Abusive relationships dialectic

Hello, dear friends. Something of an argument came up recently in another thread, and I'd like to open up an in-depth discussion on the subject. I'd like for this to be an open dialogue where we can share and discuss ideas, hopefully with the end goal of understanding the subject at a deeper level and learning or developing strategies to handle these situations in real life.

So, abusive relationships. Feel free to add any comment you like, but a few questions I had in mind:

--> Can abuse be prevented? How, and by whom?

--> What power, if any, does the victim have in the relationship?

--> What do you think are some myths about abusive relationships that are damaging?

--> Why do you believe someone would become abusive? Can we lead them to change? If so, how?

--> How does one recover from an abusive relationship?

--> On a broader, societal level, what do you think of the perception of the abuser/victim dichotomy? How do you think abusers are perceived? How do you think victims are perceived? Is it accurate? Does that matter?

These are just some questions I had, so again, feel free to add whatever you like, or pose more questions. I'm not going to give my input yet, because I don't want to feel like I'm leading the conversation or influencing anyone else's opinions. That wouldn't be dialectic.

Thanks for starting this thread. I would like to add a topic, which is how to forgive a parent who abused you.

--> Can abuse be prevented? How, and by whom?

Knowledge is power. For instance, I never thought that being told I should feel a certain way is not quite right. As a child, I was told that not only should we act a certain way but true goodness means you think a certain way (I don't believe this anymore--I think our actions and intentions matter not our thoughts and feelings as in feelings are not wrong they just are.) This upbringing made me easy to guilt. So if my husband told me I don't love him (and we were in the middle of a fight--of course I wasn't feeling loving then) I would feel guilty and his accussations about not "feeling" a certain way about him would shut me up. Thanks to things I have read here--these accussations wouldn't phase me anymore.

Self knowledge is power. Sometimes we project things onto others unfairly because of unawareness. The better we understand ourselves (and the more honest we are about who we are), the less likely we are to treat someone unfairly because of things we project.

--> What power, if any, does the victim have in the relationship?
Say something, leave or get help. Obviously, in some situations (an extreme example would be slavery) the victim doesn't have any good options.

--> What do you think are some myths about abusive relationships that are damaging?
The damage varies immensely depending on how well the victim copes/ recognizes what is happening/ their support system -- a con man can con some of us but would have to be pretty skillful to con everyone. Also, there can be situations where both parties are abusing each other--it isn't always a one-sided thing. Also, some people put up with abuse in exchange for other things like $$$. When they become fully aware then is it the abusers fault that they made a deal with the devil? Partially their fault? Do they slowly become as bad as the abuser as long as they put up with the "bargain"? I don't know--something I do think about sometimes.....

Oops the above didn't answer the question. The myth is that it is obvious whether or not you have been abused and that all abusers are bad people.

--> Why do you believe someone would become abusive? Can we lead them to change? If so, how?
Insecurity, anger, they know of nothing else--could love change them? I wonder?

--> How does one recover from an abusive relationship? Time, restful environment, knowledge, and love.

--> On a broader, societal level, what do you think of the perception of the abuser/victim dichotomy? How do you think abusers are perceived? How do you think victims are perceived? Is it accurate? Does that matter?

Our society portrays these things in a way too black and white matter. Relationships are complicated, nuanced and hard to describe. Some novels come close but nothing real captures the true essence of some deep relationships....

It is common to blame the victim in cases of abuse. I have seen it, and it makes me mad. The fault should lie with the abuser. That said, most abusers were themselves victims at one time. Like TunedOut said, it's complicated.

@theoretical, I thought more on your question on whether abuse can be prevented. I think we have to be very cautious around this, because a victim of abuse already and frequently experiences deep shame and self-blame.... what did I do to cause this? They often think and believe it's their own fault that it's something about THEM that brought on the abuse and mistreatment. That being said, I have realized in the past couple days that we can be more SUSCEPTIBLE to abuse, given certain characteristics we hold & carry... and very frequently, abuse victims have been previously abused in childhood, therefore, they can become an easy target for abusers.

I realized also about my own abusive past relationship that I most certainly was very vulnerable in my life at the time when I met my abuser. I was prime for abuse at that time... my self esteem was very low, I was very needy, I was at a low point in my life, and I had JUST come out of a bad relationship, wanting love and affection.

Now, to address your question: can it be prevented? I take back what I had said previously. It can be AVOIDED by paying attention to all the potential warning signs of an abuser. However, this takes educating oneself about the traits and behaviors of an abusive personality, which usually happens AFTER one has already been abused, and possibly TOO MANY TIMES. So, yes, I believe abuse can be avoided, IF we are aware of and are astute about all the red flags that point to potential abuse down the road. And typically abusers rush into relationships and typically it's experienced as a whirlwind romance at first. That's the most dangerous time because often we put on love blinders and dismiss any warning signs because the romance feels SO good at first.

But again, I think we have to be very careful around this issue... because the victim should never be blamed for the abuse they suffered. It takes education... and like I said, that usually happens after the fact.

Cautious on behalf of whom, exactly? This is neither a didactic presentation nor a debate. We're not seeking to persuade anyone, but merely to understand the issue, and that includes understanding others' opinions on it.

I think we're all capable of discussing this rationally. If anyone is nervous about sharing their opinion due to how it might be received, I've already trigger stamped the whole thread, but you can also use trigger tags to hide it.

On behalf of a victim of abuse. No need to become argumentative. Who said I wasn’t being rational? How am I not being rational? You haven’t even stated an opinion. You asked questions and I answered one of them. I think I made my points clear.. abuse can be avoided. It’s my opinion and you can ignore it if you choose. Clearly you missed my points entirely. And now I choose to bow out of this thread.

If one is a minor, has limited physical and/or mental capacity, elderly, is kidnapped and held hostage against their will, then no abuse cannot be prevented. If one is fully capable adult then yes steps could be taken to prevent abuse.

If abuse victim is not in any of the special circumstances outlined above then a victim has full power to leave

Some damaging myths are about victims not having power to leave

People could be abusers for many reasons like addictions and personality disorders and some people are just plain nasty. They can change but they cannot be lead. They have to do it on their own

Abusers are often perceived as having all the power and victims are powerless and helpless. Well it’s incorrect. Sometimes victimhood is a chosen role. At times some people chose to remain victims because that gives them attention. Sometimes it absolved them of responsibility. Some stay because abuser pays bills, makes all decisions and runs the show. Victim just has to put up with bad treatment but they never have to take charge. Some people don’t want to have decision making power, it could be easier to give power to abusers and just mope around. Less work.

Some people also overuse the word abuse. Anything could be labeled abuse if one wants to do that. And way too often abusers are the ones that scream “abuse”.

How does one recover? If you were truly helpless such as scenarios I mentioned before then therapy is helpful and other professional work. In other cases therapy is helpful as well but also reflecting on one’s mistakes. Find like minded people. Take your time. Take care of your health. Live a good life.

I think that all your questions are broad in that there is all kinds of abuse, so with that it takes looking at different kinds of abuse and then how to prevent that kind of abuse.

Typically, an abuser targets individuals that are niave, very young, children are victims a lot and so are the elderly as well as young niave teenagers. Most predators, even animal predators can identify potential victims. Education is important along with being observing and reporting anything that a person thinks is off. Predators look for soft targets any sign of defenslessness and they typically get involved in areas where they know they can find their targets.

We cannot stop someone from abusing us, but we have total power on what to do about it. Do NOT respond to abuse.....walk away, hang up the phone....The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans saved my life (after 31 years of abusive marriage); I feel it should be required reading for everyone on the planet. We do NOT cause anyone to abuse us. Abuse is a choice....always a choice.

--> Can abuse be prevented? How, and by whom?
Depends, by the victims. If they can recognize the red flags.

--> What power, if any, does the victim have in the relationship?
The power to leave the relationship.

--> What do you think are some myths about abusive relationships that are damaging?
It’s not abuse if it’s not physical. It’s your fault that you are abused.

--> Why do you believe someone would become abusive? Can we lead them to change? If so, how?
Childhood upbringing or they are just naturally toxic to everyone including to themselves. We can’t change them. Period. Thinking that we can change them is the reason why we don’t leave them.

--> How does one recover from an abusive relationship?
Years of therapy and support from other people.

--> On a broader, societal level, what do you think of the perception of the abuser/victim dichotomy? How do you think abusers are perceived? How do you think victims are perceived? Is it accurate? Does that matter?
I think society looks down to abusers but at the same time they blame the victims.

See my responses above.

Excellent topic! And I have no idea.

Every response to the topic of "recovery" so far has offered therapy and a good support system as the best approach to recovering from abuse, and I think this would also apply to learning to forgive an abusive parent. In particular, I think it's important that you talk with people who have been through the same and have learned how to cope with their pasts, to learn from them or even just to know you're not alone.

By "forgive," I don't mean that one should excuse the abuser's behavior, but let go of negative emotions toward them. Forgiveness is for your benefit, so that you begin to heal. Therapy is quite helpful in this area because it helps you understand how your past affected you, among other things.

Can abuse be prevented / What power does the victim have, if any?

Everyone seems to agree that knowledge and education are important factors in preventing abuse. No arguments there. As TunedOut stated, knowledge is power. Before we can do anything else, we must first be able to see an abusive situation for what it is.
Open Eyes and divine1966 also brought up some very good points - that there are many different types of abuse, many different types of abusers, and many different types of victims. All of these factors come into play, so I’d go one further and say that we need not only know the “red flags” of abuse, but also the different types of abuse. The various shades of red, so to speak. As divine mentioned, what power a victim has isn’t always clear. A young child is going to have a much more difficult time escaping an abusive parent than an adult would when trying to escape an abusive romantic partner.
Open question: How do we contextualize this? And what should we do about it? Maybe the kids can’t prevent it, but perhaps onlookers can (e.g. neighbors, friends, teachers, etc.) if they recognize it in time.
As an aside: I haven’t read The Gift of Fear in a long time, but I recall that the author discussed several different types of abusers and how to recognize them.

12AM emphasized that abuse can be prevented “by the victims,” and many of the responses seem to focus almost entirely on the victim’s role in the relationship. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but why is that?

golden_eve also made the distinction between “prevent” and “avoid,” that we can do the latter, but not necessarily the former. When I said, “prevent abuse,” I was actually thinking of “leaving the relationship before it becomes abusive,” but that’s just semantics. If you’re seeing “prevent” as “attempt to control the potential abuser’s behavior” while also staying in the relationship, then sure, I agree that it’s a terrible idea. While I don’t think it’s impossible, that’s a very dangerous course of action, and I wouldn’t suggest it to anyone who’s in an abusive relationship. Oddly, it also seems to be the course of action a lot of people tend to take, from what I've experienced, even when their friends are pointing out all the red flags and urging them to exit the relationship.

So, why do you think this is the common response, even though there's a plethora of information on the "red flags" of abusive relationships? golden_eve suggested "love bombing," and certainly abusers have even more tactics they use to manipulate their partner into staying in spite of all the warning signs. On top of that, I think there's also a weird cultural taboo around abusive, controlling behavior and stark power dynamics between two partners. On the one hand, we have all this information on what abuse looks like, and on the other, we have many examples of popart which tend to glamorize the same behavior. Moreover, I think the popart is winning, and I think it's winning because it has a more appealing narrative, because it shows nuance and depth of character. I think, if we want to change the cultural landscape on a deeper level, we need to better utilize artistic expression.

Open Eyes, yes, it's very broad, and I did this deliberately. Like I said, I'm not really trying to make any sort of argument, nor do I really want to guide the discussion. I just want people to be able to discuss whatever ideas they're interested in and allow the conversation to evolve.

Also, please feel free to challenge any of my ideas.

I agree with this.

I am going through a journey on forgiveness for my dying father. I have choices to make. I think recovery is about choices, and having the freedom to make healthy choices vs. destructive ones. An abuser attempts to take away choices and make the victim feel helpless and unable to leave, praying on their weak boundaries and emotional instabilities.

For me the abuse I experienced as an adult was a recreation of many aspects of my childhood abuse. I didn't learn about boundaries until I was an adult. If I had been psychologically healthier I don't think I would have been attracted to the same people. Not all of my relationships were abusive, and I hope my son has escaped this pattern of human behavior and has the right skills to have healthy relationships.

I personally mentioned responsibility of victims because I have met people and come across people etc who find victimhood beneficial to them in many ways so they choose to remain a victim due to those benefits. I know it’s unpopular opinion but I stand by it. Some people are literally “professional life long victims”.

theoretical, you wrote in a different thread about forgiveness

I have read everything you have written in that thread on forgiveness. My abusive father is presently dying from pancreatic cancer and this has brought up a lot of questions for me and sadness too. I am crying a lot. I also told him today that I loved him and he said he loved me too. I think for me forgiveness is a process. It is not black or white.

That is what I am focussing on.

I guess it depends on how one defines a monster. It helps me to realize that my dying father can no longer frighten and beat me and laugh and tell me that I 'want to be a victim'. Both my parents would laugh and say this when I was 10 years old while they both were beating the crap out of me. It is just a sad fact of my life now.

I agree on all counts. Recovery, and even simply having a healthy relationship, requires that one has the freedom to make healthy choices. And yes, forgiveness is a process, usually a long and winding journey with various obstacles, and it can't be forced or rushed.

I'm sorry to hear that your parents put you through that, and I hope you can find some sort of peace.

Yes, I knew of a woman who stayed in an abusive relationship because he was rich and he bought her a lot of very expensive things. A lot of people tried help her, and she at least seemed to understand the risks she was taking, but she stayed with him regardless. He was like 30 years her senior, so I think she figured he would've died soon enough anyway. She wasn't wrong.

To be clear, I don't blame this woman for the abuse she endured. She could not have been responsible for actions committed against her. That's impossible.

at times forgiveness does not have to be offered. I do not forgive the people that abused me. they were adults..supposedly responsible ones who should have known better...why should I forgive their horrible actions? they did damage to me.

I do not linger on their actions, nor on the damage they caused. I have healed and moved ahead with my life but I do not forgive them. I hold them responsible for what they did. they mean nothing to me. there was never a sense of caring from them at all. even as a child I had moved on and separated from them. I was different and more accountable even as a child, then they could ever be.

so yes, forgiveness is not always required nor desired in an abusive requirement.

It’s common for people (especially women) to stay because they are being financially supported. I personally cannot grasp why someone would endure misery instead of simply getting a job but it’s fine if others choose such life. But then I don’t understand complaining and gaining sympathy if their reason for staying is simply lack of desire to be employed.

Waiting until someone dies could get tricky. My grandparents (years ago) had a neighbour who married much older wealthy man and she literally thought he dies soon. Yup she wasn’t shy about it. He lived to be over a 100. No kidding. By then she was 70 or something. Stupid idea marrying someone for that reason. What a waste of life. Well she deserved that for her greed and laziness

What do you think are some myths about abusive relationships that are damaging? / On a broader, societal level, what do you think of the perception of the abuser/victim dichotomy?

Myth: Abuse is easily recognizable and always physical, as mentioned by TunedOut and 12AM.

This is one that I think is perpetuated mostly by fictional portrayals, and even by how the news portrays abuse cases. Emotional abuse tends to get overlooked entirely, and the media focus primarily on the overt physical abuse, not on the years of emotional damage leading up to that point. Therefore, people get the impression that they’d be able to recognize abuse and flee before it gets out of hand. It gives us a false sense of security, and it leads some people to wonder why the victim couldn’t recognize what, according to them, should’ve been obvious. I’d even hazard a guess that a lot of victim blaming stems from false perceptions of abusive behavior that we pick up from the media.

On the other hand, if you write a fictional portrayal that’s too realistic, the audience might fall in love with the fictional abuser.

Myth: As a bystander — relationships are personal, and it’s not my place to get involved in someone else’s personal affairs.

Which can lead to something that TishaBuv brought up: “I think people look the other way and don’t do anything to stop abusers who aren’t abusing them.” I’m not even sure if people genuinely believe that myth, or if they’re just using it as an excuse for inaction, to hide the truth that they’re afraid to act.

I’m not really sure how to go about this one, because trying to help could worsen the situation and put you in danger. If one does intervene, I would strongly recommend to handle with care, lest you realize you’re dumping gasoline on the fire instead of water. Or better, talk to someone who knows what they’re doing and see if they’d be willing to help. Other suggestions?

Myth: Abusers are cunning and calculating predators who are skilled in the art of manipulation. Or rather, they’re monsters.

There are no monsters. I mentioned it before in a different thread, and I’d like to elaborate. To be clear, I’m not imploring others to have some compassion for abusers. The victim should prioritize their own safety above all else. Also, I’m just not a compassionate person. But rather, I’m pointing it out because “monster” and “predator” are loaded terms that imply lack of vulnerability. Perpetuating that image can make their victims feel even more powerless. When you perceive your oppressor as an inhuman monster, escaping them seems like an impossible task. The reality is that most abusers are hardly masterminds.

By contrast, “victim” has also become a loaded term — what’s the opposite of “predator”? Despite the best efforts of domestic violence awareness groups to empower victims, the term “victim” tends to imply vulnerability and lack of power. And I think this very black and white portrayal is why so many people in abusive relationships fail to see real abuse, because it doesn’t match their idea of what abuse looks like. Most victims probably don’t see themselves as demure, powerless women (many of them aren’t even women), and they don’t want to be associated with that image. And likewise, most abusers probably don’t see themselves as cunning manipulators, even if some of them do want to be associated with that image. Therefore, they reason that the relationship must not be actual abuse. Right?

theoretical, there ARE predators and it's important to learn about how these individuals groom their victims to think they can be trusted when their real plan is to overpower or USE the individual they have targeted for their own selfish needs. There ARE individuals like Bill Cosby that can seem like someone to look up to when he used that image to lure in many innocent young women that he drugged and raped.

I agree that there are predators in this world and the best you can do to protect yourself is to learn to recognize and get away from these people. Avoidance is prevention. "Monster" is a term that encourages a feeling of helplessness, so I prefer the word predator.

About what forgiveness is and what it is not, Skeezyks posted a number of articles on psychcentral in a different tread. My father died last night. I am glad I was able to re-establish contact with him and tell him that I loved him and say goodbye. He was accepting of his death and wanted it to be quick. He went out with 'no grudges' against anyone but didn't ask for forgiveness.

I am slowly digesting this psychcentral blog post on forgiveness: Forgiveness: Why You Should Consider It and How to Forgive

“Which can lead to something that TishaBuv brought up: “I think people look the other way and don’t do anything to stop abusers who aren’t abusing them.” I’m not even sure if people genuinely believe that myth, or if they’re just using it as an excuse for inaction, to hide the truth that they’re afraid to act.”

It has been my personal experience in my family dynamic.

“THE BYSTANDER IS AN ENABLER


‘In the end we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.’

Martin Luther King Jr


‘You may choose to look the other way but you can never again say that you did not know.’

William Wilberforce


An enabler can be described as a person who enables another to achieve an end, especially one who enables another to persist in destructive behaviour by providing excuses, concealing bad behaviour or helping an individual avoid the consequences of their behaviour.

Yeah, there are people who use predatory type behavior to control others. Cosby's certainly one. But when it comes to the different types of abusers, I'd argue that the cold, calculating predators like Cosby are in the minority, yet that's the type we hear about most often, and the type that's most commonly portrayed in movies. Hell, even the few primary psychopaths I've met were hardly the suave, cunning manipulators as portrayed by Billy Campbell in Enough or the pornstache guy in that one Julia Roberts movie. Even informational text on recognizing abusers kind of makes it seem like these abusers are a lot more powerful than they actually are, like all of their behavior and manipulations are planned and deliberate "tactics." In my experience with actual abusers, that just doesn't ring true. Some of their behaviors are probably deliberate tactics, such as attempts to isolate the victim. But for the most part, I think a lot of abusers have the emotional maturity of a 10-year-old, and most of their behavior stems from that.

Again, I think the terminology is misleading because of the connotations around the term, not that people never use predatory tactics. It's very one-dimensional, and it conjures up images of remorseless monsters. I doubt most abusers would identify with that sort of image. Consequently, they fail to recognize their own behavior as abusive. They don't feel like remorseless predators, therefore they don't feel like what they're doing is truly abusive.

On the flipside, I've been on the receiving end of what would technically be labelled as abuse (I was slapped and whipped with a stick by an ex-boyfriend), yet I don't feel like a victim, and therefore I wouldn't label him as an abuser. It just doesn't resonate with me. Would it still be deemed abuse if I didn't feel like I had been abused?