Trying to move forward

It’s understandable that you need to mourn. Yes therapy is expensive if your insurance doesn’t cover it. Yes it is hard. But it still doesn’t make it ok to do it with your kids. Do you have friends? Family members (not your children)? I am not sure why you cleaning out keepsakes right now? Do you find it helpful? Stuff like that might have to wait until things are more settled. You aren’t even divorcing yet as no one filed yet.

Your son and your other children have tried to tell you how they do not feel safe with your wife. When they are forced to be with her they feel unheard and powerless.

This in part is a betrayal trauma which is not the same as overall trauma. This takes away from a child’s sense of self esteem and self worth. Your wife taking psych meds AND drinking created behaviors that genuinely frightened your children.

Your wife lives her disease and lies to herself. Your wife has a severe attachment disorder and she is creating this in her own children.

No child should fear their parent.

For helpful and free listening, you might try calling or texting a listening service such as www.caringcontact.org.

@RDMercer you have been quiet, how are things going?

Just checking in.

Things are good the last few days.

I thinking it is blowing my wife's mind that she isn't in control.

I'm starting to hear things like "please" when she texts or emails me.

RD, people high on the scale of narcissism have a great need for control. They like to be the center of attention and don’t care if it’s at the expense to others. This is why addiction AUD has many narcissistic behaviors and also denials and deceptions to prevent revealing someone has a problem. Marriage counseling doesn’t work because these individuals do not want to lose any control.

Children become a problem in their teens mainly because this is when they test and develop their sense of self. A narcissistic parent needing the control can become bossy and unstable and resentful.

Things you shared about her so called friends encourage the “ I am the victim “ and just use men and don’t give them power. Your wife began to lie about things you did and exaggerate because these are tactics used to gain power. This kind of person is a bottomless pit and you can never fill their void.

It’s important you understand this and commit to maintaining strong boundaries.

The power of detachment...

Very good explanation on the narc thing, Open Eyes.

I've been researching covert narcissist, and even more specifically covert passive aggressive narcissists. It's mind boggling. They can go so far as to pretend to have brain damage just to stay in control. Hard for neurotypical people to even begin to wrap their heads around. Even worse if you're an empathic person.

When he senses that he loses his power and control-over, DH goes into what I call "good boy mode." He's suddenly trying so hard to be nice and cooperative, but it's probably just childish fear driving him to try and reel us back into a place where he feels he has more control. It's likely just an act, not a change of heart.

As Open Eyes indicated, they are master manipulators, and masters at playing the victim, so watch out. When she comes up against your detachment and strong boundaries, she may switch to the victim card, and even involve others. Don't expect her to stay in a rational place. Stay strong...

Just caught up, having been away from this thread for a while.

RDM, pleased you are making progress and children are more relaxed. It will take time and you will have moments of self-doubt. Very good to hear that your children are now benefitting from a more positive environment.

Not wishing to hijack this thread but comments made by Open Eyes, in particular, have explained so much about my mother's behaviour (without the alcohol). An acquaintance recently observed, without knowing my background, that we're often conditioned to believe certain things; it's only when we gain more life experience that we begin to question. He's right, my questioning of her attitude is uncomfortable for her, resulting in the need to control becoming stronger.

You have shared a lot about your situation. It’s hard to face the reality verses what you wanted in your relationship and your family. You have gotten overwhelmed in trying to address everyone’s needs. You have been repeatedly been told you were not good enough and you allowed yourself to believe the mess is your fault. This is exactly what individuals that have strong levels of narcissism want because they get control.

You have been blamed for your children not wanting to be around their mother. That is all about her behavior that is controlling and unpredictable leading to your children genuinely not feeling safe.

Your children must learn to be strong and have boundaries. This is what they need so they don’t fall victim of abuse as adults. Narcissistic individuals avoid strong healthy people who have boundaries because their games don’t work. Instead they do better with those who have low self esteem and weak boundaries. These years are crucial for your children. It’s hard to face realities when you want the ideal of love you hoped for. Yet you simply cannot change other people. And if you don’t pay attention and set boundaries an unhealthy person can wipe out everything you worked very hard for. And they don’t even care and will expect you to enable them. You are not a bad person if you say no and set boundaries.

You need to arm your children before they go out into the world they need to speak up and that often starts in the home.

@RDMercer just checking in to see how things are going. I know you are trying very hard and facing some realities that are very hard to face.

I bring up your children because I know that it’s important to understand how crucial it is for a child to know and feel that a parent really loves them and will be there if needed. I saw a short video the other day of a little girl on a stage for some school thing and she was worried and stressed until she saw the parent (or parents) that she knew loved her and she lit up with so much joy and excitement. That is more important then a big house or a clean house or wealth.

When you share how much you want your wife to see and love you and she pushes you away etc, and you feel undeserving? That is how a child feels, they are left alone on the stage and no one “special” shows up.

A child can have two parents and yet FEEL like an orphan. A child can grow up in poverty yet are rich when they feel they are loved. No child should have to hide in their room and FEAR a parent.

A child can have two parents and feel like an orphan. YES. And I am trying so hard to undo that for our oldest right now. He feels like he hasn't mattered, because his mother wasn't good to him and I didn't do enough to bring that to light or draw a hard boundary.

"When she comes up against your detachment and strong boundaries, she may switch to the victim card, and even involve others. Don't expect her to stay in a rational place. Stay strong..."

YES!

I'm scared of this. At some point I think this situation is going to escalate. I had kept trying to reach out to her until at one point she said, "This is harassment." I stopped everything at that point. Not. A. Chance. Will I let her have the opportunity to make some kind of martyr of herself and make me look bad. The kids need me.

90% of what I do now I do through my lawyer.

This week she is about to find out that: our son has made a police statement but no charges YET and the younger ones joined him to verify things he witnessed and that he had been the target of with his mother, and she will find out that I am starting the process to move my license for my occupation to another region. That can take several months, so I am starting it. IF by some small chance she gets her way, we are prepared to move to a smaller community with more affordable housing several hours away. where I also have a lot of old friends and some family.

So... She has decisions to make. If she Pushes too hard, or shows up and creates drama, our oldest will take out a protection order and press charges. Then her chances of having the kids with her are gone, and her chances of getting a decent settlement will be gone. She can't support herself too long on her income, though. If she pushes us out of the family home, we move, and she has no ability to stop us. She'll be left in a town where she has NO long term connections and her kids will be hours away. There are no opportunities for her to work in this other town I am keeping as a back up plan.

So. Her degree of control is about to totally fall apart this week.

I know she is in pain, and as crazy as you all think I am for saying it, I love her. I talked with the kids last night, and they say they love their mom, but we have ALL carried a lot of pain for a long time.

My oldest said, It's her turn and Karma sucks.

And can I just say.... We're all happy. The weekends are like the holidays at Christmas. They have friends over, I cook a bunch of food, we play games, we go to get ice cream, and watch movies, every weekend. Even my big, big boy is happy to be around for all this. He brings his girlfriend over too.

It's remarkably easy.

RDM

It’s like an exorcism in that the bad presence is gone and the house can be warm and sunny again.

In your case, your wife made this choice.

Now YOUR healing with your children can begin. I am hoping that your wife can’t just show up and disturb that. I could see that when she did that both you and your children were triggered. That is a reaction that is direct to the nervous system and it’s not a choice.

When the counselor suggested the children not be forced to stay with their mother, that is saying a lot. Children need to know if they speak up about feeling unsafe they will be heard.

You are not being mean or abusive when you set boundaries and say no.

You are being very perceptive and smart. Self preservation...

Whatever you do, it will probably be the wrong thing. That's how she stays in control. As codependents, we want to make things right, get on the same page, and have a "team us." As narcs or whatever they are, they don't think they're winning unless someone else (you) is losing. The communication never works because the codependent doesn't understand that they care more about maintaining the power than you or the relationship.

They've probably been manipulating the world around them for so long that they are literal masters at it. Detachment, and not engaging, seems to be the only way to not lose.

Things sound relatively good for you and your kids right now. That's really nice to hear. I know exactly what you mean about the peace and lack of drama when they aren't around. It's almost weird how easy life is when the drama monster isn't around. Even when they aren't doing anything directly, they impart a mood on the house, and you don't want to attempt to do anything because you know they will do something to ruin it- covertly or otherwise. Hope you are able to really enjoy this time with your kids and make the most of it.

I drove my daughter to school today. She talked about how good it was to relax at home. She had a hard time describing it, but she described a state of anticipation and constant vigilance, waiting for the next bit of drama or an angry outburst. She also talked about going to anxiety counselling and feeling like she could never speak about the real issue, the primary issue, which was this atmosphere her mom created.

If someone knows more about AUD or covert narcissism, can you give me an idea what to expect?

I think I said there were a flurry of requests from my wife to enter counselling last week with the youngest. Youngest said no; there were lots of chances for years and you refused, you're not trying with anyone else in the family either because I'm your favorite or because you'll get child support for me and those are bad reasons.

So now we're all no-contact with mom.

In the last two months she hasn't asked at all about how the kids are or about how school is going or anything. This request for counselling feels self serving. Self serving for finances, or because of how this looks to the women around her, or because she's suddenly lonely. It's not requested for the kid's benefit.

I can see her getting angry and dramatic, or I can see her playing the victim. Playing the victim will be hard in court with her family speaking against her.

So, I'm wishing I had a crystal ball to see the future...

RDM

I am glad your daughter is opening up to you and feels safe to do so. I cannot say enough how important that is. Please give her lots of warm hugs and kisses as that will greatly contribute to her feeling safe.

When our children say someone makes them feel unsafe it’s very important to listen. It can be hard to hear but it’s important a child not be made to be around someone they don’t feel safe with, even if that is the other parent.

Your wife is not going to like losing control. She will accuse you of being in the wrong. Yet you and your children know that’s not true.

Yes your wife has AUD and she has become part of a very unhealthy group of women. They call this a harem. You ran into a woman who completely distanced because she could see how toxic it was.

It’s a wise choice to move forward through the lawyer only. No, stand by your daughter’s wishes to not engage in counseling with her mother. What your daughter fears is her mother using a counselor to triangulate to gain control. Your daughter doesn’t have the language but she is telling you in ways she can. Listen and lots of comfort.

My wife attended a number of counselling sessions with our daughter for our daughter's anxiety last year.

Our daughter said, Mom took it over, made it about her, and I wasn't able to talk about the real issue which was Mom.

So.... Yeah.

RDM

Yes, your wife was triangulating needing all the attention.

This is something that is worked on at AA meetings. Keeping their mouth shut and listening is part of the recovery.

Many of these individuals are very immature often acting in childish behavior patterns. Tons of drama and needing to be the center of attention, prone to rages and acting inappropriately.

Protecting your daughter from unwanted joint sessions with her mother is excellent.

It's a relief to hear that you have no intention of subjecting your child to counseling with her.

My first real post on this forum was about being asked to join DH in his counseling session. Even though he admitted to perpetrating abuse on me, the counselor shifted the blame to me for apparently not using stronger boundaries during this surprise attack. The whole time, DH sat there looking like a hamstrung, pathetic victim. I've since come to learn that it's very common for manipulators to be very successful manipulating counselors. It's frightening, because they don't care what it takes to win, they have no integrity or shame. The rule of thumb I've been told is that if they have no ability to show you genuine empathy and concern, don't go to counseling with them.

The last time I upset DH recently, he smiled through the moment, but then the following day broadsided me that we needed to go to marriage counseling. (The thing the day before had nothing to do with our marriage- it was something he was procrastinating on and I went ahead and got done before it was too late. ) I knew he was upset, and was anticipating that he was going to come at me with something soon. Suggesting counseling is an amazingly manipulative ploy. It's emotionally loaded, he's just pointed out that there's a serious problem, and has attempted to put the responsibility of fixing it on me. If I refuse to go to counseling, how can he fix it? There are some good articles online about why you should never consider relationship counseling with a narcissist. There's just so much potential for the true victim to be victimized even further, by not only the narcissist, but by an unknowing counselor as well.

Thank you for protecting your child this way. It was mind numbing to have gone through this as a middle aged person.

I recently read a book titled the covert passive aggressive narcissist, it's good if you're looking for something along that line, and explains how you can be married to someone like that for decades without understanding what it is you're living with. I found it a bit of a difficult read (emotionally), but also very eye-opening. There are some good YouTube channels that talk about covert narcissism as well, and you might be able to find something that's more specific to your concerns that way.

Please share the YT channels you found helpful.

Private message me if you prefer.

There's a strong history of my wife being wronged by everyone around her.

And the center of attention for being wronged and being ill. I've always treated the illnesses as valid.

No one experienced Covid in our home as strongly as she did. No one "felt" the Ukraine war as strongly as she did. Our daughter lost a classmate to sudden illness in middle school. My wife was overwhelmed by that, emotionally devastated, but never talked to our daughter who is a long time friend with the kid's sister. At one point my wife became emotionally overwhelmed because she saw a boy put his arm around our daughter's shoulders. How was she (wife) ever going to be able to manage the drama of our daughter liking boys and dating ? How would she bebe able to work or progress in her college course. Our daughter entering puberty was obviously going to mean she couldn't work.

That time I walked over to the kids and said, "Far enough apart to keep a balloon between you, or you go stand in the driveway until your dad picks you up big guy."

My wife was sitting on the floor crying about her future lost opportunities when I came back.

You have a good heart. But your wife is unstable and developed a problem self medicating with alcohol. There is disordered behavior being exhibited and your children are genuinely afraid of her. Your wife repeatedly expressed her desire to divorce you and expressed she doesn’t love you.

Your children have a right to feel safe. You are not being mean by having boundaries.

Dr Romani has a lot of YouTube talks you can explore.

Yep, you summed that up well. No matter what's going on, they can twist it to make it about them.

Around here, we don't tell him things unless and until it's necessary because he will make it about himself, even if it has nothing to do with him.

Here are a couple of people who come to mind:

Dr Ramani makes good videos

My favorite (that I still watch a lot) is Surviving Narcissism with Dr Les Carter. He's very down to earth and I find him soothing to listen to. He's been doing a bit on covert narcissism lately.

Angie Atkinson made good videos, sometimes a little blunt and direct, but entertaining too. I think she passed away unexpectedly recently, but she made some good ones.

Oh, Prof Sam Vaknin. He's a self aware narcissist. Some of his videos are excellent, but i find him grating after a short time.

If I think of any others, I'll post em.

Maybe some others here know of other good YT channels?

I like Dr Romani because she discusses different personality disorders not jus narcissists. She also discusses what not to do in sharing too much of yourself because it’s literally handing a narcissist the keys to your weaknesses that they can manipulate you with.

I have seen people with drinking problems go to the bar, alone even and consume alcohol and end up with one toxic person after another. They get drunk and high and NEVER admit they have a problem, it’s always the other persons fault. That’s what I mean about the disease. They keep repeating the same behavior and end up with yet another toxic drunk/addict. They get addicted to that drama lifestyle.

Streetcar named Desire. “ I don’t want reality, I want the Magic “.