special and strong friendship and he wasn’t the one to start a relationship with. Of course things may not turn out like this for you. Only you really know and can judge the situation over time. But sometimes you have to love that person form a distance and slowly bit by bit let them know just how much you really care.

I am sorry I ramble on and I have probably really confused you but hopefully you can sort of get what I am trying to say. Also this is only my personal view. I have only had one boyfriend however I have learnt a lot from just that. So please just take what I write lightly.

[Open Eyes]

Why cant you ask him to kiss you, or you gently kiss him? Maybe he needs you to lead a little too. It sounds like he truely doesn't know what he is doing, nothing wrong with that, we all have to eventually learn.

It sounds to me like you are constantly waiting for him to make the first move and he doesn't really know what to do and is awkward. It is not unusual for young men to wonder about breasts to be honest.

Is he the same age as you? He is shy so it may take him time, to feel comfortable but maybe you could give him gentle kisses. Do you think HE has gotten excited at all sexually?

I am wondering why he thinks he is asexual, is it because he has no experience and is just shy do you think?

Open Eyes

[BleedingDestruction]

Just do what will make you happiest in the end...

[Mindinpieces]

Please don’t think I am trying to discourage you, I didn’t mean to come across that way if I did. I just wanted to explain that sometimes when getting to know someone you have to just give it time and try to fully understand the bigger picture to things. And not let the other things that can influence a person hurt or upset you, when it really isn’t anything personal. But it may seem that way when sharing your feelings with another person. I am sure you can work through this with him. It does sound like he probably likes you but just remember many things can influence people’s decisions and people change their minds all the time, so if he is insentive he may not mean to be or there is something else getting in his way of opening up to you. Or he might just surprise you about how he feels towards you. You will know how to express your feelings to him in time. I hope it all works out for you.

[TheSilentEmpath]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

Why cant you ask him to kiss you, or you gently kiss him? Maybe he needs you to lead a little too. It sounds like he truely doesn't know what he is doing, nothing wrong with that, we all have to eventually learn.

It sounds to me like you are constantly waiting for him to make the first move and he doesn't really know what to do and is awkward. It is not unusual for young men to wonder about breasts to be honest.

Is he the same age as you? He is shy so it may take him time, to feel comfortable but maybe you could give him gentle kisses. Do you think HE has gotten excited at all sexually?

I am wondering why he thinks he is asexual, is it because he has no experience and is just shy do you think?

Open Eyes

Because I don't want to push anything he's not comfortable with on him...
I really think its more simply because of how much he wishes he were female honestly..
I wait for him to make the first move because there are so many tiny things which can set him over the edge depression-wise.. and i never know what would be ok and what wouldn't..
i talked about kissing with him ages ago before the whole touching thing started.. he wrote 'a kiss might be possible in the future but it'd be extremely out of character for me'

he's about half a year older but yes, the same age. I know he's been physically excited by it before.. but even that just makes him more depressed.. thinking about how his body reacts like that and wondering what it feels like on the other side of what he's doing.. i don't know why he does it honeslt if it just winds up hurting him.. its not like i ever asked him to..

he used to consider himself asexual. he considers himself bisexual now but won't date at all. he thought so because, being circumcised, he feels little pleasure at all.. during.. activities. and wasn't particularly attracted to doing those things or to people of either gender in general..

[TheSilentEmpath]

Originally Posted by Mindinpieces

Please don’t think I am trying to discourage you, I didn’t mean to come across that way if I did. I just wanted to explain that sometimes when getting to know someone you have to just give it time and try to fully understand the bigger picture to things. And not let the other things that can influence a person hurt or upset you, when it really isn’t anything personal. But it may seem that way when sharing your feelings with another person. I am sure you can work through this with him. It does sound like he probably likes you but just remember many things can influence people’s decisions and people change their minds all the time, so if he is insentive he may not mean to be or there is something else getting in his way of opening up to you. Or he might just surprise you about how he feels towards you. You will know how to express your feelings to him in time. I hope it all works out for you.

I know.. and thanks.

[Open Eyes]

Oh, ok, I see what is going on here clearer. And my advice on this is for your best interest. You have a good heart and I can understand how you like this young man and connect with him based on your own insecurities. As you mentioned, you are both very shy and somewhat introverted. And you are both exploring the reasons behind this.

Silent, you do have to know that you alone cannot FIX him and yes, he is exploring his inner confusion about his sexuality. And I can see that part of what he is doing is looking at you as a woman and wondering about what it must be like to be a woman. And with your own lack of experience in your own sexuality this is a big challenge to YOU. I honestly don't see a normal relationship in all of this to be honest. And this is not critisizing you in any way. This is a very difficult issue for both of you. And neither of you have a lot of experience or real knowledge about the dimentions of what is going on psychologically here.

Now, the fact that you DO want to follow a natural couse that ivolves kissing is a sign that you have some normal sense of a normal interaction between opposite sexes. And there is a part of you that is attracted to him and does want to consider a relationship in the normal sense of what that means. He doesn't really have that silent as you can see. And you have not truely explored your own sexuallity yet so this situation is not really fair to you because it puts too much doubt into the mix here.

In a situation like this, at least one party should know their own sexuality first. This is a lot to deal with and can add to your own confusion, and that is exactly what is taking place here. You cannot base your own sexuality on this situation where he is truely confused about who he is and what his own body is struggling with. This confusion he has most likely is based in his genetic make up and it is clear there is something that is challenging him. This is a difficult area and this is going to confuse you and you may make some conclusions about yourself in this that isn't healthy for you to be honest. And you cannot give him this decision he is trying to make about himself, it is already causing you confusion.

It really sounds like he is using you to explore your body for something he wants himself, a female body. And he may even end up disliking you because what he is doing is using your body and thinking more about wanting it to be his to explore and have as his own sexuality. Silent, you cannot give him that, and I am worried that the more you let him do this, the harder it will be for him and it may turn into something that you just do not have any real capacity to deal with or understand.
This is pretty deep and troubling and has no real relationship in the mix that will prove healthy for either of you IMO.

I understand that you like him because of the other qualities he has, but this trouble he has with identifying his sexuality is truely over your head. This question of his is not something you can decide for him and you cannot continue to try to do something for him that is just not good for you. Yes, everything you are saying here, "I AM CONFUSED" is the result of you trying to understand something that you truely have no real capacity to understand or solve.

His resolve is not going to have anything to do with your ability to have a normal relationship. His resolve is not going to answer any of YOUR own questions about YOU and YOUR SEXUALITY.

This situation is not healthy for you. I think that you should just be friends and leave his problems up to a professional that can help him figure this out.

Open Eyes

[TheSilentEmpath]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

[B]Oh, ok, I see what is going on here clearer. And my advice on this is for your best interest. You have a good heart and I can understand how you like this young man and connect with him based on your own insecurities. As you mentioned, you are both very shy and somewhat introverted. And you are both exploring the reasons behind this.

Silent, you do have to know that you alone cannot FIX him and yes, he is exploring his inner confusion about his sexuality. And I can see that part of what he is doing is looking at you as a woman and wondering about what it must be like to be a woman. And with your own lack of experience in your own sexuality this is a big challenge to YOU. I honestly don't see a normal relationship in all of this to be honest. And this is not critisizing you in any way. This is a very difficult issue for both of you. And neither of you have a lot of experience or real knowledge about the dimentions of what is going on psychologically here.

I know I can't fix him alone. I wonder at times if I even help him. He considers himself 'broken' and has stated such on more than one occasion. I'm pretty sure I knew that to a degree already.. but you know how when you want something badly enough your brain is willing to overlook certain things.. There's nothing really normal about this relationship.. and I know it.. he's very.. complicated and in fact a friend of mine code-named him 'the complication'..

Now, the fact that you DO want to follow a natural couse that ivolves kissing is a sign that you have some normal sense of a normal interaction between opposite sexes. And there is a part of you that is attracted to him and does want to consider a relationship in the normal sense of what that means. He doesn't really have that silent as you can see. And you have not truely explored your own sexuallity yet so this situation is not really fair to you because it puts too much doubt into the mix here.

Well my previous relationships kind of sucked.. each lasting more than half a year and going utterly nowhere. (Again, no first kiss..).. I know the situation's not fair to me, but, if you can understand this, I've been a bit of a martyr my entire life.. I'm very used to it in ways.. I take the fall for people; I continue on in painful relations even though I know I'm better off without them... I forgive many Many things that I shouldn't.. because I can't stand to see other people in emotional pain.. Additionally, relationships aren't easy for me.. I'm never.. and I mean Never attracted to someone until after I have some kind of a deep friendship with them.. there's a word to describe this is i remember right it's something like demisexual.. and my mind tends to fixate on things.. i don't know How to pull myself from someone else I care for deeply.

In a situation like this, at least one party should know their own sexuality first. This is a lot to deal with and can add to your own confusion, and that is exactly what is taking place here. You cannot base your own sexuality on this situation where he is truely confused about who he is and what his own body is struggling with. This confusion he has most likely is based in his genetic make up and it is clear there is something that is challenging him. This is a difficult area and this is going to confuse you and you may make some conclusions about yourself in this that isn't healthy for you to be honest. And you cannot give him this decision he is trying to make about himself, it is already causing you confusion.

Base my sexuality on this? I know how I feel and who towards.. I've been in 3 relationships prior to my interest with him... even if I know I often choose people who have excessive personal problems, which, I know, is not good for me.. It's not that i specifically seek them out.. it's that we're able to bond as friends because of things like that and.. the whole demisexual bit.
Yes, his genetic makeup is the major factor and driving component of his depressions.. it is essentially what's challenging him.. It does confuse me because he changes so drastically over such a shot amount of time.. for a while he can be happy.. and the perfect guy I got to be friends with over the course of last school year.. and then without warning something will depress him horribly and there's nothing I or anyone else can do to lift his spirits.
What do you mean by giving him the decision he's trying to make about himself?

It really sounds like he is using you to explore your body for something he wants himself, a female body. And he may even end up disliking you because what he is doing is using your body and thinking more about wanting it to be his to explore and have as his own sexuality. Silent, you cannot give him that, and I am worried that the more you let him do this, the harder it will be for him and it may turn into something that you just do not have any real capacity to deal with or understand.
This is pretty deep and troubling and has no real relationship in the mix that will prove healthy for either of you IMO.

It's been going on for more than half a year now.. slowly progressing.. but I'm going to use every ounce of courage I have to try and lay a line down when next we meet.. I won't let him do something like that to me again without some real change.. in a few areas I'd rather not even get into.. it seems like everyone I mention him to comes to dislike him for things he's done.
It's not going to be easy for him to understand. He see's us as 'different than most friends; closer than most friends'... and When I asked to be able to kiss him on the cheek he initially wrote it off altogether because he would be too embarrassed and it would be 'overly friendly' it was only later that I even remembered even the breast touching bit and pointed it out to him, he said '... well.. yeah but. that's science. i'm investigating' I said, 'well i've never been able to just kiss a guy's cheek before so mine could be dubbed scientific as well' and after a second's consideration he accepted..
None of my previous relationships were mentally healthy either.. but once i fixate on someone.. i don't know how to defixate without being rejected or the relationship trying and failing.. and though he wrote he's not comfortable with the idea of a relationship he 'wouldn't rule out a kiss in the future' and has done so many things indicative in a more normal sense of wanting something more.. so i can't help having that illogical hope that won't let me let go of him.

I understand that you like him because of the other qualities he has, but this trouble he has with identifying his sexuality is truely over your head. This question of his is not something you can decide for him and you cannot continue to try to do something for him that is just not good for you. Yes, everything you are saying here, "I AM CONFUSED" is the result of you trying to understand something that you truely have no real capacity to understand or solve.

His resolve is not going to have anything to do with your ability to have a normal relationship. His resolve is not going to answer any of YOUR own questions about YOU and YOUR SEXUALITY.

This situation is not healthy for you. I think that you should just be friends and leave his problems up to a professional that can help him figure this out.

Open Eyes

I can't just leave him.. he has deep trust problems with doctors, and would never be comfortable enough to tell a professional how he felt... he loathes the unnatural so won't so much as consider antidepressants (which I have suggested, even 'natural' ones like the st johns wort my mom was trying to force on me), as they'd make him 'the product of pills'. I just... want him to be able to be like he was when I met him.. irritated with sexism in society but otherwise mostly ok.. and mostly happy and funny and thoughtful and caring..

I know the situation's not healthy for me.. but I don't see how exactly i could remove myself from it.. i don't think i have it in me.

[Open Eyes]

Well, you have a lot going on in yourself Silentempath, and you are very smart and you are also very aware of the broken parts of people. And there is also a part of you that has a strong desire to somehow fix that. That is where this difficulty in breaking away from broken people comes from. And I have to admit that I can relate to that. But with me, I have realized that it comes from my past and my own struggles from an early age that brought this out in me. I never truely saw this before. Unfortunately I am revisiting it in a very uncomfortable way right now through my PTSD.

But this is not just me, this actually happens a lot and often many people go into practicing psychotherapy because they have this strong need to help people FIX themselves. However what can happen is a therapist can do pretty well at that but they never take time to FIX themselves. This is a very real problem, even my therapist and I talked about this.

Yes, you are a silent empathetic person who recognizes the weakness in others, because you know it yourself. But you have to find a way to first address yourself, you truely cannot just set yourself aside to fix others, even if there is a scientific aspect to it. Otherwise what will happen is you will end up with a line of broken people that you may not be able to fix. And there is also a deep sense of lack of self worth that can be connected to this. I have seen this in myself and finally have identified where it comes from as well.

Ofcourse the first place you have to start is your physical health. Because if you have anything that you are dealing with that is physically wrong that can effect your emotional health. And then once you do that, then you can begin to address your psychological sense of well being.

You are probably always going to have a sense of compassion for struggles in others.
But you have to make sure you are balanced yourself too. Now if you add into that the fact that you are physically designed to be a mother/nurturer, you just MAY have that be a strong motivation in your interactions as well. And as far as men go, this scientific approach, well, they are designed to do just that in many ways. They are fixers and doers in a different way and they can get very troubled when something is a miss like your friend is dealing with.

Now, I hate to say this at risk of you shutting down, but you ARE only just 18 years old. And this is not an age where ANYONE truely knows WHO they really are YET.
And the sexuality that comes into play, THAT IS NOT TRUELY ALL WELL KNOWN EITHER. And unfortunately we are designed to do one thing, REPRODUCE. And that becomes very apparent at some point and yet this love and relationship issue, that is something that is still a very big question mark.

This forum, is such a busy forum SilentEmpath, why do you think that is? Hmmm, must be a challenge for many people hmmm. And IT "IS" A CHALLENGE. And that comes from a lot of different messages that many of us get or do not get from our parents. The one thing that is a MUST is KNOW THY SELF FIRST AND FOREMOST.
And that takes time and often even many years. But we all have this thing we call self esteem too and often we have holes in that that we tend to think SOME ONE ELSE CAN FIX or FILL or maybe we are NO WORTHY AT ALL. And sometimes we can pick those that have LOW SELF ESTEEM thinking they are SAFER for us somehow. Oh we can make so many mistakes in choosing a mate. We can even pick someone who seems strong and outgoing, oh wasn't dad that way and we do know that, ok pick him. But what can happen is what one doesn't see is the narcisist that is hidden in that that spells out THIS IS GOING TO BE A HELL RIDE.

Knowing one's self is important and also knowing that WE CANNOT FILL THE HOLES OF OTHERS. It is always up to OTHERS to learn to do that for themselves. Love?, love a broken person? That can be a kind of hell ride too. Why?, because if you cannot truely FIX that person, YOU WILL BE BLAMED for it.

Oh, I spent many years waiting for my husband to fix himself. Oh I thought I married someone who could be my friend, I truely didn't see how he was broken. I had to find out the hard way, and it WAS HARD. And years of that is also wrapped up in the package I have called PTSD as well.

Love?, that is not about FIXING people when it comes to relationships. Though we all have our holes because no parents are perfect, we have to build relationships on making an allowance for each partner to continue to grow and it can't be about spending a lifetime fixing each other. It has to be about grow up all your life and respecting your partner to do the same.

Can I see what the dilemma is here? Yes, but I don't see you having the capacity to fix it to be honest. You just don't have the life experiences yet to do that. This young man is going to have to find his way to allowing himself to find the right kind of professional help. Yes, I hear you he is so afraid of that too. But he truely cannot ask you to be his science experiment. You have a very kind giving heart, but you are not a guinea pig. You deserve to have a healthy growing experience as well.

Open Eyes

[Confusedinomicon]

If he sees himself as trans the best thing you can do for her is to help her seek a lgbt group for support and a therapist who specializes in dealing with lgbt teens/adults. She needs to be empowered as her gender. If she feels genderqueer make sure you use pronouns they are comfortable with. Also understand that if she feels like a female she deserves to be treated as one regardless of what she currently looks like.

The best thing is to lay off being physical. Your friend needs to feel confident as their gender and be around people who will support their growth. You can be apart of that growth. Just dont expect him to identify as a male if she believes she is in the wrong body.

If you go to a uni or community college there is usually some kind of gay-straight alliance.

[TheSilentEmpath]

Originally Posted by Confusedinomicon

If he sees himself as trans the best thing you can do for her is to help her seek a lgbt group for support and a therapist who specializes in dealing with lgbt teens/adults. She needs to be empowered as her gender. If she feels genderqueer make sure you use pronouns they are comfortable with. Also understand that if she feels like a female she deserves to be treated as one regardless of what she currently looks like.

The best thing is to lay off being physical. Your friend needs to feel confident as their gender and be around people who will support their growth. You can be apart of that growth. Just dont expect him to identify as a male if she believes she is in the wrong body.

If you go to a uni or community college there is usually some kind of gay-straight alliance.

He doesn't identify that way.. he just wishes he had been born female for a variety of reasons he's researched.. things I won't go into because with the overwhelming weight of it I'm convinced more than half of men who knew it all would depress them-self nearly as badly as he is. There's a gay-strait alliance at school but he considers himself so much a freak just for wishing he were a girl.. he'd never join; he's much too shy to do anything with a community really.. and try as i might to convince him that it's not freakish and not Terribly abnormal he's gotten to this point where he really only believes himself and what he researches no matter what someone tells him. He would never undergo surgery; finds it appalling to even consider, won't take any type of pill.. i offered to go out of my way and purchase that nono thing for him just so he wouldn't have to deal with the facial/body hair that bothers him so much...
And I'm not the one doing the physical things- that's all him.
On Rare occasions he prefers the use of feminine pronouns.. and I appease him when he does..

[TheSilentEmpath]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

Well, you have a lot going on in yourself Silentempath, and you are very smart and you are also very aware of the broken parts of people. And there is also a part of you that has a strong desire to somehow fix that. That is where this difficulty in breaking away from broken people comes from. And I have to admit that I can relate to that. But with me, I have realized that it comes from my past and my own struggles from an early age that brought this out in me. I never truely saw this before. Unfortunately I am revisiting it in a very uncomfortable way right now through my PTSD.

I really think it has to do with a fear of hurting them more by leaving them than of not fixing them.. though I'd love to see them grow happier, and I'd Love to be the one to have helped them... i'm more afraid of upsetting them worse by leaving them.. I'm sorry to make you revisit unpleasant experiences/memories..

[QUOTE]
But this is not just me, this actually happens a lot and often many people go into practicing psychotherapy because they have this strong need to help people FIX themselves. However what can happen is a therapist can do pretty well at that but they never take time to FIX themselves. This is a very real problem, even my therapist and I talked about this.
[ /QUOTE]

I'll admit.. with the economy and not wanting to burn myself out in art I've been heavily considering switching my major to psychology.. i already intended psychology to be my minor..

Yes, you are a silent empathetic person who recognizes the weakness in others, because you know it yourself. But you have to find a way to first address yourself, you truely cannot just set yourself aside to fix others, even if there is a scientific aspect to it. Otherwise what will happen is you will end up with a line of broken people that you may not be able to fix. And there is also a deep sense of lack of self worth that can be connected to this. I have seen this in myself and finally have identified where it comes from as well.

I've done just that for many year already and live with a constant threat of sinking into that deep depression that's always so close.. but I don't know another way to live. I feel guilty putting myself first, as though there's something very wrong with it. I've already felt on several occasions like somehow it was me infecting the people I love with depression.. since it only ever seems to get worse as time goes by while we're close.. I've thought to myself that it might be much better for them no matter how it might sting at first and how much it would destroy me.. if i left them..

Ofcourse the first place you have to start is your physical health. Because if you have anything that you are dealing with that is physically wrong that can effect your emotional health. And then once you do that, then you can begin to address your psychological sense of well being.

I'm not sure when exactly my physical problems can be addressed though.. (my next appointment is next friday) and I can't put my life and my friend's mental health on the line in the meantime..

You are probably always going to have a sense of compassion for struggles in others.
But you have to make sure you are balanced yourself too. Now if you add into that the fact that you are physically designed to be a mother/nurturer, you just MAY have that be a strong motivation in your interactions as well. And as far as men go, this scientific approach, well, they are designed to do just that in many ways. They are fixers and doers in a different way and they can get very troubled when something is a miss like your friend is dealing with.

I can't remember a time I was properly balanced to be honest.. I've always been a bit off emotion-wise, but I Want to be there for people.. perhaps it is that mothering/nurturing instinct but I want to be able to take those i care about's pains away. It bothers him even more knowing he cant help but respond in a more masculine way to things because of how his brain is wired too.. there's so much to do with his gender that pains him i don't know that there is a way for anyone to help him.. I've been utterly terrified he was going to kill himself on a number of occasions already..

Now, I hate to say this at risk of you shutting down, but you ARE only just 18 years old. And this is not an age where ANYONE truely knows WHO they really are YET.
And the sexuality that comes into play, THAT IS NOT TRUELY ALL WELL KNOWN EITHER. And unfortunately we are designed to do one thing, REPRODUCE. And that becomes very apparent at some point and yet this love and relationship issue, that is something that is still a very big question mark.

I know that over the course of my life I will continue to change, and at different parts of my life I will hold different thoughts and ideas on some things I hold certain thoughts to now, but I believe with my level of introversion and the self-reflection that I Constantly do.. that I know who I am Now fairly well.
No, I don't know what 25 year old me is going to be like yet- I'm no soothsayer. I don't know what I'll be like at 30 or 40 or beyond.. but I think I understand myself well enough to know who I am. I'm not the kind of person who regrets things I choose so long as they don't hurt Others. The only time I feel regret for my actions is when I hurt another. Some of the things I've done in like have hurt me and crippled me in many ways.. but I'm not the person who goes and ruminates over 'what could I have done differently' and I never have been.. I think that so long as I can see someone else feeling happy or ok, that I can pretty much live with any choice I make. My dad went slack-jawed when I told him this.. but it was in middle school that I reached a point in my life where I didn't even Live for myself. I lived so that my death wouldn't hurt others who might have cared no matter how deeply I wished I could stop thinking and stop feeling completely.
I won't go into the complete details of my last relationship but it was long distance and 100% online.. and he pushed me to develop my sexual side.. to learn what I liked and didn't like even in more.. embarrassing areas of the whole thing. Though I'm sure I'll refine my tastes through Actual experience.. I do have at least an idea of what I want there as well.. I know that the actual experience is significantly different. For instance whenever I would touch my breasts on my own previously I felt next to nothing, but when he touched me it was different.. I think it's mainly because Knowing what I'm about to do/doing prevents me from focusing on the feeling of it until the very last second.. I know there's a Lot of room for change as my sexuality goes because I don't really have any physical experience here. But I do know general things.. such as my own turn-ons and offs.
Though I may seem young to say such, it's not uncommon to hear in girls much younger than me in this area.. I love. Love.. the idea of being a mother.. of holding a child inside me and raising and loving and holding him or her and doing everything I can to make sure.. that their life is happy and fulfilling, no matter what they choose to do.. but I know that before I'm financially secure is an utterly inappropriate time to intentionally conceive or take actions to conceive any child (though were it to happen I would do nothing less than accept the child whole-heartedly) What I mean to say through this is that while I realize the primary function of any being capable of reproduction Is to reproduce by nature, and while the idea of nurturing a child bring a warm smile to my face, that I have no intention of engaging in reproductive activity of my own will anytime terribly soon.

This forum, is such a busy forum SilentEmpath, why do you think that is? Hmmm, must be a challenge for many people hmmm. And IT "IS" A CHALLENGE. And that comes from a lot of different messages that many of us get or do not get from our parents. The one thing that is a MUST is KNOW THY SELF FIRST AND FOREMOST.
And that takes time and often even many years. But we all have this thing we call self esteem too and often we have holes in that that we tend to think SOME ONE ELSE CAN FIX or FILL or maybe we are NO WORTHY AT ALL. And sometimes we can pick those that have LOW SELF ESTEEM thinking they are SAFER for us somehow. Oh we can make so many mistakes in choosing a mate. We can even pick someone who seems strong and outgoing, oh wasn't dad that way and we do know that, ok pick him. But what can happen is what one doesn't see is the narcisist that is hidden in that that spells out THIS IS GOING TO BE A HELL RIDE.

I can understand why many people may have a trouble with this, and why many more may simply hold that deathly curiosity so common in human nature. Of course a situation like this isn't something that's utterly strait-forward with all the deep rooted emotions and complications involved.. yes, a situation like this can easily be viewed as a challenge. Knowing yourself is, of course, fundamental for dealing with your own emotions and challenges. Yes, I may develop a more complete understanding of myself with time and yes who I am may even change over time, but I still believe that I know enough about myself to make choices that I can live with in the meantime. In fact, it may be through these decisions that I come to learn more about myself and if I prevent myself from having the experiences, how then would I grow to better understand myself? I don't assume that there's anything anyone else can 'fix' about me, I know that we are the only people in our lives who ultimately make the decisions we do, so only I can 'fix' myself, and while I don't consider myself Truly broken, I also don't consider myself of any true importance (though this from deep thinking on the world, the universe and more..). I don't specifically go after people with low self-esteem, but having low self-esteem myself makes it easier to relate to those people. A narcissistic relationship can be an utter hell-ride.. I'll agree there in a heartbeat.

Knowing one's self is important and also knowing that WE CANNOT FILL THE HOLES OF OTHERS. It is always up to OTHERS to learn to do that for themselves. Love?, love a broken person? That can be a kind of hell ride too. Why?, because if you cannot truely FIX that person, YOU WILL BE BLAMED for it.

I know ultimately only he can help himself, but I want to be able to be there for him while he figures out how to do that.. Loving a broken person is a hell-ride. and Rather then being blamed, I'd think I just blame myself out of habit.

Oh, I spent many years waiting for my husband to fix himself. Oh I thought I married someone who could be my friend, I truely didn't see how he was broken. I had to find out the hard way, and it WAS HARD. And years of that is also wrapped up in the package I have called PTSD as well.

Love?, that is not about FIXING people when it comes to relationships. Though we all have our holes because no parents are perfect, we have to build relationships on making an allowance for each partner to continue to grow and it can't be about spending a lifetime fixing each other. It has to be about grow up all your life and respecting your partner to do the same.

You're right, love's not about 'fixing' a person, but It is about supporting a person and helping a person in all that you can do.

Can I see what the dilemma is here? Yes, but I don't see you having the capacity to fix it to be honest. You just don't have the life experiences yet to do that. This young man is going to have to find his way to allowing himself to find the right kind of professional help. Yes, I hear you he is so afraid of that too. But he truely cannot ask you to be his science experiment. You have a very kind giving heart, but you are not a guinea pig. You deserve to have a healthy growing experience as well.

Open Eyes

Being utterly honest with myself I don't think I would take the steps necessary to change this situation either, but I am going to Try to set down a line the next time we meet.

[TheSilentEmpath]

So, I haven't visited him yet... but I confronted him on it..
and he basically confessed that he wasn't really thinking about what he was doing to Me and was more-so just imagining what it would be like if he were me and what he'd be feeling at that point.

[Open Eyes]

Yes, that is what I thought was happening, even the holding of you (hugging) is his longing to BE you in many ways. It is sad really, but not something you can truely fix for him really.

I am sorry that you have this challenge Silent. I know that you have such a good heart and you truely feel for others.

This aspect of you, well, I was thinking about you today. And you have what I would call really strong nurturing abilites and sensitivities. And I have seen this in animals too, for example horses that have great instincts and talent for mothering. Some mares (female horses) are truely good at that, that is thier gift. And some women are truely gifted mothers as well Silent. Women are truely designed to be intutive because human children take so much time to grow and they depend on their mothers to be intuitive about their needs. So many women are just designed to be this way, not all though, some women are not good mothers to be honest. But some women are truely talented and have great abilities and senses to be wonderful mothers.

And part of that is also the willingness to set herself aside for the welfare of her child too. And that happens in many mammels and some mother mammels will stand in defense of their offspring putting their lives in danger even if the offspring is already dead. That is how powerful some of regular mammel mother's instincts are.

And I am sure that is something about you, your essense that is very strong and he also might be picking up on that as well. There is an essance about these women that have so much natural instinct for good mothering.

Not every woman is meant to have some big ole career and high life. Some women are very fulfilled with child bearing and nurturing. I have to say, I honestly enjoyed every minute of raising my child, I just loved it. Not all mothers are like that to be honest. I was very content and fulfilled to do that, would have loved having more children to be honest.

Something to think about. But make sure you find ways to love and care for yourself because children imprint everything. But you have time to work on that. And good mothers are not stupid either.

(((Hugs)))
Open Eyes