So I snooped and maybe she's lying about what I found

That event with the phone certainly would be unsettling. Assuming you say it in a nonjudgmental way, how would she deal with this very reasonable statement of your feelings?

How would abusive guy treat her if she did something he didn't like? He could be another reason that she learned to lie.

With regard to the boob shot and people changing, I'm not yet persuaded that boob/dic shots are things that she normally engages in. They might well be, but so far I've just heard about those isolated cases. My view would be that something that happens a small number of times has not yet risen to a habit or something that one is "into", even if she kept those two shots that we have been discussing.

How well and frequently do you stay in contact with her when you are apart?

So far, when apart, we text each other every day, to say good morning, to say good night, to check in several times during the day, bringing each other up to date on current events and to reaffirm our feelings for each other.

Again, I'm not so sure that even though she reaffirms with the best of them, that she can't justify in her own mind doing things that might trouble me if I knew about them. She has a nifty way with those internal twists and turns. And there is the recent phone biz. OTOH, I could simply be getting more and more paranoid as time goes on, with the phone thing adding fuel to fire.

btw, bill, thanks for sticking with me through this. it's certainly helped me keep my head screwed on straight at least a little bit!

And you will be left to wonder whether she just hides things automatically, by reflex, or whether she had something from the past that she is embarrassed to share, or whether she has something going on now that she wants to keep from you.

And that basically summarized the whole situation, right? She can be very loving, but she can also plant seeds of doubt. And so I see two questions for you to consider: first, of course, is which do you believe more--the loving you get from her or the doubts? And second, since you can't be sure where she is with you, how much risk are you willing to take?

I could see her being "terrified" of going back to that neighborhood. Possibly she does actually fear what he might do if were drunk and he saw you two together. But aside from that, it is legit in my view to fear his power over her. He sounds like he might be a type of addiction for her, and many who break their drug habits have a visceral fear of getting anywhere near that previous lifestyle.

Thank you very much for your kind words!

xxxxxxxxx

How much would you have believed her if she said that you have nothing to be insecure about?

Let me first bring you up to date. I presented the phone-grabbing words exactly as written above, in a purely neutral way. And once again, she said, I'm sorry you feel that way. I said, that makes me feel like you think you didn't grab the phone at all and are are innocent of everything I'm saying. She said, I know I grabbed the phone.

I didn't say this because I didn't think of it, but I should have said, If that's the case, you should have said, I'm sorry I made you feel that way. Which would mean she would share the responsibility instead of heaping it all on me. But she did't say that.

At a certain point, I asked her to imagine if the situation was reversed, how would she feel if all I said was, I'm sorry you feel that way. She did not like this question and began saying, it feel like you are interrogating me. I said, What are the words you'd most like to hear if the situation were reversed? This stymied her. She looked perplexed. I said, what you would want is for me to wrap you up in my arms and tell you that everything is okay, baby, there's nothing going to harm you or disturb you on that phone.

Then up came the dic pic thing and it all went downhill from there, with her repeating her line about thinking it was a game and she was naive and me saying, that's an impossible stance to take if you read what you actually wrote on the train. At some point, I said, I can't be with someone who I love but can't trust. She said, so you're breaking up with me? I said yes. And then she started sobbing, saying, she didn't know what was going on right now, how could things turn so bad so quickly, i'm confused.

I had to drive her to the airport an hour away. Most of the hour was spent with her sobbing and me driving silent and stone faced. One minute from the terminal, I pulled over so she could get herself together. I said once again, I love you but I can't be with you if you're lying. She said, but I'm not, I love you, too, but you won't believe anything I say. I said, only if it rings false. Back and forth we went, and everything got calmer and more considered and it ended with her saying, Would you like to have me change my flight and stay another day? And so, five minutes later, she'd changed her flight, hopped back in my car, and off we drove, more in love than ever. I told her we still needed to talk about trust and stuff. She said, Oh, tonight? I said, not tonight, tomorrow.

Well, tomorrow came and she had several things to do, including shopping for gifty sweatshirts, that ate up all the time we had before we once again had to head to the airport. It's like what she'd said the evening before never existed. Halfway to the airport, I finally said, we have 45 minutes; I'd like to talk about last evening and the trust issue. She said, but we already did. I said, when? She said, yesterday, right before I went and changed my ticket to stay another night. I groaned inwardly and more or less gave in. It was either that or try to get her to see what she was doing with very little time to get the trust convo out of the way.

She calls herself a Very Sensitive Person, highly empathetic and an actual empath. Well, maybe, but she's not an empath with me. She has no ability or willingness to step into my shoes and feel what I'm feeling and see what i'm seeing, etc. The more I think about her, the more I think she has to have very little self-awareness despite claims to the contrary.

So, we left it at that, with the two of us professing undying eternal love, each for the other, at the drop off location.

Everything happened so fast that my head is still spinning. I have tried to break up with her about ten times since we met. She has not once even remotely thought about letting me go. I said to her once, why, why won't you let me go? She said, Because I love you. And that's as deep as it went, whereas I gots to think that some other dynamic -- perhaps even a personality disorder -- is at play here too.

Would I believe her if she said there was nothing on her phone for me to worry about? Well, after my little bit of coaching, she did say that. And I believed her for a full day, mainly because I wanted to. In the evening, I had to admit to myself that I didn't believe her and I really don't.

So, what am I doing right now? I'm packing up the phone grabbing incident and the pic episode and putting them in a box that I am going to tape up with Duct Tape after I encase the box with sheets of lead. IOW, I am going to try to step around all the obvious fabrications and start anew. I'm crazy to do it, but that's what I'm doing, so we can stay together.

Gawd.

One thing I need to do is ask her if at any time in her life a psychiatrist diagnosed her and, if so, what that diagnose was. She asked me that question once and I answered with the truth. No. Except for my current dr.
Anyway, there's something weird and ethereal and off-slant about this girl that I can't exactly put my finger on. But, yeah, I do love the loving part of her, which is glorious and all she really wants me ever to see. I only see other sides when I snoop or when she does something like grab her phone.

Good golly, man. I do believe if I stick with her, it's going to be the wildest and woolliest ride of my life, up the roller coaster to the top, only to plummet down into the depths.

I guess I know I'm doing the wrong thing but so far I've lacked the courage and tenacity to do the right thing.

Thoughts?
.

Sorry. This just sounds like you both need to end this relationship. The phone is just your proof of her lies. There may be much more than the phone lies to be worried about. Why waste your time and energy on a liar?

I guess because I'd like to draw a line in the sand and give her one more chance starting at that line. In many ways, she is unique. and if she lies to me again, it'll come to the fore sooner or later. i hope.

It seems clear that right now she is not able to be completely candid with you at all times. I grant that this looks like a character flaw, but everybody on earth has character flaws. To me, the question is not whether she has a flaw, but how significant is this flaw in your relationship: does it outweigh outweigh the many good things you see in her and in the relationship?

Good scenario: She doesn't lie very often and you address her lying by, each time it happens, gently, nonjudgmentally calling her on it at the time (without by bringing up old stuff like the dic pic, never saying saying "You always lie", "You are an f-ing liar", etc. Just stick to the incident at hand) and having a mutually respectful discussion. With this approach you may gradually help her learn not to lie.

Bad scenario: She lies a lot, and it turns out the lies re about major, current things like she is seeing another guy, she keeps reaching out for abusive ex, etc. Plus, she refuses to discuss anything. In this scenario you come to realize that she doesn't really love you, regardless of what she says. You end the relationship.

The question is: how much are you willing to take a chance on experiencing a bad scenario in order to try to cultivate the good scenario?

I don't see this is a matter of right or wrong.To me, it just isn't clear right now. This is why it is a hard decision.

It sounds like you really want the relationship to work, that you really love the many good things you see. If you don't give the relationship every possible to chance to work, how will you feel when you look back and realize that you ended the relationship before giving it every possible chance?

And, on the other hand, if later on the bad scenario materializes and you are really hurt, how will you feel looking back and knowing that by giving it every possible chance you opened yourself to more hurt?

My suggestion is to weigh these two possible outcomes and see which path resonates more deeply with you, better fits who you are.

I think you are somewhat enjoying the 'wild and wooly ride'. You are seeing this as an epic love story.

You may be giving her too much credit for intelligence and integrity. You may be calling this a relationship and thinking it's committed and she is not on the same page at all. She may just be too emotionally immature for a real relationship. She may just be an inveterate liar.

You said she had breast implants and was a size DDD. Most women who get implants stay within a natural size. She went overboard. What do you make of this?

[QUOTE=Bill3;5786027]It seems clear that right now she is not able to be completely candid with you at all times. I grant that this looks like a character flaw, but everybody on earth has character flaws. To me, the question is not whether she has a flaw, but how significant is this flaw in your relationship: does it outweigh outweigh the many good things you see in her and in the relationship?

I envy your ability, bill, to cut through the fog to the heart of the matter in such a considered way. yes, the significance thing is what i really need to grapple with.

Good scenario: She doesn't lie very often and you address her lying by, each time it happens, gently, nonjudgmentally calling her on it at the time (without by bringing up old stuff like the dic pic, never saying saying "You always lie", "You are an f-ing liar", etc. Just stick to the incident at hand) and having a mutually respectful discussion. With this approach you may gradually help her learn not to lie.

well, the problem here is that to have that kind of discussion she has to fess up and take responsibility for her lies. She won't and hasn't done that. All she's done is continue to say she's never lied to me and that she's innocent of everything, that i'm the one who is in the wrong, not her.


Bad scenario: She lies a lot, and it turns out the lies re about major, current things like she is seeing another guy, she keeps reaching out for abusive ex, etc. Plus, she refuses to discuss anything. In this scenario you come to realize that she doesn't really love you, regardless of what she says. You end the relationship.

absolutely correct and it's what i hopefully will do if i think she's lied again. right now, there's no way for me to know exactly what she's up to, if anything. until december, we're living 3000 miles apart. so, if i continue to see her, i'm going to have to put my suspicions on the back burner until i'm once again a part of her daily orbit.

The question is: how much are you willing to take a chance on experiencing a bad scenario in order to try to cultivate the good scenario?

this is indeed the major question i need to answer. right now, i'm inclined to stick around, for better or worse, and explain away in my own head both what I consider to be lies and, if lies they be, her refusal to admit to them and take responsibility for them.

I don't see this is a matter of right or wrong.To me, it just isn't clear right now. This is why it is a hard decision.

yup. really hard.

It sounds like you really want the relationship to work, that you really love the many good things you see. If you don't give the relationship every possible to chance to work, how will you feel when you look back and realize that you ended the relationship before giving it every possible chance?

And, on the other hand, if later on the bad scenario materializes and you are really hurt, how will you feel looking back and knowing that by giving it every possible chance you opened yourself to more hurt?

My suggestion is to weigh these two possible outcomes and see which path resonates more deeply with you, better fits who you are.

such wise words, and I thank you for them. in the future, i will try to be more dispassionate when thinking about this and try not to get so emotional about it. at the moment, i can't answer either of those questions, but as i move forward, i hope to keep both of them in the forefront of my brain and perhaps the answer will come to me sooner rather than later.

bill, you've been a godsend to me throughout this little ordeal. never has an internet stranger done more for me than you. again, i can't thank you enough.

*****

she got her first implant back in 94. she was pretty flat at the time and said she needed it just to feel good about herself. since then, they've gone up in size and down in size. her triple D days were when she weighed 30 more pounds than she does now, so her breasts then might have been more congruent with her size.

in the past two years, however, due to some major illnesses, she's dropped both in weight (she's around 100lbs now) and height (use to be 5'3, is now 5'1). i think she's a double d now, not triple, and her breasts really do look too big for her. but she likes the way they look on her and she's going to keep them that size. she's also one of the most flamboyant dressers most people have ever seen and she needs that breast size to fill out what she wears. Am I making excuses for her here? Yeah, most likely

Are you dating Dolly Parton? Lol, jk

It sounds like it was difficult for her, but she did eventually acknowledge that she grabbed the phone. And it sounds like there was a productive discussion, that make her think. It sounds like she did not out-and-out reject what you had to say.

absolutely correct and it's what i hopefully will do if i think she's lied again. right now, there's no way for me to know exactly what she's up to, if anything. until december, we're living 3000 miles apart. so, if i continue to see her, i'm going to have to put my suspicions on the back burner until i'm once again a part of her daily orbit.

That definitely is a long ways and a long time.

What you said about being dispassionate is really important in my view. When you feel the anger or other negative feelings rising, my advice is to set the matter aside until the passions and more calm. Take a cold shower if you need to! Setting the passions aside may well be a challenging task, but very important in my view. Do all you can to avoid thinking, speaking, or acting with regard to her when you are in the throes of some negative passion(s).

I could be wrong, but i don't see you realizing what to do on a single day where you have a sudden epiphany. I think it will be a gradual shift in your thinking over time, a gradual growth of clarity. In time, you will, I believe, find your way.

Thank you so much for your very kind words!

You're quite welcome. You deserve every one of them.

btw / i thought ya'll might be interested in reading a few of her love texts to me. she's a good if not great writer and has a way of drenching me in endorphins such that i lose all sense, common or otherwise. to orient you a little, i've been having some trouble with my balance. she lives on the west coast, i on the east. we nearly broke up again last tuesday.

Yesterday evening:

I hope you regain some balance tomorrow. Is there anything I can do outside of jumping into my rocket ship and speeding to you on the jet stream of love? I know what you mean by feeling pixelated...it’s not a good feeling at all. it’s kind of depersonalized, at least my experience of it. But you did have a lot to deal with recently, including our almost destruction on the way to the airport on Tuesday...so ****ing glad that I changed my flight and that all was so good after that. I am going to double down on my efforts to be as clear as possible and communicate what I am feeling as close to the moment as possible. I am totally committed to you, sweetheart, and that’s the difference I feel about all of this. I feel you aligned with me in such a wonderfully interwoven way, one that isn’t worrisome, but that in fact is so exciting I can hardly wait to write to you again, talk to you again, dream of you again, touch you again in my dreams, and then touch you again when we finally return to each other.

Later:

Wonderful dreams to you, my love. I would do just about anything for you. Please to note qualification of “just” includes impossible things like robbing a bank, becoming a hermaphrodite, signing up to be a devotee of the Rev Moon or his ilk, or jumping off a cliff, or becoming a cannibal or worse. Won’t do those things, but if you ask me to, I will make sure I take care of you forever. Which I will do anyway because I love you. I LOVE YOU, [[insert my name].

Later:

And now I go to sleep. I just changed the sheets after a very long time, which is not like me at all. But I smell like Chanel and I am as happy as can be to get in between these nicely stretched sheets and get ready to meet you in dreamtime. I adore you, my love, and crave you, want you, desire you, and will wait for you. We’ll talk soon. Good night.

First thing in the morning:

And good morning, my sweet. I miss you, and love you!

An hour later, after I haven't responded:

Are you alive, honey? Should I be worried? What if something had happened to you...how would I know?

*******

how can i not want to trust and carry on with a woman who says such wonderful things?

I can certainly understand why you might think it is worthwhile to allow some time to see if things can work out!

She asked how she would know if anything bad happens to you. Do you have someone who would be willing to tell her if something did happen to you such that you could not tell her yourself? And vice versa?

Are her texts what's known as 'love bombing'?

uh oh. i've never heard of that before. i'll google it and see. probably, off the top of my head.

billf: no, we don't have anything like that set up. i suppose we should, since we are both not in very good health. thanks for the idea.

?Love bombing? is the newest dangerous dating trend | New York Post

I saw that. Could be.

No matter what I end up doing, I hate being 3000 miles away from the situation. Today, she's going to some big concert with a bunch of people I don't know, including a guy named ... Craig ... who she has mentioned in the past, just in passing. Not a big deal, I guess. But you never know.

Actually, Tisha, she could be love bombing me, with multiple purposes, one of which is to make it very difficult for mr to do anything but play along in return and return passion with passion, so that I'd feel like a total buzz kill if I brought up anything even semi serious. She doesn't want to have anything to do with semi-serious, much less serious. Her days are crazy enough as it is. One time, I started to bring something up and she broke in, "Oh, can't we just have some fun." And that was that.

Like one thing I'd like to email her about is her inability to follow through with promises she's made. I wrote her a long email in late July, which she called "singularly the most painful and beautifully written piece I've ever read. I want to craft an appropriate response. Can I have a few days?" Of course, but as of 8/23 I've seen nada. I reminded her about it early on and she said she'd get it to me in a day or two.

More recently, I asked her to revise some list of things she needs from me and she said she'd hop right on it. She was super enthusiastic about it. She asked for a day or three. But of course. That was two weeks ago. Crickets. I reminded her once or twice but that's all I'm going to do. Finally, ten days ago, I asked her to send me a link to the latest video of her and her band in concert. "I'll do it right now!" she exclaimed. Yup, you got it, crickets, along w/ few cicadas. And never along the way did she say she needed a bit more time or she was working on it or anything. Never a mention again.

This might seem like penny-ante stuff and maybe it is, but these aren't the only examples and over time they begin to add up as I begin to feel more and more discouraged.

I sometimes think she's only interested in "working" on our so-called relationship when I've broken up with her and she's in tears and we commit anew to doing the work. But after that, all she does is love bomb me. And I guess that's what it really is.

otoh, she's done none of the stuff that love bombers usually do at some point, turn cold, push away, etc.

Another thought I have: maybe I'm addicted to the friction of the ambiguity that i get from her ... whatever that means.

In her defense, responding to being called out on her inability to keep promises is a buzz kill and people hate to be called out and defend themselves.

Have you seen her band? Are you sure it's real?

Have you spent real time together with her, like weeks and months of living together? That's when you may see different sides of her personality, when she drops the love bombing and starts devaluing.

I understand what you mean about being addicted to the friction. You get a jolt when she gives and are on pins and needles when she is unclear. Either way, it is very exciting.

zzzzzzzzzzz