[lizardlady]

This is likely to be long. I'm likely to come back and add to the whole thig as I think this through. Some times I do my best thinking out loud talking to someone or writing it out.

I have a friendship I am beginning to have doubts about. This person and I have known each other since junior high. We're both mid-60s now. This person has a history of cancelling out on things at the last minute. She also has a history of being pissed about something, but refusing to admit she's angry. She sulks when she's angry.

We usually spend Christmas holidays at her place when her brother and sister-in-law come from out of state for the holidays. She lives in the same state as me, but about 150 miles away. Back in a couple of months she told me that she didn't know if brother and sil were coming. The state they live in requires residents to quarantine for 14 days if they go out of state. SIL would not be able to work if she quarantined. I said I was uncomfortable being around people from out of state myself because of Covid. When I talked to her at Thanksgiving she still didn't know if they could come or not. I'd done some research and the county I live in has more Covid cases than their entire state. I told her that whether they could come or not I'd come up and fix Christmas dinner.

Then the last couple of weeks she didn't answer my phone calls or reply to most of my texts. In the baaack of my mind I thought she must be ticked about something, but had no idea what.

I finally got her on the phone Saturday. She was distant. Then she's telling me that she was talking to the woman who lives across the street from her and told her she didn't have any plans to Christmas so they are going to get together that day. WTF!?!?!? I reminded her that I said I would come up and fix dinner. She told me she wants to skip Christmas. Her exact words were "F it." Turns out her bother and SIL are not coming because of Covid and work.

So she is going to spend Christmas with her new friend who lives across the street and Liz gets to... well I'll sorting out what I'm going to do.

I'm finally getting to the point of this post. I was hurt and angry by what she said. I thought about calling her back and trying to talk about it. When I was afraid to try and talk to her about it I realized it felt like a repeat of the abuse cycle. I'm walking on eggshells so I don't piss her off and have to pay the consequences. I've given myself a few days to process it and I still feel the same. I'm wondering if I even want to try to save the relationship. She's been this way the whole time I've known her. Something would upset her and she would refuse to talk or participate in things to "punish" the offender.

I imagine she is disappointed that her brother and SIL are not coming down. Covid has screwed up plans for a lot of us. I was looking forward to seeing people not related to my work. The only people I've seen other than co-workers and clients since Covid hit are strangers at the grocery store. So because she doesn't get things the way she wants Christmas gets cancelled.

I'm hurt and I'm angry. Yeah, Covid's forced plans to be changed by everyone. I'm sick to death of "making lemonade" because something got cancelled or had to be done differently because of the damned virus. Having a temper tantrum is not going to change that.

Bless you if you made it this far. This thing turned into a book. Sorry.

[*Beth*]

I apologize, I'm rushing this reply - but I want to address your concern.

I have several girlfriends that are life-long friends, we've been friends for over half a century. So I know how important those relationships are. In many ways I've felt my many-decades friends as closer than my extended family.

If one of my friends treated me the way your friend is treating you (abusively) I'd let the friendship dwindle. I know how hard that is, and how much it hurts to lose so much history. However, your intuition is correct, in my opinion. The woman's passive-aggressive behavior is just plain not cool. Not healthy for you.

If you are able to ask her if something is wrong, or directly "It sounds like you're angry about something. Would you like to talk about it?" That would be terrific. See where she takes it from there. Let her know how you feel. Have a dialogue.

If none of that happens, I think of the old adage...With friends like that, who needs enemies?

[Nammu]

I’m sorry Liz, that has to be hard. I’ve no great suggestions just wanted you to know I feel your anger and disappointment. That was not nice of her at all. That walking on eggshells is a terrible place to be.

[Open Eyes]

I remember you talking about this friend before Liz. It sounds like this individual actually gets depressed and doesn’t want to fuss period. Perhaps COVID gives her just another reason to avoid. I am sorry in that I don’t think she really realizes she is letting YOU down when she does this. She probably actually doesn’t think she is very important. Hense she gives off this negative feeling that you find so disappointing.

Honestly given how bad COVID is right now you are safer not going anywhere even though you want to get out and socialize.

At least it’s better to know now then last minute. It’s understandable you are so disappointed and angry.

What do you think about just telling her how her actions affected you? Have you guys ever had a convo about the way she handles conflict? I'm sorry she did that, btw, and I'm sorry you're going to spend Christmas alone now. It sounds like though, this is...a long standing thing, the way she acts. I understand your frustration.

[unaluna]

Liz, im sorry, you deserve better than this

I think i have often felt like your friend, afraid to be assertive, and end up being passive-aggressive and hurting people because i did not take responsibility.

It sounds to me like she is trying to not take responsibility for the plans for this holiday. Like she also feels backed into a corner? She didnt know how to handle the competing, simultaneous requests (and then dropped requests) for her company, and maybe her neighbor lumped you in with her brother and ran with that. KWIM?

Obviously she should have talked to you first before making plans with the neighbor. Heck, even i know how you usually spend xmas, and i dont even know you.

But this is the kind of thing that sends me scurrying back to my hidey-hole, because i would be trying to keep one person on the line and maybe being bullied by a new person? That is, before i became the lovely assertive being i am today, thanks to the good example of many friends at PC.

[seesaw]

I think you have to stop walking on eggshells and just confront her, compassionately, with her behavior and how it affects you. If she gets passive aggressive, confront her for that, but again, compassionately. Tell her you want to have a healthy friendship but some thing she does hurt you, and when you can't talk about how you feel without her getting passive aggressive, so that hurts the friendship too. If she can't have the conversation with you, then it's just unhealthy for you and time to let it go...

[divine1966]

I am sorry

I could understand if she decided to not do anything at all like just be home alone and perhaps suggested that you two hang out together for New Years or something.

I understand skipping holidays but its not what she is doing. She will spend Christmas with a friend, just not with you. I’d be very hurt.

I’d understand if you want to distance yourself from this friend or depending on the situation speak to her about your feelings.

But people don’t change. That’s how she is. She won’t change. Maybe if she was a young girl. But if that’s who she is in mid 60s, that’s who she is

I totally get how you feel. I’ve met few women in life who routinely cancelled without consideration (usually “boy crazy” women who rearrange their entire lives and ditch their girlfriends to be available for a man, any man). It taught me to be very selective about friends.

And sometimes friendships dwindle with time and it might be time for them to go.

[divine1966]

I think the fact that she told her neighbor that she had no plans is the most hurtful part. She had plans with Liz.

Was it not important enough to mention?

Nah I don’t buy the story of this poor friend caught in the middle awe she didn’t know what to say to a neighbor. If I have a friend coming over and neighbor asks me what I am doing for a holiday, I’d say that I have a friend coming over. It’s simple.

[sarahsweets]

Liz I personally would let things dwindle but I dont know if I would without telling her why, That is up to you though. If you think that telling her how hurt you are would be cathartic or satisfying then i say do it but if it would hurt more than just let things slide away peacefully.

[lizardlady]

Several of you mentioned she might be depressed. I've suspected that for awhile. I gently suggested she see someone about it. She hates doctors so won't see a pdoc. Therapy? According to her it's BS. That one stung given what I do for a living. It's hard to see someone I care for in treatable pain, but I can't force her to get help.

I don't think she felt caught between me and the neighbor. The neighbor asked if she had plans for Christmas and she said "no." She could have said I was coming up. Add to that I suggested we invite the neighbor for dinner when I said I'd fix dinner.

I'm still deciding about confronting her about the whole thing. Confronting her does not go well. We have very different approaches to this sort of thing. I prefer to be open with the person, confront the situation, come up with a solution and move on. She denies there is a problem while collecting grievances. Nothing gets addressed or resolved.

I normally text her every day or two and we talk by phone a couple of times a week. I decided not to text or call for a bit. I wondered if I was being passive aggressive. I don't think I am. I feel like I'm hurting and need some time and space to heal.

Thanks to everyone for your replies.

[divine1966]

It’s perfectly fine to keep your distance while you are figuring out how to proceed and how to sort your feelings and what’s the best.

It’s entirely possible she is depressed. That’s why I’d totally get it if she wanted to do nothing for the holidays. Even not being depressed justifies wanting to do nothing during pandemics. But depression doesn’t justify blatantly wanting to spend time with one friend over another and being kind of back handed and rude about it

Of course we can make it all about her: poor victim of being caught up in between and she is so depressed and doesn’t know how to speak up. But that’s how some people get away with things. Too depressed, doesn’t know better, had bad childhood, her brother is mean to her not coming for holidays etc etc When does it end? She is a grown up. I’d expect better behavior from 60 year old.

Personally I’d let my feelings subside a bit and keep my distance and then reassess if I need a friend who I get hurt by and have to walk on egg shells around

[Open Eyes]

She denies there is a problem while collecting grievances. Nothing gets addressed or resolved.

This is how she learned to maintain a sense of control Liz. And she doesn't feel any therapist can help or possibly understand her if she were to share all these grievances. She may even see a therapist as an authority type figure and she has too many disappointments when it comes to authority type figures in all those greivences she collected.

Often a person who has a lot of grievances and gets depressed pushes people away or avoids personal time with certain people not because they don't like that person, but instead don't want to spend time that includes someone in THEIR SPACE. So basically, it's their own company they don't want to hang out with in certain situations because they know it can get too taxing on them.

A choice to spend time with a neighbor means less work. It means a presence that doesn't know her enough to expect from her. It's also a situation where she can probably walk away should she get tired instead of having someone she has to deal with for more time as they cook or take over her home or space. This neighbor most likely invited her to their home, this was something much easier for her as it's not in her space and she can exit when she wants to. This is what she is saying when she cancels so much too. It's not YOU personally Liz, but more about what she struggles to manage. Often this isn't something a person is consciously aware of per say, but how anxiety builds up in them as it gets closer to the gathering date.

All these grievances are part of who she is now. She navigates her life now avoiding because she probably had her boundaries invaded in each of these grievances.

A while back you said something in a thread that really stood out to me. You said "It doesn't matter what people tell me about abuse etc. I would hear it but not act based on their advice because I prefer to DO IT MYSELF and MAKE UP MY OWN MIND." You had a problem you had dealt with for a long time, and you wanted to handle it yourself and you actually did make a plan of your own. You wanted to make changes that would give you power to make a choice. Your biggest disappointment was the problem got resolved for you and you were angry because it did not give you a chance to follow through with YOUR plan. That's a grievance you carry right? Well, you did not get to remove the problem the way you wanted, but you gained skills to thrive despite his absence which is what you wanted.

As a woman in her mid sixties, your friend most likely isn't going to change much. Yet, Liz, this isn't about you personally. She really isn't choosing this neighbor over you either, instead she is choosing something that is the easiest for her to handle. Her changing plans with you isn't so much about you either, instead it is what she can ultimately handle. She doesn't know how to explain that to you and maybe all she can do is what you have been doing with her where the two of you mostly talk on the phone.

What have you offered? Let me come to you and I will cook and do this or that right? In other words, let me take over YOUR SPACE. She doesn't want that Liz. Also, she doesn't want to see a therapist either because she doesn't want any therapist taking over her space either. This is not an attack on you personally, instead it's a general statement. Did you ever see a sign that says "My barn, My rules"? It's the same thing pretty much.

Your friend isn't going to respond well if you talk to her in any way that is "instructive or takes over". She will not respond well to any discussion where she feels she must give into demands of some kind. She tries to say "I like you and you are my friend" BUT, "I am not good at letting others take over my space anymore".

Now, all that I have just stated may not be exactly on target because I am not privy to all your experiences and conversations with this friend. All I know of her has been what you have shared. She has disappointed you before and I am thinking about possible reasons she does this that you may not be seeing because you feel angry or hurt. I already know you prefer to do things your way, yet, it helps to step back from one's own feelings and look at the bigger picture. Also, I am not telling you what is actually in this picture either, all I am doing is offering a possible that you may not be seeing or confirming something you sense but have not yet defined objectively because you are angry and disappointed.

I normally text her every day or two and we talk by phone a couple of times a week. I decided not to text or call for a bit. I wondered if I was being passive aggressive. I don't think I am. I feel like I'm hurting and need some time and space to heal.

When you question if you are being passive aggressive, it's a good time to step back and evaluate. Choosing to punish or withdraw may only hurt you more and that's not what you need to experience right now.

[lizardlady]

OE, you jumped to a ton of conclusions here, many of them wrong. That comment from me about being angry with my abusive husband for dying before I could leave is not a grievance I carry around. It was something I felt in my grief. I don't still carry it around.

As for my friend and grievances, maybe I chose the wrong word. She gets pissed off, never gives anyone any idea what she's pissed about and stays angry, letting it fester. Then the way its supposed to go is that the other person is supposed to figure out what they did and apologize. I decided to stop playing that game several years ago.

I have no idea why you think her "grievances" are due to someone violating her boundaries. The reality is she gets her panties in a know over something but won't acknowledge what she's pissed about. Recently she ignored her cat for two days to "teach him a lesson" because he did something that's normal for cats to do.

The whole point of my original post was about what happened over thee weekend made me feel. It wasn't about her, her boundaries, her whatever. May I respectfully request you drop this whole line of defending her?

My original point was that after the fact I had the same emotional reaction I did to abuse in the past. It made me see that her behavior was abusive. Devine, you are right, it doesn't matter what happened in a person's life that lead to them being abusive. The behavior is not acceptable. This friend told me not so long ago that it is okay to make everyone around you miserable if you are having a bad day or are unhappy. I strongly disagree. If I'm having a bad day I don't have the right to rain on everyone else's parade.

As for my comment that I wondered if I was being passive-aggressive because I want to step back before I say something to her. That's not passive aggressive behavior. I give myself credit for stopping to examine why I want to step back. The whole point of PA behavior is to be aggressive. I'm not. As I said, I'm doing it to give myself a chance to heal/recover. She sent me a text earlier today with a pic of her cat. I responded.

Oh *heck* this whole thing has turned into my friend and is she depressed, poor baby. Crap, this feels like part of the abuse cycle too. I'm the bad guy for not understanding she's depressed, hurt, overwhelmed, whatever. I'm ready to ask mods to pull the whold damned thread.

[Nammu]

I personally don’t care if she’s depressed she had no right to diss you like that. I agree with you 100% if someone is having a bad day it’s no excuse to treat others badly. I also think giving people with bad attitudes a pass is a load of crap. As a human they are responsible for being social. teaching the cat a lesson?! Boy she could use a therapist!

[unaluna]

Geez, im sorry if i tainted this thread. I recalled myself not being able to handle conflicting desires. It was like TEN YEARS LATER that my mother told me i could bring my friend M to xmas, that even my brother and SIL said it was okay NOW.

Ten years later. when i was like 60.

Anyway, it is great when you get to the point where you just say, wtf are you even talking about. M who?

Anyway, sorry for the taint!

[divine1966]

Liz you aren’t in the wrong.

Maybe this person believes that treating others poorly is justified because her life is a mess or because she refuses to seek proper help or what not. But her believing so doesn’t make it true. Yes some people believe that they are within their rights to treat others poorly because they are miserable. Thats not how life works.

She isn’t a child. There is a concept of personal responsibility for one’s words and actions. Seems a foreign concept for this lady

she is in the wrong here. And you don’t need to put up with such behavior.

“Teaching cat a lesson”. That’s rich

[lizardlady]

(*(*(*(*unaluna*)*)*)*)

Hon, you didn't taint anything.

[seesaw]

What's that thing Marie Kondo says? If it doesn't bring you joy, get rid of it? It sounds like this relationship is an obligation not something that brings value to your life. I'm not suggesting that people flippantly eschew long-term relationships/friendships, but maybe you would feel a sense of relief to get rid of something that was toxic to you (this friendship).

I have hung onto certain relationships for the sake of the length I'd been in them, and when I finally ended them I discovered how free and renewed I felt. And then sometimes those relationships can be rekindled when people do the healing they need to do on their own.

I don't believe that people are who they are at any age. Transformation can happen at any age for any person. But certainly it's not something to hold your breath for.

If you don't feel like you can confront her and have the conversation, then just end it. No need to put yourself through further pain. Life is too short to spend it trying to please other people.

[sarahsweets]

Originally Posted by lizardlady

OE, you jumped to a ton of conclusions here, many of them wrong. That comment from me about being angry with my abusive husband for dying before I could leave is not a grievance I carry around. It was something I felt in my grief. I don't still carry it around.

As for my friend and grievances, maybe I chose the wrong word. She gets pissed off, never gives anyone any idea what she's pissed about and stays angry, letting it fester. Then the way its supposed to go is that the other person is supposed to figure out what they did and apologize. I decided to stop playing that game several years ago.

I have no idea why you think her "grievances" are due to someone violating her boundaries. The reality is she gets her panties in a know over something but won't acknowledge what she's pissed about. Recently she ignored her cat for two days to "teach him a lesson" because he did something that's normal for cats to do.

The whole point of my original post was about what happened over thee weekend made me feel. It wasn't about her, her boundaries, her whatever. May I respectfully request you drop this whole line of defending her?

My original point was that after the fact I had the same emotional reaction I did to abuse in the past. It made me see that her behavior was abusive. Devine, you are right, it doesn't matter what happened in a person's life that lead to them being abusive. The behavior is not acceptable. This friend told me not so long ago that it is okay to make everyone around you miserable if you are having a bad day or are unhappy. I strongly disagree. If I'm having a bad day I don't have the right to rain on everyone else's parade.

As for my comment that I wondered if I was being passive-aggressive because I want to step back before I say something to her. That's not passive aggressive behavior. I give myself credit for stopping to examine why I want to step back. The whole point of PA behavior is to be aggressive. I'm not. As I said, I'm doing it to give myself a chance to heal/recover. She sent me a text earlier today with a pic of her cat. I responded.

Oh *heck* this whole thing has turned into my friend and is she depressed, poor baby. Crap, this feels like part of the abuse cycle too. I'm the bad guy for not understanding she's depressed, hurt, overwhelmed, whatever. I'm ready to ask mods to pull the whold damned thread.

I just wanted to say that your friends issues have nothing to do imo with her being a rude inconsiderate friend. She’s choosing to do Christmas with her neighbor. Personally she can f**k off after that nonsense. You are totally in the right on this one. Who cares what her depression is or motivations are. It’s sh***y of her. Plain and simple. You are not wrong and I’m sorry some people in this thread decided to analysis your friends issues when all you wanted was support.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by divine1966

I think the fact that she told her neighbor that she had no plans is the most hurtful part. She had plans with Liz.

Was it not important enough to mention?

Nah I don’t buy the story of this poor friend caught in the middle awe she didn’t know what to say to a neighbor. If I have a friend coming over and neighbor asks me what I am doing for a holiday, I’d say that I have a friend coming over. It’s simple.

Totally agree with you. I've had people do this and it makes me question how they really feel about me as a friend. Usually it means they don't see me as a friend.

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by lizardlady

This is likely to be long. I'm likely to come back and add to the whole thig as I think this through. Some times I do my best thinking out loud talking to someone or writing it out.

I have a friendship I am beginning to have doubts about. This person and I have known each other since junior high. We're both mid-60s now. This person has a history of cancelling out on things at the last minute. She also has a history of being pissed about something, but refusing to admit she's angry. She sulks when she's angry.

We usually spend Christmas holidays at her place when her brother and sister-in-law come from out of state for the holidays. She lives in the same state as me, but about 150 miles away. Back in a couple of months she told me that she didn't know if brother and sil were coming. The state they live in requires residents to quarantine for 14 days if they go out of state. SIL would not be able to work if she quarantined. I said I was uncomfortable being around people from out of state myself because of Covid. When I talked to her at Thanksgiving she still didn't know if they could come or not. I'd done some research and the county I live in has more Covid cases than their entire state. I told her that whether they could come or not I'd come up and fix Christmas dinner.

Then the last couple of weeks she didn't answer my phone calls or reply to most of my texts. In the baaack of my mind I thought she must be ticked about something, but had no idea what.

I finally got her on the phone Saturday. She was distant. Then she's telling me that she was talking to the woman who lives across the street from her and told her she didn't have any plans to Christmas so they are going to get together that day. WTF!?!?!? I reminded her that I said I would come up and fix dinner. She told me she wants to skip Christmas. Her exact words were "F it." Turns out her bother and SIL are not coming because of Covid and work.

So she is going to spend Christmas with her new friend who lives across the street and Liz gets to... well I'll sorting out what I'm going to do.

I'm finally getting to the point of this post. I was hurt and angry by what she said. I thought about calling her back and trying to talk about it. When I was afraid to try and talk to her about it I realized it felt like a repeat of the abuse cycle. I'm walking on eggshells so I don't piss her off and have to pay the consequences. I've given myself a few days to process it and I still feel the same. I'm wondering if I even want to try to save the relationship. She's been this way the whole time I've known her. Something would upset her and she would refuse to talk or participate in things to "punish" the offender.

I imagine she is disappointed that her brother and SIL are not coming down. Covid has screwed up plans for a lot of us. I was looking forward to seeing people not related to my work. The only people I've seen other than co-workers and clients since Covid hit are strangers at the grocery store. So because she doesn't get things the way she wants Christmas gets cancelled.

I'm hurt and I'm angry. Yeah, Covid's forced plans to be changed by everyone. I'm sick to death of "making lemonade" because something got cancelled or had to be done differently because of the damned virus. Having a temper tantrum is not going to change that.

Bless you if you made it this far. This thing turned into a book. Sorry.

I'm so sorry about that. I've had people do that to me. I've had friends in the past claim that they are not doing anything or don't have plans even though me and them are planning on hanging out or even in the process of hanging out. Its makes me question the friendship and I've learned that it usually means they don't see me as a friend. It sounds like this friend doesn't feel that close. Still, she shouldn't disrespect you like that and you should confront her. I know that is hard, I try to avoid confrontation as much as possible but sometimes it needs to be done. I've had people in the past play mind games like that where they are angry but won't tell you why. It comes off as manipulative.

[lizardlady]

I've come to some decisions...

I am going to talk to her about how I felt about the way she told me about Christmas. She may get pissed, she may not. I decided that saying something would assertive and standing up for myself. If she gets pissed so be it.

I said in my original post I'm tired of "making lemonade" because of the damned Covid virus, but I'm gonna make lemonade about this. The last few weeks at work have been exhausting. I'm worn down to a nubbin. Not going to her house saves me two days of driving this week. Because of a medical condition driving that far causes me a lot of pain and is exhausting.

I was waffling back and forth about putting up a Christmas tree. I was afraid of what the cats would do to it if I was gone for three days. I'm going to have a one person party and put it up.

I'm planning a special dinner for myself on Christmas Day. Except for cooking I might spend the day sprawled on the couch napping.

I'm still hurt by the back handed way she told me about her change of plans, but I feel better for having made some decisions

[Nammu]

Yay Liz. You go girl!!! 🎈🎉🎊🍾

[rdgrad15]

Originally Posted by lizardlady

I've come to some decisions...

I am going to talk to her about how I felt about the way she told me about Christmas. She may get pissed, she may not. I decided that saying something would assertive and standing up for myself. If she gets pissed so be it.

I said in my original post I'm tired of "making lemonade" because of the damned Covid virus, but I'm gonna make lemonade about this. The last few weeks at work have been exhausting. I'm worn down to a nubbin. Not going to her house saves me two days of driving this week. Because of a medical condition driving that far causes me a lot of pain and is exhausting.

I was waffling back and forth about putting up a Christmas tree. I was afraid of what the cats would do to it if I was gone for three days. I'm going to have a one person party and put it up.

I'm planning a special dinner for myself on Christmas Day. Except for cooking I might spend the day sprawled on the couch napping.

I'm still hurt by the back handed way she told me about her change of plans, but I feel better for having made some decisions

I think you made the right decision. If she wants to be with someone else, then so be it. Wouldn’t want to be at a place I wasn’t wanted. Also saying something is a good idea. Yes she may get mad, and judging by her previous behavior, she most likely will. But at least you will send a message saying that what she did was rude and that you won’t put up with it. I had friends in the past that had trouble being called out on and didn’t want to admit that they did something wrong. I’m not friends with those people anymore.