While it seems (at least to me) that other people thrive on being sociable and talking to others, I don't have this urge inside me to talk to people and socialize. I avoid all social interactions at all costs, even over the phone. I don't know exactly why, but I know that I don't have this impulse to socialize. I've never had it, even as a kid. I acted like socializing sometimes, but have never been motivated by some urge or strong feelings to do so (for example, I know people like to talk with each others about themselves, but I don't). It was like a mask I put to appear acceptable. But when you don't have this intrinsic impulse to socialize, it's hard to keep acting, and people will eventually see your (avoiding or indifferent) behavior as no longer acceptable and rude. Even when I try, I guess it makes me appear not genuine. The irony is that I don't like being alone, too. The loneliness and boredom are eating me from the inside. This makes me depressed and thus more isolated. This is a real struggle for me. I wonder if there is someone here who has/had the same experience, and have been able to overcome this issue successfully and how? In other words, is it possible to "create" this urge or feeling (call it whatever) that pushes you to socialize, or it's something you either have or you don't?

[Lost_in_the_woods]

(((HUGS)))
Wish I had an great answer for you..but honestly I don't really know... I don't know all the specifics so I don't don't know exactly where or why this stems from.. from my own experiences I can speak maybe something will stand out to you.
I have social anxieties and fear rejection and there have been many long episodes of depression and isolation as well. Social anxiety and fear for me comes from a lifetime of feeling like I just don't fit anywhere. Never was really comfortable out and about around people. I guess it is kinda a snowball effect but I don't remember ever feeling more comfortable in social settings but know over the years I have pretty much stopped trying to push myself as well.
I do know I'm much happier with one on one interactions. Also that I only really like being around certain people. They have come and gone and I am not good with keeping up contact. All the people I have considered friends have been very different in regards to personalities, interests, and rather random in general. The only thing really in common was the level of ease I felt around them.... I know why I don't like group settings tho. I don't like how people act in groups. And the conversation is generally boring, basic or inside jokes amongst the group and since I never really sought out a group but had friends/acquaintances in many different groups. I would end up in group settings randomly and always felt like the outsider. And I would end up being bored an just zoning out and nodding or whatever a lot. Or I would be nervous and awkward and try to interject/ jump into conversation always saying the wrong thing or at the wrong time or being overlooked gone unheard. Sometimes get repeaty..just generally becoming more and more awkward and frustrated and embarassed. So I think going blank and zoning out became the norm. So the whole thing became an exhausting dreadful boring chore. And just stopped wanting to even push myself to go out at all. Staying in wearing pj's watching TV seemed like a much more enjoyable experience...for a bit until I would feel lonely and bored and then try to find someone who was available to hang out, wanted to, or hadn't lost contact with all together. Sometimes no one would answer their phone or they were going out with people who I had no interest hanging out with and/or didn't lie hanging out with me either. ..so just depressing and limiting... Honestly, I think the best times I've had with friends were not planned at all. More like when out at apps / errands or in transit to r from work or whatever and random run into someone and it just so happens we both had time to do whatever. That's all I can really think of...Idk...maybe some of us are just kinda lone wolves...wandering souls...that find the whole rigamaru of social/societal structure /expecations to be absurd. I guess what is normal to most seems ridiculously unnatural to me and others I'm sure as well.. Don't thrive in capitivity I guess. So, yes I can be feel lonely alot, and it is nicer when I did not live alone...but as far as outside in the world interacting I'd rather have a random great time with someone I happen to cross paths with than try to force myself to make/accept plans and have a miserable time pretending to be someone I'm just not. I hope something I said was helpful
Be Well! Be You! and Keep Writing! -LITW

[Bill3]

But when you don't have this intrinsic impulse to socialize, it's hard to keep acting, and people will eventually see your (avoiding or indifferent) behavior as no longer acceptable and rude. Even when I try, I guess it makes me appear not genuine....I wonder if there is someone here who has/had the same experience, and have been able to overcome this issue successfully and how? In other words, is it possible to "create" this urge or feeling (call it whatever) that pushes you to socialize, or it's something you either have or you don't?

My experience is as follows.

At first, if you want to socialize more, you have to just decide that you are going to do it, whatever your inner impulse is. You must socialize even when your inner impulse is to avoid. You must act opposite of that impulse. You must pick up the phone, you must say hello. Somehow or other, you must overcome the anxiety and take a step. It can and should be a small step, but still a step. Identify small, manageable steps, and force yourself to take those steps.

Just as if a person is afraid of elevators, they must somehow take steps to get themselves inside an elevator if they hope to overcome that fear.

You could create an anxiety ladder. To do that, make a list of about 8-10 forms of socializing that you would like to accomplish. Rank them from easiest for you to hardest for you. Start with the easiest one (which might not be "easy" but should not be excessively hard). Try to do that one every day, or at least as often as you can. As that one gets easier, you can move up the ladder to harder tasks.

Once I began to take the steps--small steps--I found that it gets easier. Mind you, I still must pretty much every day at some point resist the impulse to avoid/hide. This ran through my head today as a matter of fact: I don't want to ask whether this store sells chilis packed in oil. When I get that impulse to avoid, then I know that I just have to make myself ask, just as a form of therapy if nothing else. I just have to do it if I am committed to being more sociable.

If I fall short, I look at what happened, learn from it, don't judge myself for it, and plan to do better next time.

Socializing can be like many skills: one can get better at it by practice.

@Lost_in_the_woods: I do prefer one-on-one conversations, but I don't know how to get there. Even then, I cannot connect with the other person at the personal level. It gives me a more comfortable environment, but doesn't change me essentially. I do think I have social anxiety (that's why I prefer smaller groups over larger groups) and (I later developed) depression, but I think there is an autistic element into it (that's why the issue remains even with small groups). In all my life I have had only one friend. This friendship is a reality because of him. I don't make the effort to maintain it. I think it all comes down to this: I have no genuine interest in others (or even in me through others, will explain this later) because I don't feel the urge to connect with them. As I said I don't have this impulse to socialize.

Here where saying it gets ugly. The social order/expectation you mentioned is something related to my issue actually. I cannot accept how things work socially, and this includes forming relationships. I view forming relationships as selfish acts. I think people are not actually interested in others, but rather interested in themselves through others. Some people for example like to brag how many friends they have, or whom they know to boost their social status. Others form connections to help them reach some goals, like help them in their profession, to get promotion ... etc. Even if there seems to be no clear advantage, it makes them feel better, because they need to socialize. They have this need to be fulfilled. Even in romantic relationships. I knew guys lied to girls that they needed to copy their notebooks just to talk to them, which seemed perfectly fine to both sides. There is always something people want in others that they cannot have alone. It's just how things seem to work, but I have difficult times accepting that (to use people as means), but it seems to work just fine with most people!! That's part of the reason why I don't feel I belong or fit.

Is it just me who feels that way? Am I in the wrong side of the universe?

@Bill3: I HAVE to act sociable. It's something I have to do, it's not something I want or like to do. This was my point. When I'm in a social occasion, I can see all people talk to each others with ease and enjoyment. You can judge by the collective noise of all these talks. I'm not inclined to do that, even when I'm not anxious (I'm with only one person in the room). I feel others have some sort of urge to talk to others to thrive, even anxious people. I don't feel that way. Of course I suffer from the consequences later by being alone, but the talk itself isn't enjoyable to me. They say that we are social animals!! It's party because of anxiety, but I don't think it's all the problem. Do you feel enjoyment when talking to others, at least some of them when you force yourself to talk? or you feel it's something you have to do, and that's it? I can force myself to talk to others, but I feel it's all acting. Not something real or genuine. It's robotic void of emotions.

[Lost_in_the_woods]

No you are not alone in your thinking at all. I can very much relate to feeling disheartened by human nature. There is a quote that always comes to mind about this topic..."Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams , Last Chance To See.
As humans and society has evolved, "survival of the fittest" has definitely taken on some seriously dark twisted connotations. But the vantage point of history is skewed to highlight the negative as well. The present day and age is surreal in the fact that we have such rapid advances in technology. Which has allowed for a unique opportunity for humans to connect with anyone anywhere across the planet...but that kind of altruism is not profitable enough for society..so, thus the never ending human saga now has a 24/7h global stage. We all have been striving to resolve the same exact problematic equation for the entirety of our existence. Which is how to weigh and balance our internal conflict with and or against the external needs of ours and others. This is essentially the one constant endeavor of our speices. Solve the equation. The variable is the environment. The battle constant but the battlefield is also waging war on us as well. And in present day, we are being bombarded by contradictory POVs. Society will inevitably try to steer us toward the end to its own means..which generally wants to generate the most productivity out of its citizens with the least resistance to its longevity. Because society is its own entity. If you think of a society as a giant human made up of indivuals (cells), which form into groupings(organs and systems and functions) These groupings are decided by societies values and each individuals perceived "worth". So just like in every body the more healthy cells and grouping the better the body runs the more weak and or malignant cells the more unhealthy the body. Much like how what ever we put into our bodies can either help or hinder us. Society feeds us what it thinks will make us most likely to function as a whole....

Ok. That went way way off topic out to the stratosphere! So sorry . I never quite know what will come out when we start writing. Please bare with me. I'm gonna post this insanity because it obviously took effort..but I will come back and write my intended reply soon! I promise. Got a LOT of mixed nuts in our attic. Everybody's got an opinion about this one it seems.. sorry again. All i can say is Trauma is bizarre and wicked unpredictable! Be Back Soon! Hopefully to write a useful response not a frickin thesis!

I don't think your post was off topic. It was a good one. Some scientists think there are two selection levels happened in our evolution: individual-level selection and group-level selection. Individual-level selection makes an individual fit in their own. Obviously, this makes individuals selfish. Group-level selection makes individuals fit within a group. Here it's less obvious, because it might seem as if people are being altruistic, but they are actually not.

Humans began to be ultra-sociable when the conditions were very harsh and difficult for each individual to live on their own. This is when the higher level of the brain (the cortex) was evolved, because now people needed to know the intentions of others, and control their impulses by imagining the possible reactions of others to cooperate and hunt the big game. But eventually, all of this is for the benefit of each individual.

I get all of that. We cannot live alone, even now, where we have come a long way since we first appeared, and life is much easier and safer. But I think to live together, evolution instilled in us some emotions and feelings that push us to cooperate and interact with others. But the goal of evolution as you said is the good of the group. People mistake that with their emotional satisfaction from the interaction. Like the feelings of having sex. It's pleasurable, but this pleasure is just a way for us to keep doing it. We don't think of passing our genes when having sex. We have sex because it's pleasurable and generates in us all these good feelings. I think the same is true for social interactions. However, it seems this pleasure from social interactions isn't activated in some people for one reason or another, and the whole situation becomes purely intellectual. Things become more robotic. We do them just to survive, but without the emotional elements, it doesn't sound right, at least to me.

[MickeyCheeky]

I feel the same way. (well, sort of)

I don't want to feel alone, I do want to be around people who care about me and I want to care about them.

But I've already tried in many occasions, and I feel like I just don't care.. every time I go out, I just want to go back home as soon as possible.

I don't know why I feel like this. I hear you

[Bill3]

Thanks for your reply.

Yes i have come to feel enjoyment in socializing!

Not all the time but much more than I used to. I used to always dread it. Now i find (often, not always) that it is fun and interesting to speak to others. It took time and a lot of (forcing myself) practice.

Social enjoyment is a work in progress for me but there definitely has been progress. Sometimes i am so surprised....like i say to myself "Hey that was actually fun!!"

It helped me also to know WHY i dreaded socializing. When i was a child my narcissistic, alcoholic mother was the center of attention and would scream at me if i said domething she did not like. I came to learn that it was wrong and dangerous to express myself to others. This was the basis of my dread of socializing. Therapy helped me and could perhaps help you understand the source of your dread and/or help you overcome the dread.

[Lost_in_the_woods]

Howdy
I got some thoughts on the psych end.
But we'll have to pick back up in the am.
Cuz I'm too foggy tonight, hun.
didn't want you to think I walked on you.
You can also P.M. us anytime if you want.

Sorry so short.
Will elaborate tomorrow.
Gotta get some sleep.
Goodnite Mr.Stranger
Goodnite PC

¤M. (HVK)
-LITW

@Bill3: I think my both parents are narcissistic. They also didn't allow me to express my feelings, and do what I want to do. They always yelled at me, and punished me, emotionally and physically. They dictated my whole life. They are still trying to do so. I also think my father has autistic traits. He doesn't know how to regulate his emotions. He is very logical and has no room for emotions. He has little regard to how others feel, because I think he doesn't know how to relate emotionally. He is not sociable as well but not anxious around people. I feel I'm a lot like him, except I have anxiety because of the fear that was instilled in me as a child. I know this has something to do with my situation, but how knowing this will help me? Again this wasn't my point of the thread: I wanted to know if I'm alone in this feeling that I don't like (not just afraid) to connect with people, and if this is something can be changed or I have to deal with it as it is. As I said, I can talk to people and pretend to be sociable and learn some skills, but I have no internal motivation to do so. Talking to people doesn't bring me positive feelings as it does to others. Even with family. I feel indifferent. I do so just out of courtesy and because I have to do it to go on with my life. I sometimes spend weeks without saying a word. I speak only when I feel I have to.

When I wrote this thread at first, I wasn't sure how to put what I feel in words. With the responses I got and the responses I wrote, it's become more crystallized in my mind. I'm definitely not socially normal at many levels. It's not just I don't like and avoid connecting with people, but I actively hate and despise it because all is fake. Just consider how many times you are being asked "How are you?" but the the person who asked the question didn't really care if you are OK or not? All is just a big lie. A big play. I cannot form relationships because I'm anxious and depressed, but also because I know I'm forming them for some selfish goals. For the same reason, I don't want people to be around me because they want to use me as a means for their selfish goals (obviously, I'm of no use now, and no one cares at the moment, but when I was at grad school, students where trying to get close to me to help them, but when they didn't need me, I didn't find them. A perfect example of this big lie). Obviously, this is how the world works. I just cannot accept that. I feel I'm forced to follow the rules. I wish I could live like a hermit in a desert. This is the only genuine way for me to live. All other ways are just twisted and somehow even evil. What puzzles me the most is that no one seems to care about this because it's mutual: I use you, and you use me, and at the end we are fine. This is how we are designed to be, but I don't want to be part of that, and I'm being punished because of this decision!!

[Bill3]

What you said about not liking to socialise reminds me of something.

Aristotle spoke of virtues as habits that one acquires by practice.

At first, a virtue is disagreeable to do.

If one practices, one gets better and it becomes a habit.

As one's skill increases and the habit becomes ingrained, the virtue actually becomes fun to do and one wants to do it. One comes to enjoy doing it.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Mr. Stranger

. . . when I was at grad school, students where trying to get close to me to help them, but when they didn't need me, I didn't find them. A perfect example of this big lie). Obviously, this is how the world works. I just cannot accept that. I feel I'm forced to follow the rules. I wish I could live like a hermit in a desert. This is the only genuine way for me to live. All other ways are just twisted and somehow even evil. What puzzles me the most is that no one seems to care about this because it's mutual: I use you, and you use me, and at the end we are fine. This is how we are designed to be, but I don't want to be part of that, and I'm being punished because of this decision!!

My temperament doesn't function "normally" either but it's normal for me. I don't like the way most of the world works either and I'm now pretty isolated. But better that than what feels fake to me.

[Lost_in_the_woods]

Good evening Mr. Stranger!
Ok. I have trying to write this response all damn night...it is clearly just not happening.
I can't get out what I want to say because certain aspects of this post are extremely triggering to a very recent raw wound I have and not able to stay grounded. Keep getting hijacked! and I'm assuming that there is something much deeper being disturbed because no matter how many times I try I keep drifting off and getting postblocked!

But I don't want to leave you with nothing at all so I will leave you this link.Clusters
There are some disturbing aspects to this site. A lot of stuff on how to get people to do what you want and persuade people. IGNORE ALL THAT CRAP! like you I find that kinda stuff heinous and disgusting! But this pg. And site in general is one of the best online references for all things relating to the many many psychological and sociological theories of self, schemas, development, neurosis, perceptions and cognitive distortions, behavioural responses and modification tools and also on the sociological end speaks toward interpersonal relationship skills, theories on group dynamics, friendships, social interactions and pitfalls...life the universe everything...without all our mucking about in hyperspace!
Like I said great only as a reference! ...I use it like an encyclopedia.

I will try to msg you to discuss all of this further, as long as you're OK with that?.. because I really really think that you will find some truth and value in what I keep unsuccessfully trying to write! So maybe I'll have better luck in msg..because I think that some of my issue is that I'm trying to filter/talk around some stuff because of the public setting.
Hope you find some helpful insights on that link..and hopefully we can continue this discussion soon let me know! ~S♡☆

Good evening. Yes, feel free to message me at any time. Thanks for the link

Hi Mr. Stranger. *You sound very intelligent and level headed and insightful about yourself. I applaud you. *It sounds like you are or were concerned about not being the social norm, for not having an interest or desire to be social? *I have to say, I think you are fine, and also, just the fact that you are concerned, to me, is showing high intelligence and other positive traits that not everyone has. *It sounds like you wish you were interested in others, because you have to be social in your life somehow. *I hear two things in your post. *At first, "what's wrong with me?" and next, empowerment about who you are. *Go with the latter empowerment, which I think you are! *I'm now interested in the selfishness theory / point of view you've got going. *I see validity in it, but i havent thought much about it and it does sound rather like one side of a two sided coin, or, one side in a complex issue. *I want to check out that website Lost in the woods gave. *If you are wondering about a diagnosis, let me know. I personally think the DSM is flawed. *But can be helpful. *

I have no idea why my post has asterisks everywhere. I copied and pasted it tho. Just know the asterisks mean nothing, lol.

Thanks for your post. Maybe it's a complex issue, but to me it's very simple. I see things differently. To others (most of them), social interactions are something come naturally without much effort and thinking, and they thrive on socializing. They feel alive that way. For me, it's not the case. Before speaking anything, I think why I'm speaking and what exactly I want. Having random and small talks for example isn't something I do because I don't see the point of it. All just to make people feel good with fake pretentious care. I have to talk to someone and make her/him feel good about herself/himself to return that feelings to me or to help me doing something or to get something. I don't need this feedback process, or rather I don't find it natural to me. Of course, this makes me rude and not sociable according to the norms, and the result is that I'm being isolated. I know these two (not being sociable and isolated) go side by side, but I just feel it's not part of me to be sociable. I have to be someone else to not be isolated, and I don't think I'd like that either.

[Bill3]

Maybe i can make an analogy and you csn tell me if it sounds fitting.

In basketball i naturally shoot layips with my right hand. Left handed shooting is unnatural to me. I wanted to learn it though. It took a lot of practice but eventually i got to be able to do it pretty well.

Right it sounds like perhaps you really do not want to learn to "to use your nondominant hand", to socialise, as you find it fake. I guess my only point then is that if/when you wanted to, if/when you are ready, i nelieve that you could socialise better, and in yome cpme to feel better about it, through practice.

Saying that when you want to be sociable to someone struggles to be sociable for many reasons and at many levels isn't exactly helpful. Why do you think I wrote my feelings and thoughts? From post one I asked if anyone has had the same experience and view of relationships, and if they succeeded to change that. From your first response, you missed the point and immediately jumped to superficial social skills, while the core issue is my view. So, the problem isn't I don't want to learn to use my left hand, but I have an issue with the game itself and its hidden rules. It's silly for others, I know. My view doesn't help me or motivates me to learn social skills. I don't tell, say, depressed people if you want to get better, then I believe you will find a way to get better. Obviously, there is something deeper that makes people paralyzed mentally, and not living their lives.

[Bill3]

I'm really sorry that you are not finding my posts to be helpful to you.

Thank you very much for letting me know.

You are welcome!

[s4ndm4n2006]

Do you WANT to be social or is there an obligation you feel that you're "supposed" to be socially active? Because the truth is, you're best being what you are content with, comfortable with. Sure there are times when social activity is inevitable but I don't think that's wht you're talking about. If you're happier being alone, live your life as you see fit, and don't try to conform to what the world says about being social. You're not a lesser person being drawn more to solitude than socializing.