My friend likes to needle people.

I have a friend who kind of likes to needle people. Early in our friendship, years ago, she told me how she had become very disliked by some of the people she worked with because they didn't like her attitude. She flat out told me that they found her to be arrogant, and she said she came to believe they were probably right. For years she's told me how she is working on being humble. It's kind of humorous to me that she has told me about a hundred times, "I'm very humble now." I think to myself that humble people don't go around bragging about how humble they are.

In actuality, she talks like a know-it-all, is always disparaging others, and seems to have an insatiable appetite for attention. She loves to talk about the story of her life, but quickly becomes visibly bored and restless, if I get to talking much about myself. She can be smart and funny and interesting. At times, I really enjoy going places and doing things with her. On the other hand, I find she lacks empathy and is not a good person to turn to, if I need someone to listen to me.

Recently, she called me and said she wishes I would call her more often, even when I don't have time to meet up with her . . . because she said, "I just like to hear the sound of your voice." So last night I called her to ask if she had gotten over a cold that had been bothering her. After listening to her for awhile, I talked a bit about how my week at gone. Right away she started challenging me and taking issue with a recent decision I had made. She started needling me. Our conversation transformed into a debate . .. with me feeling on the defensive. When she didn't seem to be winning the debate, she said she said the discussion was making her "uncomfortable."

I'm tired of her taking anything I confide in her and turning it into grounds for us having a "war of wits." And I don't like this tendency she has to needle me. I am going to be avoiding her for awhile.

I'm not sure I want to end being associated with her, but I'm sick of her taking pot shots at me.

What can you do with people who like to needle others?

You can't change people. And she doesn't sound like someone who is open to feedback. I would just stop confiding in her.

Seesaw

You don't have to be around her. It sounds like you don't care for the way she acts or who she is very much, and I wouldn't want to deal with that either. I understand how friendships can be, in the sense that, they can be complex and sometimes want to be around them, and sometimes don't. I don't know f you feel the same way with this friendship though, or if you're like done. Maybe try distancing yourself.

Can't you just stop telling her things? The most private ones, anyway.. she doesn't sound like a very trusting person..

Sounds like my dad. He used to complain that I don't call him. Yet when I call, he talks crap. Funny thing is he doesn't really talk crap in person ( he used to but mellowed down over the years). Just on the phone he talks crap. I even talked to my therapist and she said we aren't obligated to call people if conversation is unpleasant. Well situation with dad is different as my parents are together and I talk to mom all the time plus not like I abandoned my dad, i see my parents, I just don't call my dad.

Why don't you just stop calling your friend. Life is too short.

Yeah, I guess I bring this on myself by even telling her things.

It's funny, divine, that you mention having a father who sounds like this. My father was very into needling people. It varied somewhat with his mood. He liked to get sarcastic and try to make others feel inadequate. By the time I was 15, I couldn't wait to get out of my parents' house. So I've learned from early in life to really dislike this trait.

My father was also someone who really craved talking to me. When I went away to college at age 17, he would call me up all despondent and say how much he missed me. He said, "All the spirit is gone out of the house, since you left." It was touching . . . kind of. Growing up, I would hear him tell my mother, "I think I'll see if I can start an argument with Rose." He would say that playfully, in a way that sounded good natured. Other times, the needling would start and there was nothing light-hearted about it at all.

Likewise, this friend of mine (and I have some trouble even calling her that) pursues contact with me when I have gotten fed up and have distanced myself. She'll want to take me out to lunch or out to dinner. She'll seem to be trying to be positive and supportive. After a while, I let my guard down. Then, when I've gotten relaxed and trusting . . . . that's when she goes for the juggler. It's like she's a snake who can't resist striking.

During our non-competitive conversations, she'll tell me how alone she is . . . and how her family doesn't bother with her . . . and how she's lost so many friends over the years. I get to feeling a genuine sense of pathos over her situation. And she can be an interesting and, even, understanding, person. So I let myself get roped in.

It does seem like this pattern is what she is going to persist at. I suppose I have to give up the fantasy that she could become a trusted confidant. She can seem to be exactly that for quite a while . . . until - whammo.

I guess, if I don't want the "whammo," I've got to vigilantly keep up my guard . . . which makes me start to think, "What's the point?"

I won't be calling her. But, eventually, she will call me again. That's her pattern. I think I have to stop taking the bait. It is a game of "Bait and switch." I feel like a fool for falling for it. It seems like she enjoys headgames.

I agree that people don't change. Probably, it's time to give up. It makes me sad. But I'ld rather be sad than keep getting upset.

I have a childhood friend like that.

Well we are still friends but we rarely talk because I distanced myself.

Her comments and lack of empathy as well as passive aggressive style are just too much. She however believes that I am the one that is hard to communicate with but I really don't think so.

One time she asked why I haven't been contacting her and I told her that my mother was just diagnosed with cancer and she's having a hard time and I am overwhelmed. Her response was "she'll be just fine, it's an easy cancer, everyone else has it". Well it's round two and my mom is very unwell. Wtf.

When my daughter lost her husband, it was a tough time for the whole family, but all she wanted to talk (next day after the accident) about was how her daughter is doing. Like I cared at the moment.

She also constantly demands I fly somewhere and meet her in various locations, rent a car and drive places etc And she takes my refusals personally. I explained to her many times that I cannot afford additional vacations as I work full time, I take one vacation. with my husband and then one to either see my daughter or take time off when she comes to us from out of state, and with my mom sick we don't leave town for too long. She gets all pissy.

She then made a comment that she is upset that her daughter might become a teacher (waste of money pay for education for pretty much lowly career". It is just beyond rude as my life long career is teaching! Nothing lowly about it. After that comment we didn't talk for like a year

Bottom line she is rude like your friend but then doesn't understand why I don't want to see her. It's like who needs enemies when you have friends like them

Hey Rose, I wouldn't say you "bring it on yourself." I think that as social creatures and as people who may be lonely, it's...I don't know. I just don't want to see you beat yourself up. Things like that have happened to me too. I had a "friend" from high school who was worse. We wouldn't talk for long periods of time. then she'd call me up. and say "I'm sorry I was mean to you." As if that makes it all better. she was playing weird games though and had issues. But I digress. I am trying to say that I've been in those situations too.

I haven't read any of your other threads. But I was wondering if you might fee lonely, so when she does pursue you, all kitten eyed and wanting to take you to dinner, you might have less willpower and more excitement and hope. I think it's honestly an easy cycle to get into.

That's really interesting about your dad. And I'm sorry he treated you like that. It sounds complex, confusing, and possibly toxic, especially if you weren't ok with it. I say its interesting because I wonder if you possibly touched on something with the cycle, or feeling gravitated towards people like that, or just, tolerating people when you don't have to.

Its a slippery slope. You have to defend yourself at the first poke, to let them know they cant take that path with you anymore. It takes being just a little more assertive than you are probably used to. I would rather be a nice sweet person - really! - but other people will just drag you away then. You dont have to be mean, just dont argue. Or cut the conversation short. Draw a little boundary.

Well, I am astonished at the depth of understanding I have gotten here. I mean PC is a good place to turn for support, but you guys hit it out of the park this time.

Divine, I feel for what you've gone through with your childhood friend. That's exactly what I'm talking about. But my friend has a smoother veneer. Still, amazing similarities. Last night my friend ended the phone conversation by saying it was making her feel "uncomfortable." That was only after she had done all she could to make me feel uncomfortable. But, yeah, in her mind, it was me who caused the awkwardness. Like my father, she is very intelligent and is very clever at head games.

Here's the context, and I'll try not to be tedious. My boyfriend is in failing health and needs a lot of help. He can't shower himself or make himself a piece of toast. I care for him. He does get a veteran's benefit that can be used for a variety of things, mainly hiring caregivers. I don't want any of the money paid to me. I have found him some other caregivers to help out, so I can go home to my own place once in a while. Mostly, though, I take care of him, which he likes . . . and I like to be with him. So the money accumulated, which the program doesn't like. The VA social worker advised us that the unspent money could be put into a pre-paid burial fund. So that's what I did this past week. I got info on that and the necessary paperwork. Everytime he has a health crisis, his family (adult kids) starts moaning and whining about the "final expenses." I told him, it would be a nice gift to his kids for him to make the necessary financial provisions. Plus, it would stop them hammering me about how they just don't know what to do when the time comes.

So I told my friend I had looked into that and gotten good info and would be helping my guy set that up. Well, she starts telling me "You're not the family and it's really not your place to be doing any of that." She was insisting on challenging me and I just tried to defend why I thought what I was doing was constructive and appropriate. (There's where I went wrong. Whenever you're on the defensive about something that you feel no need to defend, it's time to change the subject.) She was born to argue and loves to argue. After she criticized me on this subject every way she could (like - "why are you burying your boyfriend when he's not even gone yet?") and couldn't get me to acquiesce that I was doing something wrong, then she said that all this talk about death was making her uncomfortable. She's the one who kept on the subject by challenging me every way she could think of. She's very experienced in life and is more than capable of changing the subject when it suits her.

I'm sincerely trying to help my boyfriend in the most stand-up way I know how. She knows that. She was just arguing for the sake of arguing. Anyway . . . that was the context.

In the past, she has said things like, "I've had enough of dealing with sickness in my own family that I don't like to hear anything about what other people are dealing with, in terms of sickness of those they care about." That was one time when she called me after I had taken my boyfriend to the VA to be admitted. She said, "I am not comfortable hearing anyone talk about hospitals because I had my share of dealing with hospitals when my own family members went through their illnesses. It left me with hospitalitis, so I avoid that subject." After that, I wouldn't even mention my boyfriend, unless she asked.

She has figured out that I'm not going to stay in conversations that are just about her. So, now, she will ask about my guy once in a while because that's what my life is all about right now.

Anyway . . . I didn't mean to go on so much . . . . . . but that was the context.

What you relate, divine, is a little different, in the particulars, but I think it's basically the same dynamic, which I think has a lot to do with narcissism - a word I don't throw around lightly. I think your friend knows perfectly well that she is insulting you by saying teaching would be an unworthy career fir her daughter. These types think they can get away with insults because the insults are oblique. I think the new term, "micro-agression," applies here . . . though it doesn't feel so micro, when you're on the receiving end.

I am asking myself, "Who needs this?"

It's funny, starrysky, that you mention her being all kitten-eyed. It's like you've met her. She can come across as disarmingly sweet, like no one I've ever met. And, yes, I do get lonely and vulnerable. Being a caretaker to someone who is declining mentally, as well as physically, does get lonely. I think it does make me vulnerable.

And, yes, starry, my dad was complex, confusing and toxic. (It's like you met him. too.) Still, I loved him very much. I think I did get in the habit of tolerating a lot in a relationship.

But I can draw the line. Thank you, everyone.

I can really relate to this.
I know at least 2 people who are like this.
One of them loves arguing for the sake of pleasure, and he loves being right. I won't go into much details, but because he loves to argue/needle and apparently reasoning with him is impossible, instead of fighting fire with fire which I've tried a few times, I fought fire with a firewall - I deleted him off Facebook, it was the only way to show him how I feel. It still bothers me because he was a best friend to me, but I have to move on, at least until perhaps the fire will turn off one day.
As for the second person, who is also a long-time friend, has recently shown such signs of needling, too. Not in the severity of the first one, but enough to remind me of how much I hate it.
What I do is just mind those kind of people less, keep going on with my business with no need to sacrifice my well-being for their carvings.

I would cut her off completely, she doesn't really sound like much of a friend at all

Omg, i cant believe someone else came up with that "hospitalitis" excuse!

Would you tell your friend, who had a sick friend or parent, that you didnt want to listen to them because you had hospitalitis?

Would you tell someone close to you who was very, emergently ill, that you left them alone because you had hospitalitis? My mother did. I dont know what was wrong with her.

Thank you, luna. I do think I have a boundary problem. I could have cut the conversation short, when she started her stuff, and I was tempted. But I felt like she'ld actually get a kick out of that . . . knowing she upset me. So I participated in the game, and that's never a good option. There's got to be another option. Then, again, maybe there is no effective strategy for having a healthy conversation with a person like this.

I do know that I don't want this kind of encounter in my life.

Yeah, hospitalitis. So she's not even original in that. It always had a phoney ring to me.

Sorry you went through that with your mother. I think people find the most ingenious excuses for being self-centered and just not wanting to care about the difficulties of others.

Over the weekend, I've given a lot of thought to how this person upsets me and what I need to do about that. I've gotten good feedback here . . . maybe as much as can be said.

Several times over the past ten years, when I've been real turned off by her attitude, I've distanced myself. Sometimes, months have gone by, after which it seemed unlikely I'ld ever hear from her. Then she would call . . . all nice and friendly. It seemed to me like the bigger thing for me to do was to let bygones be bygones.

I even came up with this theory that, since I seem to have trouble protecting my boundaries, maybe it would be good to continue practicing with her. She gives me material to work with. However, it doesn't seem I'm making a lot of progress. I just keep getting hurt and disturbed.

In a way, maybe the continued contact has been edifying. I'm more sure now than I was that she is a toxic presence. In fact she sets out to be that. It seems like her whole mission in our phone conversation was to put me down.

I'm not going to be calling her, but she will eventually call me. I've been debating about how to respond when she does. I consider just not answering the phone. I consider being distant and cool. I consider telling her that our last conversation left me feeling sorry I had even called her. I'm going around in circles in my brain.

She's someone I'm likely to bump into at the supermarket from time to time. I don't want to create anything that will mean I have to feel tense or uncomfortable, if I find myself in line with her waiting to check out my groceries. So I think I've ruled out telling her off. I think there's a more nature way to go.

I think I'll just be polite when she calls, but keep it short and confide nothing about myself. If I don't ask her a bunch of follow-up questions regarding what she tells me about herself, the conversation will likely peter out real soon. Because that's what she depends on to keep the conversation going. She loves me expressing interest in her doings and is used to me saying, "So how's work going? . . . How are things at your apartment complex? . . . Hear anything from your relatives lately? . . . How've you been feeling healthwise? . . . How's your vehicle running? . . . Have you made any plans for your summer vacation? . . . Done any interesting shopping . . . bought any new clothes?" God . . . it's like I'm a talk show host and she's my guest. It's all about me making believe I'm dying to know the details of all that concerns her, about which I don't really give a rat's arse. And it's never really reciprocated. In fact, I help cover up that, were it not for me expressing rapt attentiveness and interest in her talking about herself, we'ld be hearing crickets.

Well . . . I think I'll let the crickets chirp away. I mean, if she says, "I got hit by a car when I was crossing the street yesterday.", then I'll say, "Wow . . . are you alright?" But when she says, "So yesterday, at work, I managed to finish part 3 of that 5 part report I always have to hand in this time of year.", then I'll refrain from saying, "Oh yeah, I remember you telling me about that last year. So you're more than half way through it. Well that's great. It always does get busy for you in January with preparing that report. Is it going smoothly? How's the feedback been from your supervisor? Has there been any extra headaches with the new people in your department? So tomorrow you'll be starting part 4 of your report. How long do you think it will take you to finish? Well I'm sure you'll do a good job on it. Seems I remember you were commended last year for your January report." Basically, she is tapping into me to get her "narcissistic supply." She may be self-absorbed, but I'm the co-dependent feeding her emotionally. I can simply stop doing that. Let the crickets chirp. She'll hang up soon enough. It's not like she's going to say, "So, Rose, tell me all about what's going on with you."

The problem is bigger than just her. I fall into this pattern too readily. It's my own behavior in conversations with others that I need to change. Then these non-nurturing relationships would shrivel up, and I'ld be none the poorer for it.

I may be just talking to myself here, but that may be what I need to do a bit more of. It's only a few months ago, that I got back on friendly terms with this person, after quite an extended period of estrangement. It seemed good that a relationship that seemed to have died hadn't. I even felt grateful to her for not giving up. We had over ten years' worth of shared experiences. This time would be different. Well, it hasn't been. I'm not really surprised. Can't say I'm heart-broken, or had high hopes that got dashed. But I do feel discombobulated and I want to learn from this what I need to take away, so I don't wastefully invest myself in what is going nowhere worthwhile. I don't want to stay stupid.

Being a lifelong semi-introvert, I haven't amassed a lot of experience in cultivating great relaationships. I guess I was trying to make the most of the few I stumbled into. It turned out that I was having my contributions to the process being consumed and not much reciprocated. Even with my sig. other, there's a lot of effort I expend on someone who doesn't have a whole lot to offer in return.

Relations with family have been similarly disappointing. I got what I thought was a nice gift. To make a long story short, the gift turned out to be stolen property. I wasn't expected to find out, but I did. Now the gifter is off my radar . . . possibly too embarrassed to contact me. And I feel bad about their embarassment.

I've been stopping by the local animal shelter, looking at adoptable dogs. I think, if I had to go to a desert island with just one companion, I'ld take a dog.

Meanwhile, I've spend the day doing next to nothing. I have the inertia that goes with depression, even though I don't feel sad . . . just tired and without the least motivation.

YOu talk about practicing boundaries with her. To practice the boundary, you need to set it and keep it there. If the boundary is limited contact, then you don't call her. Talking to her isn't practicing the boundary. Staying away from her is practicing the boundary.

Seesaw -

People with good healthy boundaries do not have to have zero contact with challenging people to maintain their emotional equilibrium. They exercize some prudent control over where they allow a conversation to go. I may not be skillful enough to do that with her. It may be that I have to simply not talk with her, if I'm going to avoid getting upset by her. I may have to accept that, and I'm leaning in that direction.

I hadn't previously set a boundary of not calling her. That hadn't been where the boundary of my choosing was. However, perhaps, it needs to be.

There are all kinds of strategies for maintaining boundaries. No contact is one strategy - the most primitive and the simplest . . . but not the only possible strategy.

I don't think cutting contacts with people, who aren't good company for us, is a primitive strategy.

I think we often cannot completely cut contact with people (family or people we live together), then you develop strategy of limiting contact or finding topics to take about etc but if it's not a family member and not someone you must see, then why maintain contact if it's not pleasurable? I think it's very logical conclusion to just not hang out with these people.

You described questions you ask this woman, it appears like they are "small talk". I personally intensely dislike small talk and if that's all I can talk to this particular person, then I am out. It doesn't appear meangful enough to maintain it.

Imho it either has to have depth of meaningful conversation or it has to be mutual interest that leads to spending time together (like you bike or paint or do crafts or watch and discuss movies together). Other than that I personally don't see any need in keep talking to this "friend"

Imho

"Primitive" doesn't have to mean something that only a caveman would do. I was using the term - not in a negative way, really - but to describe a strategy that is like a simple tool or a blunt instrument. It's a strategy that is very basic and doesn't require a whole lot of thinking and fine tuning. It's not complicated. That's what I meant. Sometimes it's the best approach. It may be for me in this case.

I love small talk. The small talk didn't bother me. But it's small talk that seems to be largely about her. I think she's self-absorbed. You make a good point, if I'm understanding you: "Why hang out with someone when it doesn't feel good?" That's a really good question.

It may be that I've been overthinking this situation. She has told me that her family doesn't bother with her and accuse her of wanting everything to be about her. Up till now, I've thought what cruel people they are. Well, they've known her longer than I have. They don't seem to want anything to do with her, which I think is pretty extreme. But maybe they have a point. Maybe I'm just figuring that out.

If I don't want to keep having unpleasant encounters with her, then maybe I need to cut the cord. That's the simplest solution and, maybe, the best.