Trying to move forward

I actually thank God for this board,

Thank you ArmorPlate.

I have read, and re-read what you posted. Thank you.

The "sneaking" occurred when oldest came home one night and said:

"Where's mom?"

"She's working late today."

"No she's not. I was going to get gas and I followed her car through town like an hour ago."

"Are you sure?"

"Yes. I know our car and our license plate."

"Oh well. No big deal. Maybe she had plans after work or got off early."

"Well, we were supposed to be doing stuff tonight and she's blowing us off again."

Wife arrives home at the expected time, 3 hours after son saw her.

"Hey. He thinks he saw you earlier. He's pretty ticked. He said he was going for gas and he followed your car down main street. He thinks you blew him off for plans tonight, but I told him you were working until close."

"Why was he following me? Did you put him up to that? Do I have to check now to make sure I'm not being followed?"

"He wasn't following you. He was going for gas and thinks he was behind your car. Please talk to him."

"No. No. You said following. I heard you. Why do you have him following me?"

"No one is following you. Please talk to the big kid."

The next day she was doing the "sneak" thing through the house. The kids saw her, asked what she was doing, and she stopped, denied it.

GAWWWWWD! It's all so F'd up!

Why are you so willing to think you are in the wrong?

A term I just recently learned is DARVO. It stands for deny, attack, reverse victim and offender. We both already know the game well, but hey, there's an acronym for it.

The story you posted seems like a good example of that. The sin wasn't that she seemed to be somewhere unusual that might deserve an explanation, it was that your son would follow her and question it. And she changed the narrative just like that....

I rarely try to have an in depth conversation with dh because it's going to go that way 95% of the time. Even if there's no reason for him to turn it into some kind of attack, it ends up there. I swear it's a compulsion with him and he can't even help himself at this point.

Hang in there, and don't doubt yourself. You've been through way too much to do that.

HO-LEE....

It's THAT common, to the point there is an acronym?

Wow.

Yes, the "following" story....

I didn't even care. My thinking was, maybe she got off early, maybe she had some errands to run, maybe our son was wrong and it wasn't our car.

So... I alerted her to it, and asked her to talk to him.

And it spun out like that.

She drove under the influence of alcohol with your kids. She needs to apologize, not you.

That reasonable interaction you had with her: that is an example of intermittent reinforcement. The offender gives a morsel of positivity and the victim starts to deeply question him/herself.

Open Eyes has a great question: Why are you so willing to take blame?

Here is a suggestion: when you feel that impulse to take blame, tell the situation here and see if this board agrees you are blameworthy.

It's ingrained.

It's a lot of years of not having peace or closeness unless I recognized I was wrong, apologized, and took action to make up for it.

When you say "ingrained" I would say "taught/learned".

What was learned can be unlearned.

Working on it.

You did this growing up too correct?

Many, if not most, abusive relationships escalate over time as well. (Frog in the pot) As the victim gains more tolerance, loses self esteem, and trauma bonds to the abuser, the look of the abuse changes.

Mean jokes and put downs turn into hurtful comments and insults, and eventually can become overt verbal and emotional abuse. Some abusers begin to covertly physically abuse their victim- "accidentally" knocking them down or slamming a door into them, and that can eventually give way to full blown overt physical abuse in time. They test to see just how far they can take the power trip.

Even with a family history of neglect and/or abuse, relationships don't generally start out looking like they are bad. For some people it's a process where you wake up one day and think "how the hell did I end up here?"

No, I wasn't mistreated or expected to apologize at home as a kid.

I'd like to clear something up there.

My parents are wonderful people. They both endured trauma as kids and wanted very much to give us an excellent life.

One parent came face to face with their childhood trauma when we were kids. That spiraled into periods of drinking.

It may have lasted weeks, then be good for months, then another several weeks, then maybe a year sober, or day by day, etc.

The alcoholic parent got help and entered AA in the first year. This went on for about 7 years with long stretches of sobriety too. They've been continuously sober for almost 30 years.

Being on a farm meant there was continuous work. Things weren't talked about, emotions weren't looked after, just keep moving.

As my parents dealt with their issues and trauma, we kids were left on the farm for a few days at a time with another family member... Who was a closet drinker.

This person sometimes drank while supposedly being responsible for us and the farm. We just.... Kept working. As a teen I often assumed responsibility for my drunk care taker and the house and farm.

My parents really grew up with no supervision. They actually learned to be parents on the job. They made big, big mistakes. They've apologized and owned them and talked openly with us once we were adults.

I went through a couple of bad years (in part because my wife tried to drive us apart), but I have a very good relationship with my family.

I just got off the phone with them in fact. They're genuine, good people.

Glad to learn that your parents took responsibility for their drinking and had discussions with you about it. A family farm can actually give the children a way to participate in challenging times where they learn powerful life lessons. By having the ability to keep things going while parents sorted through challenges gives a child a sense of empowerment and learning to be productive instead of being entitled. That has contributed to your ability to be resourceful and have good work ethic as an adult.

There is something to be said and valued when a family works together. It can make for a closer family connection that seems to have been lost in newer generations.

This is my life, with the exception that I didn't experience physical abuse.

I loved my wife so totally, and a little at a time things crept in.

I changed so many things incrementally because of her anxiety, then because of her progressing physical health issues, then because she had a spat with a friend or family member.

So help me, LAST NIGHT at our counselling session, I likened my life to a frog in a pot, and said it became a full rolling boil in the last 2 years.

There were things, requests, she made of me that were just too far. She'd berate me, insist, etc., then redirect to something else if she didn't get her way or a response from me.

A few years back she got into a foolish battle with my parents over religion. My parents were dolts, old farts set in their ways, and they were wrong. I said this to them and to her. I didn't support them.

Her retaliation was that she was going to change the kids names so they didn't share my parents' names anymore. The kids weren't babies. They ranged between 10 and 15 years old.

A narcissistic parent can be defined as someone who lives through, is possessive of, and/or engages in marginalizing competition with the offspring. Typically, the narcissistic parent perceives the independence of a child (including adult children) as a threat, and coerces the offspring to exist in the parent’s shadow, with unreasonable expectations. In a narcissistic parenting relationship, the child is rarely loved just for being herself or himself. - Psychology Today

That is also what is demanded in relationships. The sentiment is to consider yourself privileged to interact with them. You are not allowed to have your own opinion but instead MUST agree with THEIR perceptions.

Stay strong RD, there is nothing wrong with you. Don't fall for the manipulation. Don't look at and judge her only by that 1 interaction ... look at all of them you have had with her and it will be clearer.

Your memories are real and you don't need to apologize for being a good Husband and Father, which in my opinion after reading this thread over the last few months is undeniable.

You have inspired me to keep going through my situation, hang in there and trust in yourself.

@RDMercer how are things going?

Struggling the last few days.

My daughter is wishing she had a mom in her life. My daughter also didn't receive the anger that me and the oldest received.

So, I'm second guessing that, wondering if I should be encouraging a relationship there. I talked to my daughter and she said even if mom was around she still wouldn't have what she needed.

And thinking about good times, and mourning. I have always longed and wished for more of her.

I haven't reached out to her at all though.

This whole thing of recognizing it was all a facade is hard to come to terms with.

RDM

Your daughter made an important statement. Her mother is not a healthy role model for her. She desires a healthier role model that has an identity and can also respect how your daughter is trying to develop that for herself. She needs a STABLE older female presence, your wife is not capable of providing that.

I think it’s important that a child gets exposed to different things. One of the jobs I did was to drive to Manhattan and have one of my ponies be a part of a segment of a show with puppets about visiting a farm. I found myself suddenly seeing a very different world and how different people, all with creative talent become part of a collaboration that resulted in creating an episode that my pony was a part of. I got paid well and I had fun and got to see a lot.

I found myself thinking how I wish I had experienced that when I was young because I am a very creative person and would have enjoyed being part of that as a career. So I think at your daughters age exposure and exploring is important.

Acceptance sucks.

It's that stuff that you can't change no matter how much you want to, and you just have to own it. Whether or not it should be yours to own.

I went through a really hard period of thinking my whole life was a lie. And to some extent, that's probably true, as he probably never was entirely the person I thought he was. But then it occurred that that was a little bit all or nothing, black and white thinking- too much like a cluster b thinks. Broken down, it was a lot more complicated.

He wasn't actually a bad fit for me in our twenties, and not really in our thirties either. But as life changed, he didn't seem to keep up. As our world got bigger (moving, buying a house, fixing up said house, DD), I think I expanded as a person, and he either stayed the same or even contracted. Things change for one reason or another and it was only as good as the participation of all parties...

You loved her for a reason. It may not have been what you thought it was, even at the time, but that doesn't discredit the life you've lived either

It's so sad for your daughter. Every kid deserves to have that ideal family, though from the boards here, we know that's often not a thing for a lot of us.

Your concern and care for your family is a beautiful thing. It may not be what you wish for them, but they will get what they need because their dad cares enough to do what he can.

My daughter has spent a couple of hours a week one on one with the mom of a friend.

She said she is getting something from that, that she didn't get from her mom.

I questioned that one.

She said, it's not much time together but it's real. She said her mom was either not available, or she was excessive in her love and praise and just not genuine.

Her mom also talked big about being a strong, educated empowered woman. Daughter has realized that mom wasn't, that she exploited me and took a lot of money from our household.

To that end.... I've been trying to figure out how my wife spent so much money on gas and at dollar tree type places. And how she seemed to have means to buy friends gifts and lunch, because I never saw that money coming from our account.

Then someone said, "She was probably buying visa gift cards to hide her spending." I asked the kids if they ever noticed gift cards around. My oldest said his mom bought them every time they went out and had several in her purse at any time.

Meanwhile, we took out a second mortgage to "renovate the house" and just used it to cover living expenses while she was unable to work due to illness.

So.... Yeah.... That's a whole other level of entitlement.

If she truly is a covert narcissist, then this is like a horror movie "final form" of the villain. This is who she always was, and I've been exploited and manipulated for years.

If she isn't a covert narcissist, if this is the culmination of alcohol and depression, then I still want to "save" her. Because I've never quit on anyone, ever. And I'm a sucker.

What about you? Not quitting on your own needs?

It could very well be a combination of things that culminated to where you are now. Your concerns are completely understandable.

Narcissists aren't known for aging gracefully. Combine a predisposition toward those behaviors with life stress, age related concerns, health problems, and you'll potentially end up with a powder keg. It probably did get worse over time- approaching the "collapse."

My DH definitely had some unhealthy aspects to his personality from day one, but they were hardly deal breakers. He worsened over time, then developed some significant neurological problems - which the doctors say aren't a problem, because he's too young to have neurological problems. So who knows where the personality issues end and where the neurological problems begin. I completely understand your question about covert narcissist or damaged individual who needs help.

The only thing that can be done is to live a good, healthy life of your own, have decent boundaries, and decide how much you can and should give in the event that you choose to help them.

Well, it really is looking like I got played.

Like.... In every way.

There was a medication she took that gave her a lot of relief from her GI symptoms. I found years worth of those bottles, full.

She kept filling the prescription, and never took them.

Maybe being sick was a way to stay the center focus at home?

Finding out about the pre paid Visas, finding out she was very probably cheating while still living here.

It's been a hard few weeks.

I'm not going to "save" her. Not a chance. I still miss what I've been pursuing for so long though.

You can’t make another person into something they are not. No matter how much you give and allow etc., it won’t change them.

I think that your wife resented that she was dependent on you. She resented being dependent and accepted the message from her friends to take on resenting men and set on a path of being independent and “using” men. She was unhappy with herself and began to blame you for her feelings of being unfulfilled.

The fact that your wife was already finding ways to extort money from what you were bringing in is in fact a very narcissistic pattern. This is dishonest! Even if you made more money that would not change the resentment she has developed. It’s ALL men for her so she will be the same way no matter what man she has in her orbit.

Narcissistic individuals tend to be jealous and they don’t love, instead they use. This is a part of her character you can’t change. She has already discarded you. In fact, she would take everything from you and not care.

This isn’t a matter of you not being good enough.