[TishaBuv]

When I started dating my husband, he would ask "When is the other shoe going to drop? You are so perfect, when is something bad going to happen and this all falls apart?" I'd just giggle 'aw shucks' and say "What makes you think something ever has to go wrong?"

Well, something did go wrong. It started when I was pregnant with our first child and got worse, ruining our marriage. We've been living a nightmare because of it. Two 'perfect' people found some dynamic that ruined our love.

Is that just the nature of relationships? Is it inevitable that two people will find some issue that will drive them apart, and it is just a question of how long?

He accused me of finding his Achilles heel and making his flaw the one thing I used to push him away. He accused me of having BPD and said that is the cause why I pushed him away-- because his neglect and fear of initiating sex with me and inability to turn me on-- I turned into such a trigger that I go off the deep end with emotion that turned into self-medicating overdosing and, for a while, even self-harm (hitting myself).

Is it always something?

I think that thinking you were "perfect" people is the flaw. No one is perfect.

That is idealization and no one can live up to that.

[Talthybius]

The idea of a healthy relationship is that you form a team together, and get through life together, having fun, having a deep bond, having romance, having a family, supporting each others career. Once you are infatuated with each other, both need to have the bravery to show the other their flaws, weaknesses or insecurities. This must be very scary, as I myself haven't ever experienced it.

At first, you need to show your best to acquire the highest value mate. Then, you need to change strategy at some point, and show your worst. If you never do, you cannot help and support each other and that was the whole point of having a relationship in the first place.

[divine1966]

In my experience whatever is wrong in a relationship didn't just happen. It was always there. People were just too in love to notice or were in denial then it hits them. I've read somewhere that most marriages fail because people aren't compatible. If people marry based on compatibility more than just based on being crazy in love we would have fewer divorces. My exhusband is a great person and great father and we were crazy about each other yet we barely made it 5 years.

Even our adult daughter laughs how we should be an example why people shouldn't marry only because they are in love. We were 100% not compatible with zero in common. We are only similar in how we parent but that's not enough to sustain anything

I don't know about sex though. I am not sure if you are missing affection or strictly sex. I am 50 and don't need that much sex as long as I have affection. I am not sure. I know everyone is different

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[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by Talthybius

The idea of a healthy relationship is that you form a team together, and get through life together, having fun, having a deep bond, having romance, having a family, supporting each others career. Once you are infatuated with each other, both need to have the bravery to show the other their flaws, weaknesses or insecurities. This must be very scary, as I myself haven't ever experienced it.

At first, you need to show your best to acquire the highest value mate. Then, you need to change strategy at some point, and show your worst. If you never do, you cannot help and support each other and that was the whole point of having a relationship in the first place.

That is so right! I never thought of it that way.

We've been very good about supporting each other's worsts, in general. I am willing to put up with a lot of stuff. He's been supportive about anything I've done, too. That's what keeps me so unsure about throwing in the towel.

I agree very much that nothing or no one is 'perfect', but nor do they have to be in order to have a happy relationship.

I think it's natural for relationships to have conflicts, disagreements and challenges, that's life. If we didn't encounter these challenges it would indicate we are avoiding them, which is no good because that can build resentment. It's a case of working at it, communicating effectively, nurturing your relationship. Both people have to want this.

My experience is that a period of conflict can lead to better communication, in fact it can be a positive thing - it has lead me to look at my own behaviour and patterns, not easy but worth it in the long run IMO.

Sorry you are struggling now Tish, and hope things will improve for you both.

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by divine1966

In my experience whatever is wrong in a relationship didn't just happen. It was always there. People were just too in love to notice or were in denial then it hits them. I've read somewhere that most marriages fail because people aren't compatible. If people marry based on compatibility more than just based on being crazy in love we would have fewer divorces. My exhusband is a great person and great father and we were crazy about each other yet we barely made it 5 years.

Even our adult daughter laughs how we should be an example why people shouldn't marry only because they are in love. We were 100% not compatible with zero in common. We are only similar in how we parent but that's not enough to sustain anything

I don't know about sex though. I am not sure if you are missing affection or strictly sex. I am 50 and don't need that much sex as long as I have affection. I am not sure. I know everyone is different

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It's not just sex. It's the way that closeness makes me feel loved and secure. It's him putting his arms around me and having passion for me. It makes me feel beautiful, loved, bonded with him, joy. It's like a celebration. Like I am what he enjoys about his day.

We would go to bed and he would give me a peck on the lips, say good night, roll over, and go to sleep. Finally days would go by, maybe a week, and I would be really upset that he wouldn't initiate sex, just keep giving me the peck.

Then when he would try to initiate, he would act so unnatural that I would just have a panic attack. The whole thing blew up and I developed uncontrollable tantrums.

So, what if I do have BPD and I did find some reason to push him away? Does that matter? Does that change the fact that we are incompatible?

I certainly did everything I could to try to repair this problem. I needed him to change and treat me how I needed to feel loved, and he didn't.

I am not going to have another scene like on Mother's Day again. So, we are done.

[divine1966]

So you two aren't hugging and holding hands or giving each other back rub etc? Not even once in awhile? That wouldn't fly. I wouldn't live with no affection.

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[TishaBuv]

We hug, hold hands sometimes, act affectionately outside of bed. That actually upsets me, too, because then when we are behind closed doors, he doesn't initiate.

[divine1966]

I don't initiate sex. I initiate intimacy like affection. The thing is I work too much and am tired and I don't really need or have energy for sex that often. Is he tired?

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[hubieg]

I had sorta the same thing. When we first met i felt in my wifes eyes I could do no wrong. There were troubling signs but what got me the most was how do I ever live up to this long term.

Now way down the road, I "behave like a 15 year old", Im "alot like her ex husband", and I "have a sense of entitlement". Sex is non-existant, I cheated on her, we cannot even talk about the most mundane of things without arguing.

Im not trying to be discouraging but, my feeling was always I know the day will come when she hates me as much as she loves me now. It did, and its HARD!!!

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by hubieg

I had sorta the same thing. When we first met i felt in my wifes eyes I could do no wrong. There were troubling signs but what got me the most was how do I ever live up to this long term.

Now way down the road, I "behave like a 15 year old", Im "alot like her ex husband", and I "have a sense of entitlement". Sex is non-existant, I cheated on her, we cannot even talk about the most mundane of things without arguing.

Im not trying to be discouraging but, my feeling was always I know the day will come when she hates me as much as she loves me now. It did, and its HARD!!!

Was her becoming critical of you what stopped the sex?

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by divine1966

I don't initiate sex. I initiate intimacy like affection. The thing is I work too much and am tired and I don't really need or have energy for sex that often. Is he tired?

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When we first got together I was his new toy. Actually, he did some sexual things that were kinda creepy, but I wouldn't do it and that was something right from the beginning. I felt like he really wanted to do something I wouldn't do. He could've found someone else who would. But he didn't, we got married.

Then he became totally stressed out because of his job, angry, hostile, and took it out on me by being a downer and wasn't interested in sex. Actually, he really wanted me to just do everything for him, including initiating.

Then I criticized him (the prior poster reminded me) in bed. The way he was touching me, tickled me, and didn't feel good. I think it was after I gave birth. Maybe my body changed. I had problems because I had an episiotomy, but my overall feelings changed in response to him. That's where our real struggle kicked in.

I read every self help book. I discussed it with him. We went to a dozen therapists.

Oh what a long, hard road it's been.

[hubieg]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

Was her becoming critical of you what stopped the sex?

Actually what stopped the sex was 2 things. The first was the criticism, the second was it being the same thing every time and if I didnt initiate it then it didnt happen (and she would constantly complain about it). When I talked to her about it she said she didnt know what to do. I asked her to read the net articles on things she could do. No interest in that. I also told her what she could do. I also did a quick search on "how to seduce your man" and sent her articles, still nothing. I gave up.

Even today I could walk in and say spread your legs and she would let me in. However I dont have any interest in doing it with a corpse. I want her to WANT me not take pity on me or do it out of "duty". Men want to be "seduced" also. sex is the "finale" not the beginning :-( I get more "foreplay" and worked up from masturbation than I do this sham of a marriage ;-(

Anyway, that is just one symptom of the overall problem.

[hubieg]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

When we first got together I was his new toy. Actually, he did some sexual things that were kinda creepy, but I wouldn't do it and that was something right from the beginning. I felt like he really wanted to do something I wouldn't do. He could've found someone else who would. But he didn't, we got married.

Then he became totally stressed out because of his job, angry, hostile, and took it out on me by being a downer and wasn't interested in sex. Actually, he really wanted me to just do everything for him, including initiating.

Then I criticized him (the prior poster reminded me) in bed. The way he was touching me, tickled me, and didn't feel good. I think it was after I gave birth. Maybe my body changed. I had problems because I had an episiotomy, but my overall feelings changed in response to him. That's where our real struggle kicked in.

I read every self help book. I discussed it with him. We went to a dozen therapists.

Oh what a long, hard road it's been.

I guess my question is what do you consider "creepy"?? As for my personal feeling as long as it is just between you and him, there is little or nothing I can think of that a couple could do that is "creepy".

What I have seen and read about many times is after the birth of a child, the woman kicks in to the role of "mommy" and good mommys dont do things like **** sex or give oral sex or anything like that. The fact of the matter though is that "mommys" are women too. There is nothing wrong with sexual relations between a husband and wife. There is nothing wrong with a mother even having "dark desires". All it says is that she is still a woman with the needs of a woman.

Maybe to you this is creepy also but I would have given anything to have been able to suckle at the breast of my wife after she gave birth. I cant think of a more intimate bonding experience than that. It never happened though because "mommys" dont do that.

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by hubieg

I guess my question is what do you consider "creepy"?? As for my personal feeling as long as it is just between you and him, there is little or nothing I can think of that a couple could do that is "creepy".

What I have seen and read about many times is after the birth of a child, the woman kicks in to the role of "mommy" and good mommys dont do things like **** sex or give oral sex or anything like that. The fact of the matter though is that "mommys" are women too. There is nothing wrong with sexual relations between a husband and wife. There is nothing wrong with a mother even having "dark desires". All it says is that she is still a woman with the needs of a woman.

Maybe to you this is creepy also but I would have given anything to have been able to suckle at the breast of my wife after she gave birth. I cant think of a more intimate bonding experience than that. It never happened though because "mommys" dont do that.

The first thing I thought was creepy was this (I'm putting it in a trigger box 'cause it's embarrassing to me)

Possible trigger:

He brought a beard trimmer with him for our first weekend we spent sleeping together to shave my pubes! This was in the early 1990's when people still had pubes, lol. It was weird and embarrassing and I was scared he was going to hurt me and I let him do it, but I felt like he did it because he didn't like that I had pubes, and that there was something wrong with me

Then after we got married he only kept after me to have a**l. I gave it the 'ol college try, but it is not for me. And I felt that he was so disappointed and I wondered if he was secretly gay for wanting that so badly. Plus it made me feel self conscious that again he didn't think I was right for him- like was I not tight enough?

I have no problems with seducing him. I know what he likes and I like to do it.

Does your wife have orgasms from sex- intercourse, foreplay? Could that be why she withdrew?

Originally Posted by divine1966

So you two aren't hugging and holding hands or giving each other back rub etc? Not even once in awhile? That wouldn't fly. I wouldn't live with no affection.

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I agree with this. I am not going to tell you how long it's been since I've been in a sexual relationship, since I don't really need it (I really like it, but I don't need it and don't want the possible drama of something that is too casual). The affection I need is more on the emotional level. When I am coupled with someone whose love language is physical touch well that either takes some negotiating or doesn't work out well, haha.

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by Ruari

I agree with this. I am not going to tell you how long it's been since I've been in a sexual relationship, since I don't really need it (I really like it, but I don't need it and don't want the possible drama of something that is too casual). The affection I need is more on the emotional level. When I am coupled with someone whose love language is physical touch well that either takes some negotiating or doesn't work out well, haha.

What do you mean 'love language is physical touch'? Is Love Languages a book? Do you mean that I need physical love because that's my love language?

[TishaBuv]

Life would be so much easier if I could just stop the emotional tantrums and panic attacks. Geez, we are in our 50's already. Others are saying they don't even care about sex anymore. I have tried many medications. I have tried different ways to be with him, taking the dynamic out of the picture of his initiating/ turning me on.

My soul aches to feel love and joy. The heart wants what the heart wants. But am I just fantasizing about something that doesn't exist? And now I am going to end my long marriage and be alone.

I'm scared.

[TishaBuv]

Do you guys think I have BPD?

[hubieg]

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

The first thing I thought was creepy was this (I'm putting it in a trigger box 'cause it's embarrassing to me)

Possible trigger:

He brought a beard trimmer with him for our first weekend we spent sleeping together to shave my pubes! This was in the early 1990's when people still had pubes, lol. It was weird and embarrassing and I was scared he was going to hurt me and I let him do it, but I felt like he did it because he didn't like that I had pubes, and that there was something wrong with me

Then after we got married he only kept after me to have a**l. I gave it the 'ol college try, but it is not for me. And I felt that he was so disappointed and I wondered if he was secretly gay for wanting that so badly. Plus it made me feel self conscious that again he didn't think I was right for him- like was I not tight enough?

I have no problems with seducing him. I know what he likes and I like to do it.

Does your wife have orgasms from sex- intercourse, foreplay? Could that be why she withdrew?

Well, I can only speak for me but I dont think either of those are worth getting too upset about. On the "trigger item" he probably should not have "surprised you with that" but instead talked first. Some guys like it clean, some might like it for "youthful fantasy" (maybe never really saw what it was like uncovered). Either way in my honest opinion I think maybe you are (were) being overly sensitive about it and he was being underly sensitive about it.

As for ****, it is not something you should take personally. At least you tried and it is certainly not something for everyone and a man has to be VERY gentle and understanding. As for it being a "gay thing", i can only speak for myself when I say it has nothing to do with "gayness". To be honest, I feel like with that I have had my woman fully and completely. If she was not a virgin it also has the feeling like she is giving me something that no other man has had. I find that "special".

Actually, I put her orgasm before mine. I have no problem and in fact encourage her to rub herself while Im inside if she cannot have an orgasm from intercourse. I even bought her some vibrators. One of my problems though was when she used them every time for orgams. that got to be insulting.

Anybody please feel free to tell me if this is getting too "graphic".

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

What do you mean 'love language is physical touch'? Is Love Languages a book? Do you mean that I need physical love because that's my love language?

It is a book! The Five Love Languages, by Gary Chapman. I don't know your spirituality; it's pretty heavily Christian and I am not, and still got a lot out of it. It makes a lot of sense. The way I receive love from another person (they way they show me they love me which I most understand) is quality time. The way I show love to another person is by acts of service, and maybe giving gifts. I tend to do things for people I care about, like bringing them coffee or helping out, and I absolutely love to do things for birthdays, Christmas, etc. That's always been my thing.

I don't know if your love language is physical touch. Tbh, I was just responding to Divine, and I haven't read through this whole thread. I would have to know more about you to even guess.

[eskielover]

From your posts, it sounds like the sexual side of your marriage started off shaky in that the sex he initiated was something you felt uncomfortable with. You knew what you expected, he knew what he knew how to initiate.

Then work made him stressed & your pregnancy & you kept what you expected & he just dropped it when you didn't connect with what he knew & was comfortable without learning to meet your needs & adapting himself to that.....AND NOTHING PROGRESSED.

Instead you got angry & he just withdrew.

Sounds like you both need to wipe the slate clean & start over getting to know each other. Start off with just the touch affection that starts with dating again & then communicate about each others needs & wants rather than going at it as two different people approach it as a TEAM to satisfy each others needs.

Sometimes T can help but I know personally that wasn't something I could talk to my T about though I could seriously talk about the lack of emotional connection (had nothing to do with sex) but learned its what blocked me from ever wanting sex with him the last 13 years of the marriage. Didn't have sex with him the last 12 years. He turned me off so bad I didn't want to even be in the same room. Luckily we had a huge house & I could have my own section without having to have any contact. He never communicated & my anger grew so bad it became rage around him. It didn't matter by that point anyway there was no way to save the marriage by that point because I hated him. After leaving I was able to learn why he was the way he was & that I had never loved him from the beginning & he wasn't capable of love either. Asked at the end why he got married & he said "that was what people do at that age with the person they are with". I got married because I thought that an educated partner in the same field I was getting my degree in would make a good companion to live live with. Getting talked out of listening to the red flags about his personality was a big mistake though. Those issues were what kept love from ever growing in the marriage. I wanted an equal & he wasn't capable of being that equal & I fought it all those years. Instead of getting divorced, I hid in my career & then got trapped financially those last hears. Feeling trapped in a marriage is horrible.

Originally Posted by TishaBuv

Do you guys think I have BPD?

Yes. I do.

[TishaBuv]

Originally Posted by eskielover

From your posts, it sounds like the sexual side of your marriage started off shaky in that the sex he initiated was something you felt uncomfortable with. You knew what you expected, he knew what he knew how to initiate.

Then work made him stressed & your pregnancy & you kept what you expected & he just dropped it when you didn't connect with what he knew & was comfortable without learning to meet your needs & adapting himself to that.....AND NOTHING PROGRESSED.

Instead you got angry & he just withdrew.

Sounds like you both need to wipe the slate clean & start over getting to know each other. Start off with just the touch affection that starts with dating again & then communicate about each others needs & wants rather than going at it as two different people approach it as a TEAM to satisfy each others needs.

Sometimes T can help but I know personally that wasn't something I could talk to my T about though I could seriously talk about the lack of emotional connection (had nothing to do with sex) but learned its what blocked me from ever wanting sex with him the last 13 years of the marriage. Didn't have sex with him the last 12 years. He turned me off so bad I didn't want to even be in the same room. Luckily we had a huge house & I could have my own section without having to have any contact. He never communicated & my anger grew so bad it became rage around him. It didn't matter by that point anyway there was no way to save the marriage by that point because I hated him. After leaving I was able to learn why he was the way he was & that I had never loved him from the beginning & he wasn't capable of love either. Asked at the end why he got married & he said "that was what people do at that age with the person they are with". I got married because I thought that an educated partner in the same field I was getting my degree in would make a good companion to live live with. Getting talked out of listening to the red flags about his personality was a big mistake though. Those issues were what kept love from ever growing in the marriage. I wanted an equal & he wasn't capable of being that equal & I fought it all those years. Instead of getting divorced, I hid in my career & then got trapped financially those last hears. Feeling trapped in a marriage is horrible.

Yep, that's what happened. I wasn't alone in this derailing. I analyzed and communicated my needs in every way possible. It is The Twilight Zone how he swears he gets it, promises to give me what I want (which is simply passionate love making. You'd think a man would be cool with that!). But then he doesn't do it and acts like it's a mystery to him.

I have wondered if I never loved him, but that's not true. If I am truly capable of love, I love him. I feel love and compassion for him. I want to see him happy. I want him to turn me on and at times he does. I think his laugh is sexy. Yes, I have this pre-conceived notion of how I think a man who loves me is supposed to act. There's an ease about it, a putting his arms around me, taking me, like we are one. Is that so crazy to want to feel?