Sick of being valued the least

Lauliza, that is my point. All sorts of people, from shy and introverted to adventurous extroverts get married and are in relationships, so to say people in general only want one thing is kind of outrageous. That's like saying employers only want one thing, when in truth, what an employer wants depends on the job. What a potential mate wants is dependent on what they value.

On a personal note, this alpha male stuff is super outdated. Especially since women make their own money, are independent, and take care of themselves, 'alpha' male is not necessarily something we're looking for. And I've dated some men who could be considered alpha male types and I am so not interested in that kind of man. Doesn't mean I don't look for someone with their own confidence, but I don't need someone to dominate, and that's usually what alpha male refers to.

I think the original poster feels frustrated about his social abilities and what they entail in his social life, and I totally understand that. Probably all other stuff he said was venting out of frustration.

If all people are married, this doesn't mean it's easy for every one. Extrovert and confident guys usually take the larger share, not just in romance, but in everything in life. It's just the nature of things.

The OP has mentioned a number of times that a therapist wanted to work.on social skills.with him. I think that is his best bet to find a GF and some happiness. You can't ask other people (the entire world really) to change to meet your needs.

For example, I had extreme agoraphobia for a while, and had to work with a therapist to conquer it. But I didn't expect the world to come to me. I knew that to live, I would have to learn to be comfortable going outside, so I could get groceries, work, walk my dog, etc. I had to change myself. The OP here needs to do the same. You can't control the world, only your reaction to it.

Although the OP can hypothetically find someone who would accept him as shy and socially awkward, dismissing qualities like being confident, funny, and extrovert as important qualities in the social life and especially in relationships, isn't exactly consistent with the reality, in general (finding exceptions doesn't mean it's not true). I sensed this (dismissing these qualities) was the message of many posts in this thread. I've been shy and socially awkward whole my life, and no matter how hard I try, the acceptance rate was zero, even with guys I thought we have common interests (e.g., meetups). People don't have the time and energy to change others, or for people who make their lives less comfortable and less fun and easy, and this is particularly true for girls. I get that. It's the way it is. Again, there is no absolute rule for this, but in general, it's true.

I disagree on the alpha male stuff. Say females like alpha's, which seems plausible. When females themselves become more independent and successful, they only want a man that's even more successful and independent.

Are you really saying that females that manage teams of 20 people, get paid 4x average income would rather accept a meek shy male with a bad career than a woman who would be completely dependent?

I don't know a lot about this, but when I have become in contact with this subject, there seems to be this group of single highly educated career woman, living in big cities, their biological clocks ticking away, unable to find a male that meets their extreme standards.

This thread caused quite a deep discussion:
There are infinite variables and each relationship and person is unique.
Factors:
1. Why is the couple together? Companionship, to have a family, financial security, etc...?
2. Why did the couple choose each other vs. others? "Chemistry", meets their needs, status, etc...

I could site all the different relationships I know of. There are just so many variables. For one example, I know a female doctor who married a man who stayed at home raising their children.

I understand what you're saying but it sounds like you are mislabeling the "alpha male" stuff for a bad stereotype, which it isn't. Generally speaking there are alpha females just as there are alpha males and I find it hard to believe that the idea that these people have a slight edge in the dating is "outdated". Maybe it's the label "alpha ..." that is outdated, but the personality type exists no matter what you want to call it. Like I said, you can see this very clearly on a dating site. Women and men who consider themselves to be physically fit, ambitious and socially competent will usually state outright in their profiles that they prefer the same in a partner. There's nothing wrong with that - people just tend to prefer others who have similar values and priorities. With that, I think it's important for the OP to figure out what his values and priorities are, what he has to offer someone else and to work on those things. He should also be realistic with himself relative to the type of women he is most likely to appeal to and focus on them instead of the "alpha females" (or whatever a better term is) that he seems to be drawn to.

So many replies. I've been busy the last couple days so I haven't been able to post.

Ok first off, here is something important I shoud point out. This is NOT about finding a girlfriend. I am actually am not interested in a serious relationship at this point in my life at all. I am 28 in case you are wondering. Another thing you might find interesting is that my brother I am talking about(who is 2 years younger than me) has also never had a girlfriend. However, he has had many girls interested in him before.

Originally what this post was about was me not feeling like I am valued by my group of friends from work, basically like they just let me tag along out of kindness but do not find me appealing in any way. Then the topic sort of switched to how I feel inferior to my brother because he is witty and charismatic and has tons of people who admire him meanwhile I am socially awkward and mentally slow and people seem to pity me. These two are sort of connected, because it terrifies me when I think about how if my brother happens to come work at the same place I work(which could actually happen in the future), he would outshine me in every possible way. Anyways, it is not just women, it is people in general whom I feel he appeals to more. But as a male who is attracted to women, their opinion of me carried much more weight than men's.

It is easy for you to say "you should stop comparing yourself to your brother" and "you shouldn't care what other people think" but these are not things I am finding myself able to do. Yes it's true that you should avoid comparing yourself to others, but I think there is a certain point where it becomes like an elephant in the room. The gap between my brother and I is so extreme that it is embarassing. When I imagine my brother meeting my friends from work, I immediately imagine them thinking, even in their own voices: "he is so much cooler than (my name)."

Yes it would be nice if I could just tell myself I am just as cool as he is despite what anybody else says, but we do not live in a society which facilitates that. We live in a society which teaches us to value ourselves based on how valuable we are to the collective. The problem is, I am finding myself unable to improve my social desirabilty. It seems I just don't "have it" and nothing I am doing is changing that. So the only option left for me is to admit to myself that my brother is just worth more than me. And I find that unbearable.

A couple more things...

1) I don't understand the accusation some of you are making that I am "blaming women instead of looking inwards." From the first post I have been speculating things about myself which I suspect could be the reason for my social difficulties, from slow processing speed to autism to social anxiety. How is this not "looking inwards"?

2) With regards to the suggestion that I should "be realistic with himself relative to the type of women he is most likely to appeal to", actually this is not the issue at all. You are probably thinking that I am "only looking for the hotties" while the women who would be interested in me are the not so attractive ones? Well actually, I have had really attractive women interested in me. But thisbis besides the point, since a woman's attraciveness doesn't determine which guys she is interest in. The "league" system is absolute bs.

Hi Shadix. A few ideas come to mind. Firstly, if somebody makes fun of you, just say nothing & move away if you can. Secondly, maybe work is not a good place to make girlfriends. Maybe you could just work on being a nice person. As for having people think you are "totally awesome", you have to earn that. Finally, how is your away from work life? I'm wondering if you could study, get hobbies & interests, & focus on having an enjoyable and interesting life & build yourself up to have something substantial to offer. The right girls will eventually find you. Oh, and don't try too hard to win the girls.

You wrote about this very intelligently and insightfully. Yet I have seen evidence of some kind of disorder in your very faulty thinking about certain concepts. So, as for what is going on with you medically, I hope a doctor can help you figure that out.

Both you and your brother have never had a gf at ages 26 and 28. To me, that's strange, and I wonder what's really deeply underlying there.

While I think you can't tell your brother not to outshine you around friends, I do agree that asking him not to get a job where you work for your sake is perfectly reasonable.

Ok, here is a book I think is for you. It will work if you work at it. It is "Intimate Connections" by David Burns. He is a psychiatrist with a great track record & has published a heap of good books and CDs. Nothing comes from wishing.

How about you stop being narcissistic & settle for just being liked? And just be yourself. Not everybody is awesome, admirable, charismatic or fun. How about you put your ego & fantasies out of the way & just be real. There is a place for simple, decent people with some humility and balance.

The normal think is to hang out where you are welcome. I didn't say admired. If somebody truly thinks you are worthless, only hang out with them if you gain enough from doing so, if that is possible.

If it is narcissistic to want your peers to find you likable and intelligent, then I am a card carrying narcissist. I can never accept being liked but looked down on as a socially awkward, incompetent loser. In fact, I am not sure if I would consider that "being liked". In my experience, most people dislike those that they do not consider admirable. Some people are just nice even to those they dislike. Then when you throw in having a brother who is witty and charismatic, it only becomes less acceptable for me to be unlikable and incompetent.

There are many people who are admired for being "simple"

Each person admires something different and that is the main point you seem to be missing.

If people constantly underestimate you, use it in your favor. If you constantly undervalue yourself,get some therapy (((hugs)))

Hmm, reading this reminded me of the movie "Sabrina".

It seems like you have this deep rivalry about your brother and that becomes something you carry on whenever you come across anyone like him. He was always younger than you and observing you as older and more able so he most likely developed his own way of getting attention that eventually came across as more charismatic. Also, he probably practiced on you in what he could do to get your attention or maybe even outsmart you. He remained more playful while you continued to stay nice, but serious. Some of that also has to do with how the oldest child tends to be the child the parents stress over and then the next child comes along and the parents are more relaxed simply because they are used to being a parent and are a bit less stressed.

The oldest child tends to be expected to set an example so often the oldest child doesn't get to have the freedom to experiment like the younger child can. You most likely have a parental type personality to you that developed over time unknowingly "nice, responsible" verses "that's his job so I can explore and be different". You are always going to be more mature than your younger brother.

You most likely have that presence about you that is "grounding" and more thoughtful, the nice guy that others like to have present yet misses out on having that narcissistic freedom to challenge, explore, and not have to be so serious and responsible, and when you want to explore and be careless it doesn't fit in with the charector you unknowingly developed that others see in you.

Two years apart means that your brother came along when you were not ready to have competition. He got to be the baby when you were still a mere baby needing just as much attention that he got. You never got over that challenge if you step back and really look at it objectively.

Actually, it doesn't surprise me that you have not had a relationship yet, that was never something you got a chance to have if you look back on how your younger brother needed more than you did and your mother had to tend to "him" more.

Then your mother had "two" boys and probably did not spend "quality" time with either one of you so that is missing for "both" of you which is why neither one of you have had relationships.

I think it's important to take a step back and consider the dynamics of what your early imprinting was, not just for you but also for your brother. Two years can really mean a lot in very early childhood and how a mother handled that challenge. It sounds like your "younger" brother always got to be "the baby" and that began for you when you were a "baby" yourself always waiting or being expected to behave while your mother saw to his needs simply because he was ALWAYS younger. SO, this sick of being valued the least most likely goes all the way back to when you were just a toddler/baby yourself and developed that feeling.

Shadix, I understand your thread got a little hijacked, but back to your original question... Even if you don't want to hear this, the only way for you to find happiness or contentment is to stop comparing yourself to others and be satisfied with what you as a person bring to the table. You are right, this is not easy. That's why a lot of us are in therapy. I had to go to a lot of therapy to learn to stop comparing myself to others and be proud of myself for my strengths. I think you need to see your therapist again with the directive that you want to work on this in particular. It's a matter of retraining your brain and thought processes, and it's not impossible at all. Some CBT or DBT could be helpful in retraining your thought processes to value yourself. Perhaps learning to re-parent yourself is in order too, as it sounds like there may be some underlying issues with your family there.

I think you need to make an appointment with your T.

Good luck,
seesaw

Comparing this to Sabrina is going from the ridiculous to the sublime! I'm sorr to be mean, but they're more like Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum. Neither one will even ask a girl out!

Shadix, you are just going to keep going around in circles on this. All this great insight people are giving you is just wasted on you because you are obsessed and stuck in a groove.

I'm sorry to be blunt.

One of the things that I learned about myself being the youngest child was that I also imprinted things I had not realized that actually became a "life" pattern to me as a person. My oldest sister was only 2 when my older brother came along and SHE AWAYS HATED HIM, and she still does to this very day. When my older brother was so little my sister hated him so much she tried to kill him. My entire childhood was stuck between my two siblings that hated each other and my older sister made it clear to me that if I played with my older brother she would not play with me and "ignore/ban/hate me".

My sister was jealous of me because I got to be "the baby", yet she also was old enough so she used me for "her" sense of control but I was much too little to understand that. And she liked having "me" to boss around and criticize because she needed to "feel" more than or better than. My family dynamics were such that I grew to HATE competitive and criticizing behaviors that I saw HURTING my family members. I became very sensitive and hated it when I saw people being "hurt" too. I have been told many times that I am gifted and should have gone into the field of psychology, but the truth is the way I am gifted is actually very "sad" and made me very vulnerable to developing PTSD which is what I suffer from now.

There are things about each of us that develop in us in our early childhoods that we don't even realize. It's not our fault either, we can all be sensitive in our own ways not realizing how that developed that really does go all the way back.

My entire childhood I felt like "something" was missing and I just did not know what it was, after all, how would I if it was missing. My older brother had learning disabilities, my older sister ALWAYS hated him and did not want ANYONE to be nice to him or play with him and she ALWAYS deemed him the bad child. I ALWAYS felt sorry for him because he was abused for something he could not help.

I was drawn to a certain forum on this site and I could not understand "why" and it was also a place I would get triggered a lot too. I was constantly feeling like I would get punished in some way and I could not seem to figure it out, but what tended to happen was I would begin having flashbacks too. What I disliked the most about that one forum was X vs Y and how mean and condescending some posters would get, that triggered how my older sister tended to get ESPECIALLY with my older brother.

I began to look for a way to help that atmosphere be more welcoming and it was not always easy and often "yes" I would get attacked too, especially if I had been triggered and was somehow back in time but not consciously realizing it. Truth is that anyone that acts like my older sister can trigger me in that she was bossy, always had to be right, was judgemental and condescending and the forum (environment) most definitely had to be under HER CONTROL. If I did not play along with HER game and desire to have the CONTROL and always be RIGHT in her opinions, I always had the threat of being BANNED. Unfortunately for her, I am not the only one that gets this feeling about her, she is like that with EVERYONE. Her behaviors that are hurtful and controlling and condescending is what she learned to do in order to GET HER WAY that developed in her childhood. She is unaware of how she affects people around her and she simply just follows a pattern that she developed a long time ago that proved to work for her in her desire to have the CONTROL.

I don't want to be on your list of responses that to you never seem to reach "your" challenge but instead tend to come across as criticisms. I don't see anything wrong with your desire to be appreciated and develop your true sense of understanding "self" instead of entertaining "self criticism". If you are not with a therapist that is trained to listen to you and explore your early childhood with you to help you recognize what may have developed in you that you are not aware of, you can face what you have been facing where you keep repeating what bothers you and you don't get the one thing you need to "hear/read" in a response that helps you finally understand your own void or deep challenge. There are a lot of labels to this site and a lot of members that are challenged by these different labels. So sometimes a person may not quite get what they are needing, it can get frustrating as you are probably experiencing.

When I developed PTSD that resulted from a big trauma my therapist had wanted me to talk about my childhood. I really did not think that was important, even thought I had made peace with the challenges I had faced. I was WRONG about that.

I finally realized that one thing I ALWAYS hated in my life that most definitely goes all the way back for me is this X vs Y mentality that I most definitely saw was very hurtful and somehow, I was constantly in the middle of that problem where all I wanted was "please be nice". Yes, the answer to the puzzle is in you but you have to see how it actually developed.

If the OP has autism traits or a different diagnosis which causes black and white thinking then they really cannot help themselves for how they view things. This is a point I feel many responders are missing....even myself. It's like people who like to argue with delusional people and think the delusional person can just be healed from the delusion via logic and reason....it doesn't work like that.

Which is why I have suggested over and over again that the OP work on this with his therapist. I honestly don't know why we are continuing to go round and round on this when nothing any of us has said has proved to be helpful. All our thoughts and opinions have been dismissed by the OP.

Why don't you let the OP decide what is helpful or not to him.

When I said his situation reminded me of the movie Sabrina, the brothers in that movie reminded me of what he was describing of him and his younger brother that's all.

I understand, it just struck me how Sabrina was so quintessentially opposite of this situation in the brothers' sophistication and womanizing.

Haven't you noticed Shadix doesn't address one thing anyone has said? He just keeps going back to focusing on his obsessive thinking about his faulty thinking. He can't see past it.

Well, that's also because responses are self-centered and logical.

You cannot say to someone obsessed about his brother "Stop being obsessed." It is not a conscious decision.

And someone told him he should accept being a mundane person, liked by some, not liked by others, admired by no one. I for one know I cannot do that. If I look at the lives of random and imagine me in their place, I feel strangled. If this is something that must be cured, I cannot imagine how it might be.