Sick of being valued the least

I have talked to my last therapist about autism. She said if I had autism it would be mild and there wouldn't be much point in diagnosing it because she would just do social skills traininng.

The problem with your logic is that I didn't say anything insulting in my post. All I said in my post was:

1) I am attracted to things other than looks and agreeableness even though looks and agreeableness are big factors, 2) I have never had a girlfriend, 3) I don't have a specific physical type, 4) it is easier for girls to find a guy to is attracted to their looks than it is for guys to find a girl who is attracted to their personality.

I don't think any of that is insulting.

Again, you haven't come across me, so quit saying that. None of the people I have actually come across, including therapists, would agree with your assessment.

Yes, I think it is time for you to go.

It's funny, I get called shallow for saying I am attracted to nice looking girls, but if someone says they are attracted to someone who has a witty, charismatic personality, nobody calls that shallow. This proves my point. There is an underlying belief that charismatic people have more intrinsic value and that we ought to be attracted to them. And this is a big part of why I am stuck feeling inferior to my brother.

Shadix, I'm sorry but whomever taught you what you know abobuut girls really messed you up. First of all, it is not easier for girls in dating. It is just as hard for us to find someone who is attracted to us, FOR ANY REASON, as it is for a guy.

Why would being attracted to someone for their personality be shallow? We don't call that shallow because that's not what shallow is. Shallow is about being superficial, such as liking someone only for their looks. If you like someone be caused they are fun to be around and have a great sense of humor, that is by definition not shallow.

You know that you need to work on your social skills, as you have said a past therapist would treat you for this. Your lack of social skills is very present in the way you respond to these posts. If you want to have more luck with the ladies, I suggest you work with a therapist on your social skills and on defining your self worth as well as building your self esteem. No one wants to be with someone who needs to constantly have their vanity satiated, as you currently seem to need. You need to learn how to self validate, then these problems that you have, especially with your brother, will lessen.

The problem is not your brother, it's you.

Good luck,
Seesaw

I disagree. Charisma is something that appears on the surface. It has little to do with your inner self. Those people are usually just quicker at reacting and expressing their thoughts, they do not necessarily have more depth.

I agree that it is shallow to be attracted to only looks. But I think it is also shallow to be attracted to only charisma. For example I know a girl who had a crush on my brother when they had absolutely nothing in common.

With that said, most people are shallow to some extent. Especially young people.

Okay, so the whole world is wrong and you are right. Enjoy being miserable.

Social skills training could be very useful. My son has very high functioning autism/aspergers. He has some similar rigid thinking patterns on certain subjects which is why I asked. You have some strong beliefs where you look at things as either being black, or white. When in reality they are a shade of grey. You need help identifying when you see things in extremes and may need to see them in a more well rounded way. You can't help but be rigid in how you see things and that will be confusing for some people. It's okay not to get the help with social skills. There is always the route of radical acceptance of self. But if you want to change, there is help out there.

Listen what does it matter if you are right and we are wrong or the other way around? Main point is you are miserable in every aspect of your life, you can't get a girlfriend and have all kind of issues with people IRL but instead of seeking professional help you come on anonymous internet forum to argue with middle aged women that you are right and everyone else is wrong. But what does it accomplish? A thread after thread same thing. By all means let's agree that everyone posting here is wrong but you are right.

That's fine but how is it improving your situation?

How does this arguing with strangers (primarily it seems women older than you) online help you to make changes?

Divine, how dare you call me middle aged!

Shadix, it sounds like you need to make some new friends. The fact that they would even say that they're not that nice is a big red flag unless they happened to be joking about that of course.

If they make you feel that bad, then why do you hang out with them? Go to a meetup event. It's free to join. You are focusing way to much on caring about coming across as wanting to be seen or treated a certain way.

And you care way to much about what other people think of you. I'm working now and I often feel like you do, but I don't give a **** about what those people at work think of me. I tried being nice to them, and I do say hi to the nice people there who talk to me and say hi back to me, but to the ones that don't, I ignore them unless I need help with something or I need to ask them about something.

I'm fairly new at this job, but I'm quitting that job soon for a better one. People who treat you badly for no apparent reason aren't worth wasting your time or energy on. They suck, so why do you even give a damn about what they think? There is something wrong with them. Why would anyone want to hang around anyone who seems to think it's OK to be rude to them, or to only be "nice" to them out of pity?

You have some self esteem issues that you need to work on. The other day a whole group of my coworkers all just stood there as I was leaving my shift and I said bye to everyone, but they all just stood there and stared at me.

Eff those *****ess. I'll be out of there soon. Who cares what people like that think? They're NOT better than you. I like what seesaw said. It's better to have a thoughtful kind friend than one who's funny but a jerk.

You definitely need to focus on your good qualities and stop thinking that you're awful for not being funny or charismatic. Find people who will appreciate your thoughtfulness and kindness. You do sound smart, but stubborn and negative. You need to work on that. Stop worrying so much about what others think of you. They're probably not judging you or thinking all these bad things about you. I think you just assume that.

If they are though, and you have proof of that, then find some better friends.

I had a very charismatic bf. He ended up really hurting me, and I think he was a sociopath. He did some really bad stuff.

I had relationships with both charismatic and introverted men. I didn't really prize charisma above other attributes in them.

How old are you?

Why aren't you asking girls out?

What do you want to hear on here? What do you want to accomplish with your posts?

lol I don't even know why I used the term. I don't even think of myself as middle aged 😂😂😂

I am a middle aged woman so it was accurate in my case at least

Shad is you are not going to find any woman here who agrees with your observations, ALL Have said they disagree with what you've concluded and yet you refuse to hear it, which is fine.
I just wonder what you want to achieve.
Let's assume you are right. Then what is even the point in bringing it up. If you are right, then you are doomed for all time.
If you are wrong, you won't accept it, so you are doomed for all time.

I plead that you take what you have written here and show it to your T. Or you should just accept your life is over at 28 and continue in your self fulfilling prophecy.

The ridiculous thing is, that your obviously intelligent, articulate and have the capacity to think things through, yet you seem unable to accept any other perspective. I could argue with you all day long but it would be inane , and actually I usually enjoy a guy I can debate with, it keeps me on my toes, and makes me think. In this case though I rather sadly think it would be pointless because there needs to be movement, but in all the pages of this thread we are no futher forward.

I wish you all the best Shadix, I hope you take the time to get some help, and find some friends you feel put into you as much as you feel you would put into them. Take care.

Some people say woman don't know intellectually what they respond to emotionally. Those people may be right. So when females here come and claim they are sure they don't prefer an alpha male over a beta, or a charismatic extrovert over an awkward introvert, I don't believe them.

Actions are what matter. Woman may like to think they are attracted to different things than they actually are. And the same may be true for men. We rationalize what we feel and experience, possibly distorting it. So while we may all be trying to answer these questions honestly, we may be putting out wrong information.

Doesn't mean Shadix is right. But I don't buy into the "All woman here said [...] so therefore [...]"-line.

I never understand people saying things like "women like this or that", "men are this way or that way". None of it is true. Everyone is different. It's better to get out there and learn about how diverse people are rather than based ones opinion on preconceived notion, or internet and lack of experience. There are plenty of shallow simple people and plenty of deep thinking ones, of both genders. One can find all kinds. If you seek shallow girls you'll find them and if you want deep thinking ones you'll find them too. Some people like extrovert and some really do not. Etc

Get out there. Stop reading fake statistics on the internet.

It's very different when people speak of experience and when they speak of hypothetical situations or general statistics.

Don't assume what women are thinking. You are basing your knowledge on what you see superficially. Sure, many of these women like charming and witty people. Who doesn't? That doesn't mean everyone they like has to be that way to be valued. Unless you are a mind reader, then you have no idea what women really think about the men they spend time with. Everyone doesn't have to witty and charismatic in order to be valued and in fact those qualities are less important than many others. I think being warm, caring, positive, thoughtful, generous, kind, smart is far more important. Charm and wit are bonuses on top of the rest, and I'd bet that many people agree. I think the best way to work on yourself is to think of yourself in terms of advertising - if you had to convince someone to spend time with you, what would you say? Think about what you value in the people you want to spend time with. What do you have to offer them? Friendship is not unconditional - it's a give and take relationship. So they should offer something to you and you to them. If you identify what you value and start working on what you can offer in return, you'll probably have a lot more luck.

Good post.

This is complete BS. To say that women don't really know what they want, that's the same mentality that argues a woman means yes when she says no. When I said I'd prefer someone thoughtful over someone charismatic, I absolutely meant it, and I know because I've been there. Don't presume to tell me that I don't understand my own emotions.

In fact, there's more to be said that men aren't in touch with their feelings than women. However since I don't feel like doing any research right now, I'll just say that's my opinion.

Next time you want to may such a broad sweeping statement, please cite a study that says that, because I guarantee there's no such study that says women don't intellectually understand their emotions.

All you're doing is helping the OP wallow in his contempt and misery for himself by reaffirming his skewed views of social interactions.

No, the people who say that aren't right - they're sexist.

Women here are saying that shadix' blanket statements aren't true and have given our own personal examples. Quite simply, that means his assumptions about ALL women are wrong because here are a handful of women who do NOT fit his assumptions. Some women will fit his beliefs. But not ALL.

It makes me wonder if these blanket statements about "women" are used as an excuse by men who have hard time connecting to women/finding women/building something with women. It is probably much easier to say "women don't like this or that" rather than face the reality that there is something within themselves that is amiss and perhaps there is a need of professional help/hard work/improvement/exploration. But that would take work. Much easier to just make general assumptions about things they don't really know much and keep posting same thing a thread after thread with no change. What's the point

It's the other side of the coin. I don't know why you think this is a special insight or a different twist.

It is all subjective. If a male and female aren't attracted to each other, saying the male lacks a trait a female likes or the female doesn't like what the male is, is exactly the same thing.
Saying the male lacks a trait or saying the female is a attracted to the wrong thing, they are both equally valid.

Same the other way around.

I find it surprising that you would make this comment. I see many people here take things personally. When someone makes a general statement about either sex, be it male or female, even when that person makes clear it is a generalization, some person will come along and take issue.

All you are really saying is you aren't comfortable about people making generalizations about females. And there is nothing wrong with a generalization, as long as it is recognized as one.

Wut?!

I don't think the idea that people are not aware of what they are actually attracted to is unreasonable. There is no scientific evidence either for or against (I check the literature as I actually have access to the journals and the skills to quickly find it, if it is there). So it is a matter of opinion. I do not need to cite paper, as it is not a scientific claim (hopefully one day it will be and we can resolve this).
And if I had to, you have the same burden of evidence to provide a claim people are actually attracted to what they think they are attracted to.

Given the cognitive dissonance around mating and attraction, it is not unreasonable to postulate self-reported attraction deviates from actual attraction.

The only reason I made my claim initially about females is because you (females? and Shadix) were talking about females. But even at the end of my post, I generalized it to include all people. Males and females (and even people who don't self-identify as males or females would be included), Yet it is a sexist claim? That's absurd. Sexism isn't a one way street. You don't fight actual sexism towards woman with fake sexism against males who are willing to be vulnerable.

And I made the claim in a certain context. And that context was that it was an argument against the argument that Shadix is wrong a priori because all females that posted here disagree. The only point was to undermine that line of argument. Not to postulate this as some truth. Do we know for sure woman know exactly what they like? No. Do we know for sure woman have no idea what they like? No.
Please read my words as carefully as I type them. Thanks.

Generalizations and stereotyping are very simplistic in nature. It doesn't matter if it's about men or women or cultures or races etc. Geberalizations are just that.. I think for people, who already struggle with interpersonal skills, generalizations could be dangerous. Geberalizations only reenforce their misguided views of the world and makes connecting to others even harder. It's wise to refrain from generalizations when it comes to people.

Generalizations are not simplistic.They are actually more complex as you are talking about more people.

Generalizations may undermine misguided views are much as they may reinforce them. It is in fact impossible to correct a misguided view about something in general without a generalization.

It has nothing to do with how carefully someone reads your words, people will interpret what you say, especially when you make a particularly crass and misguided statement that women intellectually don't understand their emotions and then say that this assumption is right. Further going to state that the women here don't know what they want is particularly crass.

Generalizations are not helpful to anyone as people are individuals and will have their own preferences. Trying to make generalizations about what women want in a man is particularly useless as you will see all sorts of men are in a relationship or married and clearly the women who are with them all wanted different things.

And, yes, your statement was sexist, in my opinion.