[Snap66]

I don't understand how a person can have constant issues with everyone they meet, yet cannot see that it's not the other person. I can accept if they have issue with a few people...but with everyone they meet is a bit much to swallow.
Its like The boy who cried wolf.

If I wrote the same thing over and over again- constantly blaming- never taking responsibility for your actions I would be self conscience of what people thought... and worried that I would be showing a pattern of behaviour that others could see, and make judgement- right or wrong.
This seems to be the furthest from their thinking. Which I has me asking this question.

I have AvPD so I tend to take responsibility for everything I say and do and look at everything under a microscope...so when I see a person constantly blaming others always having the same issues time and time again it confuses me to why they cant see it and to their way of thinking?

Sorry about the long post, trying to explain myself can be a difficult sometimes when trying to be sensitive to others.

[sarahsweets]

I cant stand that either. I tend to look at the common denominator. If someone is always having problems with everyone in their life and never owns their part- its usually because they are the ones with the problem.

No need to be sorry Snap66. I hear you and feel the same way about this type of person. They lack insight and can't see that.

[divine1966]

It’s sadly very common. People who always have troubles and issues pretty much everywhere they go rarely look at themselves and their own behaviors. It’s gotta be something they aren’t doing right. I think it’s certainly lack of insight and awareness. It’s really hard to help people like that because what do you really say to them? They don’t want to hear the truth anyways. But telling them it’s other people’s fault just encourages their behaviors.

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by Snap66

I don't understand how a person can have constant issues with everyone they meet, yet cannot see that it's not the other person. I can accept if they have issue with a few people...but with everyone they meet is a bit much to swallow.
Its like The boy who cried wolf.

If I wrote the same thing over and over again- constantly blaming- never taking responsibility for your actions I would be self conscience of what people thought... and worried that I would be showing a pattern of behaviour that others could see, and make judgement- right or wrong.
This seems to be the furthest from their thinking. Which I has me asking this question.

I have AvPD so I tend to take responsibility for everything I say and do and look at everything under a microscope...so when I see a person constantly blaming others always having the same issues time and time again it confuses me to why they cant see it and to their way of thinking?

Sorry about the long post, trying to explain myself can be a difficult sometimes when trying to be sensitive to others.

I understand, people who lack awareness of their own impact on their circumstances/situations are very challenging to interact with. What I try to remember is that there is something, whether it's a disorder or cognitive distortion or simple lack of emotional development, that's behind it. In many instances there is a narcissistic injury behind that behavior, where the person's identity is SO dependent upon their ability to be right about things, to be wrong or to have agency in a matter would actually cause them to destabilize.

I honestly don't think it's intentional that some people do this; I really think it's a protective mechanism, and it's very hard to change. Often, people who are like this, their identity is so dependent on outside factors and outside/external assessments, that any criticism or inkling that they had some responsibility in their situation threatens their identity. They aren't strong enough to be wrong (so to speak as it's not about right or wrong) and believe they are a good person even though they made a mistake. There seems to be an internal value judgment that if they've made a mistake then they are at fault or a bad person versus simply that there is not good or bad to it: they made a mistake and there was a result. It simply is what it is, but not good or bad.

So when presented with people who constantly blame others, I try to have empathy for why they behave this way, and I also limit my contact with them because they can be difficult to interact with as well. But I've definitely met people who behaved like this at one point, realized they were doing it, and were able to change their behavior. It's not an impossible thought process to change.

In the peer support groups through NAMI that I'm involved with and other advocacy work, it's not uncommon to run into people who know something is wrong in their lives but are not in the stage of readiness to look at any place for change within themselves, it all must be external at this point. People will change when they're ready, and some will never be ready. It's not our job as peer support to force change, just to support it when someone is ready to.

[Snap66]

Originally Posted by seesaw

I understand, people who lack awareness of their own impact on their circumstances/situations are very challenging to interact with. What I try to remember is that there is something, whether it's a disorder or cognitive distortion or simple lack of emotional development, that's behind it. In many instances there is a narcissistic injury behind that behavior, where the person's identity is SO dependent upon their ability to be right about things, to be wrong or to have agency in a matter would actually cause them to destabilize.

I honestly don't think it's intentional that some people do this; I really think it's a protective mechanism, and it's very hard to change. Often, people who are like this, their identity is so dependent on outside factors and outside/external assessments, that any criticism or inkling that they had some responsibility in their situation threatens their identity. They aren't strong enough to be wrong (so to speak as it's not about right or wrong) and believe they are a good person even though they made a mistake. There seems to be an internal value judgment that if they've made a mistake then they are at fault or a bad person versus simply that there is not good or bad to it: they made a mistake and there was a result. It simply is what it is, but not good or bad.

So when presented with people who constantly blame others, I try to have empathy for why they behave this way, and I also limit my contact with them because they can be difficult to interact with as well. But I've definitely met people who behaved like this at one point, realized they were doing it, and were able to change their behavior. It's not an impossible thought process to change.

What an amazing detailed response seesaw!
...and thanks to all the above who have helped to get me closer to my answer.

Its completely different to AvPD so when a person reacts or comments in a polar opposite it really confuses me.
While I will never see them in a positive light (sorry) bc their still lying, blaming never taking responsibility for ones actions, the above responses do help me immensely in understanding the background, or where their actions/reactions stem from.

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by Snap66

What an amazing detailed response seesaw!
...and thanks to all the above who have helped to get me closer to my answer.

Its completely different to AvPD so when a person reacts or comments in a polar opposite it really confuses me.
While I will never see them in a positive light (sorry) bc their still lying, blaming never taking responsibility for ones actions, the above responses do help me immensely in understanding the background, or where their actions/reactions stem from.

I know what you mean that you perceive it as lying but for them it occurs as their truth, which is important to remember when interacting with people who are not ready for this kind of change yet. My point is that no matter how much you argue, even though you and I would see their actions as contributing to a situation, they cannot possibly see that, because their experience of it is that reality is entirely that they have no role. One way of looking at this is that they are always "at effect" of everything around them rather than being "cause in the matter." But because their identity is so dependent upon being right, they can never be more than "at effect."

It's okay that you can't see someone in this stage in a positive light. The good thing is that you have identified that, for you, this kind of person bothers you, and it's probably best to limit contact or steer clear. I admit that in my roles in peer support and advocacy it's a big challenge for me too. Sometimes I'm in the frame of mind to handle someone like this, but often I'm not as it requires a great deal of patience.

Hugs.

[divine1966]

We had someone at work who made zero changes and showed zero insight for the entire year, several of us were assigned as his mentors, we tried kind and loving and then more direct approach. Nothing worked. He was convinced he is great and we make no sense. He ended up being fired.

There was another gentleman who got fired from so many jobs we lost count, he is vocal about it on social media and in the neighborhood, people know him, he then applied to work with us and certainly wasn’t hired, not only he was horrible at interview but also there must be a reason he gets let go from everywhere, then he was all over social media screaming how we did him wrong.

When dealing with such people in a professional capacity we got to try to help them and show them the way so to speak especially if we are in a position of supervision over them or mentor ship.

But if it’s my personal life and not professional obligation I simply have no interest in such people. I stir away. I can barely find time for things and people as it is. I think Snap66 if you do not need to associate with these folks, you keep the distance. Save yourself

Originally Posted by seesaw

I understand, people who lack awareness of their own impact on their circumstances/situations are very challenging to interact with. What I try to remember is that there is something, whether it's a disorder or cognitive distortion or simple lack of emotional development, that's behind it. In many instances there is a narcissistic injury behind that behavior, where the person's identity is SO dependent upon their ability to be right about things, to be wrong or to have agency in a matter would actually cause them to destabilize.

I honestly don't think it's intentional that some people do this; I really think it's a protective mechanism, and it's very hard to change. Often, people who are like this, their identity is so dependent on outside factors and outside/external assessments, that any criticism or inkling that they had some responsibility in their situation threatens their identity. They aren't strong enough to be wrong (so to speak as it's not about right or wrong) and believe they are a good person even though they made a mistake. There seems to be an internal value judgment that if they've made a mistake then they are at fault or a bad person versus simply that there is not good or bad to it: they made a mistake and there was a result. It simply is what it is, but not good or bad.

So when presented with people who constantly blame others, I try to have empathy for why they behave this way, and I also limit my contact with them because they can be difficult to interact with as well. But I've definitely met people who behaved like this at one point, realized they were doing it, and were able to change their behavior. It's not an impossible thought process to change.

In the peer support groups through NAMI that I'm involved with and other advocacy work, it's not uncommon to run into people who know something is wrong in their lives but are not in the stage of readiness to look at any place for change within themselves, it all must be external at this point. People will change when they're ready, and some will never be ready. It's not our job as peer support to force change, just to support it when someone is ready to.

This is So insightful and understanding seesaw! Your post here has helped me too.

[Prycejosh1987]

Originally Posted by Snap66

I don't understand how a person can have constant issues with everyone they meet, yet cannot see that it's not the other person. I can accept if they have issue with a few people...but with everyone they meet is a bit much to swallow.
Its like The boy who cried wolf.
Sorry about the long post, trying to explain myself can be a difficult sometimes when trying to be sensitive to others.

My sister used to do this. Over time she learned to accept that she will make mistakes. We are human and as humans we will make mistakes. These kind of problems stem from severe personal insecurities.

[SarahJane777]

I understand this very well as a member of my family is always having to be in control and always right. Tonight she even told me that she is the only one in the family who cares about my mom even though I have been caring foe her most of the last 2 years and accused me of lying about something ridiculous in front of my kids. They know I don’t lie so all she ended up doing was to show them her true colors. She makes me so sad. I often cry myself to sleep.

[Medusax]

I know someone like that. Even when she is caught doing something and there is no doubt she did it, she will deny it. Once, she and her ridiculously younger punk boyfriend vandalized our work place because she was angry over the fact that the boss came in late one night and caught them in the dining room smoking pot, and fired her. She blamed everyone and everything besides herself. She bought a used mattress set that had bed bugs, and tried to tell everyone that someone else in a neighboring apartment brought them in. In a job BEFORE the restaurant (nursing home, where I first met her) she told me she got in trouble for telling a patient to "shut up" rather loudly. She said she didn't and she was being persecuted, etc. Well, I HEARD her do it although I was down the hall at the time and did not know who she was talking to ....

[AzulOscuro]

I do agree with @seesaw It has to do with a narcissist wound.
These people who put the blame into others they are the ones who used to feel more vulnerable so they build a facade and if this facade is at risk, they don’t doubt to take action to put the blame into you so they can save their face.
This takes nobody to anywhere but they feel triggered if anyone dare to split their mask.

It has a lot to do with how a kid is brought up or raised by their parents. I can’t stress enough on that some people shouldn’t have kids.

[Open Eyes]

What do you think is suffering the most when it comes to "narcissisitic wounds"?

[AzulOscuro]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

What do you think is suffering the most when it comes to "narcissisitic wounds"?

I don’t know what Snap66 is gonna respond you but from what I know the more who suffer are the ones who are around a narcissistic person. If you are face to face to a fake person and you don’t know it, you are being fooled.
It seems they believed so deep their mask that they don’t conceive themselves in another way. They are protecting themselves but it’s already part of their personality.

[Open Eyes]

Ok, good AzulOscuro. And what do you think is being protected by the mask?

[AzulOscuro]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

Ok, good AzulOscuro. And what do you think is being protected by the mask?

Call me Azul, Open Eyes :-) , under the mask is someone very very scared and it’s not a problem at all if it’s only a trait, the problem is when it constitute a personality disorder, in this case is a pervasive pattern ingrain in the personality and not so easy to overcome.

I’m on Snap66’s side, I try to understand pretty everybody but I find very difficult to be beside an arrogant person. It’s just all the opposite to me. I can’t.
And I’m trying to understand where they are coming from.
I’m not a therapist. I can cope with little self-centred acts but up to it.

[AzulOscuro]

Guess, a father or a mother always tells the “golden guy” how good is his demeanour because he’s behaving exactly how (s)he wants. (S)he manipulates the guy exactly to behaves exactly how (s)he wants to. The guy does what every kid does, does whatever (s)he needs to do to survive and be loved.
(S)he behaves exactly as their parents expects. There’s no kid’s identity. The parents beat. (S)he will be what his /her parents expect from him/her if not, they are gonna make him/her know what the path is.

It’s a pity, I repeat that adults feel owners of kids. Those adults who feel themselves owners of kinds are very wrong.

[Open Eyes]

Yes, typically it's someone who never developed an identity of their own. So under this mask is often a frightened child or an angry child that felt they were in the shadows and could not seem to shine on their own. Anger is the worst too, "I am this, I am that and I deserve this and that!!!". And god forbid anyone prevent that because they will face a horrible wrath and will be deemed a terrible person.

The mask is the disorder and the only way to fix it is to try and change the mask and be someone new. This is why someone tends to be relieved once their mask stops working and they get out of a job or a relationship.

The problem is that even when the mask is changed a bit, the individual tends to use the same routine that ends up putting them in that bad place again. And typically the individual convinces themselves it's everyone else's fault because that way they can just affix a new mask and never actually have to change that part of them that is constantly "missing".

Often when this kind of individual gets real angry, they don't care about boundaries, not in anyone else, they just LET THE ANGER RIP AND RAGE. This is often what is called a "narcissistic rage".

[AzulOscuro]

You have explained it so well.
I’m being pretty harsh myself by blaming the parents. Maybe, it’s not so much a matter of blaming or guilty than responsibility and understand the dynamics that took place in a family.
It’s obvious that if I’m kind of stopped from showing my real self and conversely I’m reinforced when showing specific demeanours that fit the image my caretakers have of myself, I’m gonna try to be the other person and hide the real one. Take it to an extreme, I could even forget about my true self and embrace the mask that is the one that open doors for me. If someone or something threaten my mask, I’m gonna try to avoid losing what took me so many effort to built. Even at cost of my own self.
In which level I’m gonna fight, it will depend on how embraced and how much I believe my mask. I guess the majority of people have a chance.

I had been working as a teacher for 20 years. I still consider myself a teacher and my experience through practice and learning from experts taught me something I keep repeating over and over again. We have been having a misconception about the role of our kids. I’m talking in a general sense now but I know many parents claim the same as me. Kids won’t ever be an extension of ourselves.
They don’t come here to complete a “mission” we couldn’t fulfil or display the characteristics we have in mind. They are gonna be unique and this is how it has to be. They will be always absolutely perfect in their imperfections. They are gonna be them.

[TishaBuv]

Why is the narcissistic person unaware they keep doing the same toxic thing? Because they don’t want to change. They truly aren’t aware they are toxic. If you tell them they are, they get more angry and hostile.

As for the identity of children steered to meet parents’ approval, I think the child always does have their own personality, likes and desires, but they do what the parent wants to gain approval. Then sometimes eventually they rebel and do what they want that meets with the parents disapproval, they are disowned and slandered sometimes, and sometimes don’t care.

When the family sees the parent who treats others like this, they discount the slander because sometimes the same has been done to them by this person. They have no credibility. The family tries to avoid their wrath and copes with it if they don’t go estranged.

[Open Eyes]

This morning I was explaining something to someone that I felt might help that person see something in a different light.

Most people will hear this about horses in barn fires. It is said that often when rescuing a horse from a barn fire it's not just about getting them out to safety, but preventing that horse from running back into the burning barn. Many could never understand WHY any horse would choose to actually run back into a burning barn. Well, there is a reason for that. Horses begin to learn that their stall is "safe" and all living things including human beings tend to go to where ever they can feel safe. Horses are put in barns to get them out of the weather, to keep them safe from storms, from too much heat and bugs and the horse begins to learn that it's safe in a barn in a stall and they also get fed there too, so that's also a place where they are nourished. Often they can see other horses in the barn too, so that tends to be another comfort as they are herd animals.

So when a fire happens and there is chaos, and a horse is frightened, they tend to actually run back into that barn they identify as a place they are safe.

Human beings actually do the same thing. And a human being can develop habits that they deem safe when in reality it's just familiar and not really safe.

This habit of constantly blaming others when things go badly develops as a coping mechanism, and a person begins to use this method to escape problems. It becomes a place to run to when someone doesn't want to see that once again they ran into that burning barn. And if one thinks about the barn fire, the horse doesn't think, instead the horse "acts" on fear and impulse IN THE MOMENT. And if someone tries to help that horse, that person can actually get hurt when that horse is acting IN THE MOMENT and is driven to run back into that burning barn. Often a handler will grab something and cover a horse's eyes and leads them away from the trauma and that burning barn.

Ironically, this is something a person develops ways to do in order to get another person to think they are safe, to rescue them, to give them power or some kind of refuge. It's called getting another person to follow BLINDLY.

This technique is VERY MARKETABLE. In fact, when I look at my email I often see SEVERAL emails from someone claiming to be a psychic and tarot card reader. They all choose things that a person may be drawn to, it's their BAITING. A person is given some information that many people are challenged by, and in that information they are told how the psychic can't sleep and keeps getting dreams or messages about them they are compelled to share these messages. It even seems like "wow this psychic sees my challenge, it must be real". And the person ends up clicking on it, only to be told if they allow the psychic to share more, they will avoid certain doom or will read something important they can greatly benefit from. So because the person is struggling in some way, they agree and PAY THE FEE. And they THINK this person who is a so called psychic can really see and understand them. They don't realize this psychic has figured out how to get them to think that. After all this is how this so called psychic makes money. It's no different then doing a search and putting in what you are looking for and getting a list of what you are looking for and who you can buy it from.

The problem with constantly blaming others, is a person develops their own "cognitive distortions". They begin to create their own reality and avoid instead of learning and growing. The problem that develops from this is that the person gets so they don't know how to trust anyone or even themselves. It becomes a disorder and the person never really develops an identity as this disorder becomes their identity.

[AzulOscuro]

@Open Eyes, I didn’t understand very well which consists BLINDLY mechanism in? Can you explain it a little bit more for me, please?

[Open Eyes]

I was trying to explain how a person can follow blindly by using the example of how to get a horse away from what they feel is safe but is not safe is by covering it's eyes so it blindly follows. This is where "following blindly" comes from.

When someone chooses to blame everyone else and plays the victim, it's their effort to convince others to follow them "blindly". The problem with this is that they also convince themselves THEY are the victim hense THEY too are blind. This is the burning barn they keep running into.

These individuals tend to act by IMPULSE and they don't look down the road at the consequences, they want what they want IN THE MOMENT. If relationships go badly because of this, it's always someone elses fault.

[divine1966]

Life of victimhood might be easier than life of responsibility. If it’s never your fault and everyone else did you wrong, then you don’t have to take care of anything and you can just mope around. So it’s not a good life to live if you ask me, but in a way it must be easier. If nothing is ever your fault, then you are never responsible for anything. And it’s a sure way to make others take care of you and feel bad for you.

There are people who have issues in all relationships: in family, work place, romantic and in all friendships, and mysteriously it’s never their fault. It’s not even statistically possible. But oh well that’s how they choose to live. Be a victim if that’s what you (hypothetical you) want