[guilloche]

I'm a bit depressed after therapy this week. I had told my therapist (who I've only seen ~5 times now) that I wasn't sure if I should call my dad for his birthday this year.

Why? He asked...

- My dad took my college money, and then kicked me out of the house when I was in high school (sent me to live with my mom)

- My dad didn't call me on my birthday this year (I turned 40). He hasn't called me most years.

- At the end of last year, my dad asked me and my sister for money. We helped him out... and he hasn't talked to us since. Once he found a job (and thus didn't need us anymore) he stopped calling and stopped returning calls. Back in Dec/Jan (before my birthday), I had called to tell him congratulations and talk about the new job - no call back. No calls since.

- This isn't the first time, when I was just out of college, he had called to try to borrow money (which I didn't have at the time).

- Also, his mother totally cut all of us (my siblings and me included) out of her life (she's dead now) b/c my father borrowed money from her and didn't pay it back.

- I'm also getting constant call for debt collectors looking for him. I work from home, it's frustrating and distracting and a pain.

Overall, I feel *exhausted* from getting my hopes up that I'll be able to have a relationship with my father, then having him drop off the face of the planet again. Repeatedly. I feel like I can't really hold up a one-sided relationship where he thinks my sole purpose in life is to be his financial support. I don't think that's healthy for me or fair.

My only concerns are:
- my dad is getting older (66) and not in good health. I don't know if I'd regret not making more of an effort if he were to die tomorrow.
- growing up, I liked my dad much more than my mom... we have more in common.

So what would you do? The therapist says "two wrongs don't make a right" and that I should just go ahead and call. I'm thinking of compromising and just sending an email. I have no idea if he still has access to a computer/email though. To be honest, I have no idea if he's even alive... nobody has talked to him recently (no surprise) - my brother hasn't talked to him in ~6 years!!!

Any advice? Thanks...

[lilypup]

I'd send a card, personally. This man sounds like a "toxic" parent. Get him out of your emotional space. You're 40. It doesn't sound to me like there is much chance of developing a relationship with him (other than him using you as a bank).
I got rid of mom emotionally many years ago. It was the best thing I ever did, not only for myself but for my children. Now she is dying of lung cancer and because there is no one else, I am taking care of her finances. I have put her in a beautiful, clean, and organized private care home. I watch over her care. She is in hospice care and has a nurse check her every week. She has a social worker and a priest. She and her home are monitored by the state. This is much more than she did for me when she allowed my stepdad to abuse me for 6 years. I see her once a week and give her a hug but I am dead emotionally around her. I have done my duty by her and when she dies it's okay.
If that sounds cold, am sorry. I just don't believe in toxic people.

[guilloche]

Thanks Lilypup... I very much appreciate the advice and your perspective from having to deal with your mom. I think I'm just so disappointed that this new T rushed to "two wrongs don't make a right... just call him" and didn't seem to grasp the amount of disappointment already in this relationship.

Thanks... and no, your comments about your mom don't sound cold at all to me. I get it, and I agree... you have to take care of yourself and your family.

[hvert]

I think this is one of those things that only you can answer. I mean, everything is, in the end, but there is just so much nuance to stuff like this.

Your father reminds me of my father in a lot of ways-- they share some of those bullet points and are about the same age.

I go back and forth with mine. Right now I am just over a year of having no contact with him-- so given what you wrote, I would not call. He didn't call you on your birthday - why should you call him on his? Not to be petty or anything, but isn't he demonstrating that birthdays aren't important to him when he does that? Mine does the same thing, btw - and he will even get both the birthday and the child wrong.

In the past, I have gone through years where I do have contact because I worry that he will die and I will feel bad if I don't maintain some kind of relationship -- but, for me, I am at the point where I have given up. My father is incapable of having a relationship that isn't 100% about him and his wants.

If an email feels right to you, do that. If you don't want to acknowledge his birthday at all, you don't owe him anything.

Just curious -- would your father notice if you didn't say anything? Mine gets really upset if we don't acknowledge him, which just makes me roll my eyes given how he treats his kids.

[guilloche]

Thanks Hvert... It really does help to hear others' experiences with this stuff.

Yeah, I need to think about it. Part of me wants to call... just to make it the last call. This way I can tell T, "There, I called, he didn't answer... I did my part, and I'm done now."

It just feels like... how much am I really expected to do for a one-sided relationship? Shouldn't T be a supporting me a bit more in this rather than quoting Ann Landers? Hmmm...

Hvert... that's interesting that your dad gets upset that you don't call. My dad totally doesn't. He does tend to be depressed so maybe he really just doesn't care. I have trouble understanding, because he does mental health counseling (!) - yet has been depressed for as long as I can remember. I don't know. But no, in the past, he's never said anything or given any sign of being hurt/upset by not getting a call for his birthday... but we usually seem to only talk once every couple of years...

Sigh. I think this is more about me feeling like T is not understanding stuff and not sure if he's going to be a good match. Whatever happens with my dad feels like.. that train has left the station, I don't expect it to change course at this point...

thanks...

[SnakeCharmer]

I have no advice about calling your Dad on his birthday, except to do whatever feels best for you.

But I can tell you what to do about bill collectors calling you about your dad's (or anyone else's) debts. I learned this from first-hand experience. Dozens of calls a week on a former neighbor who had repeatedly put me down as a contact person without my knowledge or permission.

1. Very politely ask the collector's name and who they are working for. You won't get their real name, but ask anyway. Write it down and date it.

2. Tell them, again very politely, that they are calling the wrong number, you are not the person responsible for the debt, the debtor does not live with you and you do not want them to call you again. They will try to engage you in conversation. Say, "Please do not call me again. Thank you. I'm hanging up now." They will keep talking. Gently hang up the phone.

3. Do this for each debt collector, if there is more than one coming after your dad. Document it all.

4. If someone from the same agency calls again, tell them again they have the wrong number, you are not the person they are seeking, the debtor does not live with you, that you already told them on X date to not call you again. Then say that if they call you again, you will report them to your state's attorney general's office. Do not engage in conversation, no matter what ploy they use. Gently hang up the phone.

5. If they call again, repeat the above and tell them you are reporting them to the state attorney general. Say good-bye and hang up.

6. It's unlikely they will call again, but if they do, go to your attorney general's website and you will probably find an on-line form where you can report the repeated calls. Make your complaint as concisely as possible.

Bill collectors get paid a low salary, but they can make good money by persistently going after debtors, getting a commission on each debt collected and bonuses for doing an especially good job. They will keep calling you and bugging you as long as you seem helpful to them in any way.

It's amazing how many people will pay off somebody else's debt in order to stop the calls. All the debt collector cares about is collecting the debt, it doesn't matter to them who pays it. If you shout at them or hang up, it only riles up their competitive spirit. They are used to being shouted at and cussed out and having whistled blown in their ear. They're also used to being lied to, so don't lie, don't evade, don't answer any questions. Stick to saying they have the wrong number, you are not the person responsible for the debt, and so on. Don't prolong the conversation. Do not be helpful. Do not be rude. That's what they want because that's how they get info and get people to agree to pay. That is their job.

You can make them stop (usually) by using the above procedure. All the calls to me stopped within two weeks. They don't want to waste time on a complete dead end. So your job is to make yourself a dead end for them. Good luck. If you can get these calls to stop you may find resentment levels dropping dramatically.

[IrisBloom]

I had a very bumpy relationship with my mother. I once cut off all communication with her for 8 years. I didn't want to be hating her when she passed on, so I made up with her and had, what was normal for us a relationship. I did not ignore what she had done to hurt me, but I didn't bring it up either. I chose to not let it eat me up and make me regret having hard feelings when she passed. She died 2 years ago and I am glad I got back together with her before she did.

IMO you should try to contact your dad. I'd call once and/or email once. That way you did your part and should have no regrets when the time comes. But don't beat yourself up if you don't want to contact him. Make the decision that is best for your peace of mind.

[zyberzoom]

You could try calling, but prepare yourself to be disappointed. Good luck, hon.

[music junkie]

Sounds a lot like my relationship with my mom. Off & on again over the years, usually when she needs something, because my family is full of irresponsible people. Right now she's living with me because she got diagnosed with breast cancer last year & I didn't think it was suitable for her to continue living with my brother while she was getting treatment. She's still living with me, still getting treatment for the cancer & other issues. But it's a very awkward existence for all of us. Most of the time she just isolates herself in her room & doesn't socialize with us at all. It's like she doesn't even live here sometimes. I've had to distance myself from her emotionally because it's just too hard to keep hoping for a good relationship & then being disappointed, just like you said. So I take care of her, but that's the extent of it. We might watch TV together or have dinner, but it's not like a normal relationship between parent & child. More like caregiver & care recipient (I made that term up).

[guilloche]

Thanks... yeah, I'm leaning towards calling, probably later today (his bday is actually tomorrow.) I'm very much preparing for us to either not connect (i.e. for him to not answer), or for it to be a very short call, and not expecting any kind of emotional connection at all. I'm thinking, this way I can at least tell T - "look, I did my part" and then maybe we can talk more about ALL the other stuff, b/c I'm not 100% sure he really understood it all. (To me, the "took my college money and then kicked me out of the house" is kind of a BIG thing... not sure T got that, though I think it should be obvious!)

Snakecharmer - Thanks! I'm going to print that out and keep it for reference! I've actually turned off my ringer at this point, so I'm quite a bit less stressed (amazing how that works), but that's such great advice for the future. With this particular group calling, I'm a bit nervous to talk to them at all - I googled them, and they have a reputation for being really awful to people on the phone (yelling, screaming, cussing, etc.). I've had other debt collectors (for my dad!) give up, since I don't ever answer the phone, so I'm thinking I can wait them out. I am very patient/stubborn. Thanks.

IrisBloom - Thanks for sharing your story. That makes sense to me, and it is one of my fears. Thanks...

Zyberzoom - Thanks for the support, and it makes sense. I am preparing myself...!

Music Junkie - Thanks, and I'm sorry you're having to deal with everything going on with your mother. I can't imagine having either of my parents coming to live with me... I seriously think that would push me right over the edge, so I really respect that you can manage to take care of her, despite the bad relationship.

Thanks everyone... like I said, I think I'll probably call him... just not particularly looking forward to it! Thanks!

[guilloche]

Well. That sucked.

So I just called the number that I have saved for him (from the phone's memory, so no mistyping.) Someone picked up, and it sounded like my dad... so I took a deep breath and say, "Hi Dad! This is guilloche! Happy Birthday!" - there was an awkward pause - and the voice said, "uh, wrong number."

Uh. Um. Er?

I said, "This isn't <FirstName> <LastName>"? Because it sounded like him... and the guy said, "No."

Me: "Oh, I'm sorry. Bye."

So, now I don't know if my dad is dead... or just decided to change his phone number and not let anyone know. My sister hasn't talked to him since Dec/Jan too, and my brother hasn't talked to him in ~6 years. What the heck?

I guess I did my part. My number hasn't changed. My email hasn't changed. He is 100% capable of getting in touch with me at any point.

Kinda hating T for encouraging this.

[music junkie]

So sorry it didn't go well! I hope you find out what's going on.

[guilloche]

Thanks Music Junkie. I just feel like an idiot now .

[music junkie]

You shouldn't though. You did what you could with the information you have. Nobody could have done anything more. At least you tried. You won't have that regret of, "If only I had tried calling..."

[guilloche]

Thanks... I know you're right, I still feel... ugh, just blah. And I don't see T again until the week after next, of course. More blah!!!

Let me ask... if your parent changes their phone number and doesn't bother to let you know, can you consider that a pretty clear sign that they don't want anything to do with you? At that point, can you write them off guilt-free?

I do have an old email address for him. But, omg, I don't want to have to be the one trying to chase him down and figure out where he's at. It seems that letting your family know about a phone number change is a pretty basic, easy thing. He chose not to do that.

[healingme4me]

He did choose to not notify, anyone. He's choosing to walk away from family, whatever his reasons are. Self absorption can do that.

Do you feel guilt free, at this point? If so, indicative of not feeling guilt, per se.

I find with stepping away, there's a regrettable feeling, of mourning what the ideal could have been, not necessarily guilty of my behaviour.

[guilloche]

Thanks Healingme4me... I don't know what I feel. I feel confused, whether I have a responsibility to try emailing him, or try sending snail mail, to try to reach out and see what's going on. Especially because he has suffered from depression for as long as I can remember. But I also feel *exhausted* from having to constantly track him down, having to be the one creating the relationship. I don't want to be selfish, but I have my only issues to deal with - I don't think I have the energy to deal with his stuff either.

I do agree with you - there is some regret. I am much more similar to my dad (in terms of personality) and got along better with him when I was growing up. So it hurts that we don't have any kind of relationship.

[music junkie]

Originally Posted by guilloche

Let me ask... if your parent changes their phone number and doesn't bother to let you know, can you consider that a pretty clear sign that they don't want anything to do with you?

Not necessarily. My mom's number has changed over the years, but she doesn't tell me because she never calls me. Or anyone. She hates talking on the phone & only has one because her kids want her to have one. She says I know where she lives & if I want to talk to her, I'll find her. She's super old-fashioned, which can be annoying.

Originally Posted by guilloche

I do have an old email address for him. But, omg, I don't want to have to be the one trying to chase him down and figure out where he's at. It seems that letting your family know about a phone number change is a pretty basic, easy thing. He chose not to do that.

I agree, it is pretty basic, & I don't like that feeling either of being the only one trying to keep a relationship intact. It makes me pretty bitter, actually.

Originally Posted by guilloche

But I also feel *exhausted* from having to constantly track him down, having to be the one creating the relationship. I don't want to be selfish, but I have my only issues to deal with - I don't think I have the energy to deal with his stuff either.

It is exhausting, & it is not selfish at all. I have exactly the same mentality. My family doesn't care at all about my issues; they just want me to be there to clean up their messes. I had to accept that I have my own life to live, & I can't always be chasing after them making sure they're okay. If they don't want to keep in contact, then that tells me I shouldn't waste my time hunting them down. Making an effort is one thing. My mom refuses to deal with or even acknowledge that she has issues, so I'm not going to let her thwart my efforts to address my own.

[IrisBloom]

I'd say you did your part. So don't have any regrets. I think it's true, tho painful to recognize that he is not interested in being a part of your life.

[SnakeCharmer]

Perhaps it would be wise to let this all settle for a few days. If you want to reach out again after this initial let-down, it's okay. If you don't, that's okay, too.

Seeing he has debt collectors hounding him, including an agency known for abusive tactics, it's not surprising to me that he would change his phone number and not let anyone know. He may even be using a disposable phone in order to remain more anonymous. That former neighbor I mentioned in a previous post, that's what she does. Changes her number frequently, running from creditors and people she lied to or fought with. To me, it's no way to live, but some people ... you know, there's no accounting for how people will behave when they're struggling with an emotional disturbance on practically a daily basis

The only question is what you want to do. What's best for you? What had you better do, for you, so you don't have to live with regret or guilt about what you did or didn't do? And, really, only you can answer that. There is no right or wrong answer on this one. Just what you can handle at this particular point in time. It may change later. Or not.

But right now, you did your best. You got your courage up and did a difficult thing. For that, you deserve kudos and congratulations. Well done, just for dialing the phone and speaking. The rest was all out of your control. But you .. you did just fine.

[ChipperMonkey]

Your therapist is one of those idiots out there in the world who thinks that there is no reason for a child to cut off a parent. I really want to smack people like this because it makes me ashamed to have almost totally cut off my abusive, narcissistic mother.

In the end it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. If he's crossed too many lines, then don't feel bad about not calling him. My mom's birthday is coming up soon, and I will call her to wish her a happy birthday, but no, I won't be seeing her and I won't be getting her a gift. Contact with her will likely dwindle even further in the near future.

[guilloche]

Thanks everyone. I'm still a little on the fence about trying to send an email. It's not that I want to cut my dad out of my life... I just want him to make some kind of an effort, so it's not 100% on me. Heck, even 15%, 20% - I could meet him there. But, it doesn't feel right to me that it's 100% my responsibility. This is helping me get my head clear for when I next see T, so thank you for that... I guess it's going to be on the list of stuff to discuss.

Music Junkie - Thanks... YES! to feeling bitter about having to be the one to keep the relationship intact, and YES! to feeling like my family doesn't care about my issues. You're right, that's a biggie for me too... the fact that I've gone through all kinds of crap and neither of my parents have really "been there" for me. Seriously, my dad is a *counselor* - but doesn't have any idea about the amount of therapy (and "attempted therapy) I've been through!

"If they don't want to keep in contact, then that tells me I shouldn't waste my time hunting them down." - thanks, this is how I feel as well. I'm not saying, "I'll never talk to him again" - just that it needs to be a 2-way relationship.

IrisBloom - THANKS! I appreciate the validation...

SnakeCharmer - ooh thank you, I really appreciate the perspective and validation.

ChipperMonkey - thanks, I hadn't really thought through that my therapist might have an across the board belief that people should always stay in touch with their parents. I think I'm going to have to bring this up with him to clarify. It's actually weird, there was alot that went well in that session (I was just re-reading some notes I made), but b/c of the dad stuff - I lost most of that. So definitely need to have a talk about all this with him. (And sorry about your mom... it's so tough to deal with crazy parents... ! )

Thanks...

[music junkie]

Originally Posted by ChipperMonkey

Your therapist is one of those idiots out there in the world who thinks that there is no reason for a child to cut off a parent. I really want to smack people like this because it makes me ashamed to have almost totally cut off my abusive, narcissistic mother.

In the end it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. If he's crossed too many lines, then don't feel bad about not calling him. My mom's birthday is coming up soon, and I will call her to wish her a happy birthday, but no, I won't be seeing her and I won't be getting her a gift. Contact with her will likely dwindle even further in the near future.

I really hate that, too! I'm always thinking to myself, Who are you to tell me I HAVE to have a relationship with my parents??? You don't know them or how they have treated me over time. I hate when people say, "Oh, you still love her because she's your mom!" People do that to me a lot with my sister, who I truly hate. "Oh, but she's your sister, you love her!" Uh, no, I don't, & it's not your place to tell me I love her, either!

You're right, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. I don't defend myself to anyone. I explain my position & if someone doesn't like it, that's their problem. I don't tell them how to interact with their family. My family stopped doing birthday calls/wishes a long time ago. When I was in the military, my family never called me except during xmas, when my mom would call me because she was drunk & suddenly remembered she had a daughter. We don't do holidays together as a family, & don't send each other xmas cards. My mom gave us a xmas card last year, but I think it's because she lives here, to be honest.

Wow, okay...I do sound really bitter today. I guess I needed to get that off my chest. Sorry for derailing the thread.

[guilloche]

Music Junkie... no worries... I'm glad you got that out! And, I agree... it sucks when people decide that you MUST feel a certain way. It's really invalidating and shows that they really don't get it.

[hvert]

OMG, don't you hate that? You spend a lot of time wondering whether or not you should do something, and then you finally make your decision and psych yourself up for it, only to find out that the choice had been made for you.

I'm sorry the number was changed. I can't believe your father is a counselor and acts this way with his own kid.