I can't post in the men's forum, nor can men respond to my post on this topic in the women's forum. So, I brought it here where both sexes can answer.

My trigger was tripped big time by the number of men who, when asked what they like in a woman, put looks (especially weight) at the top of the list.

As someone with a lifelong weight problem I'd give anything not to have, I am sorely tempted to say kiss my generous....

Why do people think beauty only comes in a size 0?

[Defective]

I think the problem is they are asking what guys want in a woman before they have met. Most women probably want (insert hot celebrity guy types name here) as one of their wants but in the end thats not the be all end all. Ive seen some very attractive women seem ugly once you meet them and some i didnt give a second look to seem much more attractive. Plus a lot of them said intelligence as well which is one of those subjective things, just like weight. Id want an intelligent girlfriend but if she was einstein smart and everything was over my head id just end up feeling dumb

In the womens section and in the mens section some said they didnt like cry baby men which made me cringe too. Id give anything not to be the way i am as well. I heard somewhere "laugh and the world laughs with you:cry and the world laughs at you". It isnt always true but it was funny in its own way.

In the end i guess the only real answer is it doesnt matter what the majority of either sex wants in a partner, it only matters that there are some that look past what you feel insecure about be it crying or weight or whatever.

Did the men specifically say that looks had to mean size zero? Why can't look encompass whatever someone is attracted to, whether that be some skinny, someone curvy, someone small, someone big, someone with long hair, someone with short hair? You mentioned you had a fiancee-- I would imagine he finds you physically attractive. I find my husband physically attractive. I'm sure there are women out there who would agree with me, and women out there who wouldn't. When I say that looks are important to me, it doesn't mean the man has to look like a celebrity-- it means that I have a certain type of physical look that I am attracted to and I would like my man (husband) to fit that type-- as well as all the other emotional/intellectual/character/personality stuff.

[I_WMD]

WOW I relate in an unusual way ... OK It was like this >>> Pretty Girl ,,, eeerrrrmmmmmm Ugly inside ,,, then wanted to apologize to me and hang out ,,,, NOPE ... I already seen the dark side . Def You are coolio ..... Good reply . And said alot to help me see. WTF as >>>> Flying sees too.

[BrnEyedGrl]

I have to say I was glad someone else noticed that also. I was like..."Whaaaat?"
But I do understand that you have to find someone you are attracted to, and I guess that means getting to know someone from the outside in.

I don't wanna attack the men though cuz I admire their honesty too!

[Rhapsody]

<font color="purple"> ((((((( HUGS ))))))) ~ ~ ~ ~ ((((((( HUGS ))))))) </font>

Thanks for the support, all, I'd like to address this one in particular, line by line, and then I'll go back over what I missed with the rest of you.

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pinksoil said:
Did the men specifically say that looks had to mean size zero?

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They didn't name a size, but a number of them did specify "not overweight" or "weight/height proportional," which means the same thing. Weight was the number one determining factor in what was meant by good looks. It isn't just the men here at PC. I've read a lot of personal ads that have the same attitude. I once read one that went on and on about how lonely he is, and how he couldn't find the right woman for him, then he had the gall to close it with "Please, no fatties." (Dude, no wonder you're so lonely, with a shallow attitude like that.)

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pinksoil said:Why can't look encompass whatever someone is attracted to, whether that be some skinny, someone curvy, someone small, someone big, someone with long hair, someone with short hair?

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I wish it did. I had this discussion with my mother; how Hollywood has brainwashed us into thinking that only one body type is attractive, and that if we had grown up all our lives with nothing but big women in the movies and on magazine covers, we might think differently-- and before I could even finish saying that, she cut me off. "NO!" she practically screamed. "Fat is NOT attractive!" (Nice thing to say to your overweight daughter.) She can go on all she wants about how she only nags me about my weight because she's concerned for my health. She let the truth slip once--she's ashamed to be seen with me. She's afraid society will judge *her* and say it's her fault she raised such a fat daughter.

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pinksoil said:You mentioned you had a fiancee-- I would imagine he finds you physically attractive.

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He says he does, but he is in a very small minority.

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pinksoil said:I find my husband physically attractive. I'm sure there are women out there who would agree with me, and women out there who wouldn't.

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I do greet Mike in the morning with "Hi, handsome," but mind you he's no Brad Pitt. I'd class him as a John Goodman, just like I'm a Roseanne rather than an Angelina Jolie. But then, I'd choose John Goodman over Brad Pitt anyway. It's the not-so-beautiful people who treat their partners better. People who look like all that, well, they *know* it, and expect to be treated better because of it.

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pinksoil said:When I say that looks are important to me, it doesn't mean the man has to look like a celebrity-- it means that I have a certain type of physical look that I am attracted to and I would like my man (husband) to fit that type-- as well as all the other emotional/intellectual/character/personality stuff.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

OK, so we can agree on that much, that he doesn't have to look like a Greek statue, but what bothers me is the priority list. What's more important, a handsome hunk who treats me like the scum of the earth, or a man who is kind-hearted, thoughtful, considerate, and loving, but looks like something my cat coughed up on the rug?

Defective-- Being willing to show any and all emotion, whether it's "manly" or not, is a mark of bravery in my opinion. I think it takes a stronger man to cry when he feels the need, than to be afraid some shallow-minded person is going to call him a baby.

<font color="red">Real men cry. Wimps are afraid to.</font>

[magasanguis]

Looks are very important to some people, and it's understandable. An appearance gives people a quick snapshot of how another person functions. Naturally it's uncommon for a man to approach a woman if she looks haggard or unhealthy.

It's important to keep in mind that it's very hard to separate a person's appearance from their demeanor. For instance, I'm rather short, but many people don't notice this until I stand inches away from them, because I always walk tall. Posture is a way that confidence and appearance entwine. A boost to one equals a boost to the other.

Some of these preconceived notions are justified. Others are not. It's natural to see underconfidence and connect it to something like being overweight, but not vice-versa.

Does that make sense?

...And of course there's no reason for anyone to denounce any traits of sensitivity.

[Lenny]

Great thread...

Thankyou all..I had learned much.

Some of the most beautifull plants and animals on our planet are the most dealy.. Some of the most mundane have the greatest value...

The wonderfull concept of balance is what most attracks me...a bit of all that life allows..

Like the Rose who has moments of splendor but spends most of it's life thorn ridden, waiting with hope and purpose..gifts are many a splendid thing...

IMHO.

Lenny

There might be a miscommunication here.

I am not talking about the kind of judging by looks where the fact that a person is scruffy and unkempt indicates something negative about their character. I, for one, am altogether turned off by rotting teeth. It means a total lack of care, and refusal to do something that *can* be done. Plus, bad oral hygiene would be unpleasant to kiss.

I am talking about the kind of judging by looks where it is something that a person cannot help. Freckles, big feet, a crooked nose, baldness, or whatever. A woman on a dating program was asked what she wanted in a man, and the first thing she said was, "Oh, he's got to have a cute butt...." That kind of thinking just offends me. Anybody's character is far more important than their butt, or anything else physical.

And here is my sticky point. You who are praising the importance of physical appearance, do you mean you would absolutely refuse to date someone who doesn't look like your ideal? What type of physical appearance do you mean, the grooming or the genetic? And, if you had a choice between a good looking mean person, or a homely sweetheart, which would you choose?

[magasanguis]

I assume I could be classified as someone who praises the importance of physical appearance...

I would never refuse to date someone who wasn't my ideal hunk. Certainly not. (Given, I don't date, but bear with me.) In fact, I admit I prefer an expressive pair of dark eyes over light eyes. But preferences like these are secondary to first impressions: body language and what they're saying. It may take a few moments before I even realize that the funny, outgoing guy I'm talking to is physically attractive.

I don't understand why some people place appearance over personality traits, and the "cute butt" girl you mentioned is a perfect example. I can't give you much insight into these kinds of people, but I've come up with a theory.

I always assume this type of shallowness, placing appearance over personality, really isn't ORDERING the two, per say. Rather, it could be swapping one out for the other. Shallow people may equate these traits in their mind.

Overcoming shallowness is a psychological matter that involves overcoming very concrete connotations and associations with certain physical traits.

Again, does that make sense? (I should really have that as my signature. )

[Perna]

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LovebirdsFlying said:
A woman on a dating program was asked what she wanted in a man, and the first thing she said was, "Oh, he's got to have a cute butt...." That kind of thinking

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> There's no thinking happening here, just genetics and attraction. I'm not attracted to my obesity (or anyone else's) so don't expect anyone else to be either. My husband prefers blonde hair (mine is brunette) and once told me he doesn't like jeans. I have no problem with people having personal preferences. It doesn't have a lot to do with actual, real people though and how we treat them. I don't know how you check a guy's teeth and get his dental history though before you kiss him. . . (my mother had teeth high on her list too :-)

I don't know what's wrong with picking out a particular charateristic and saying, "Oh this person has to have this...." It doesn't mean that once you meet the person, if he/she doesn't posess that characteristic that you'd necessarily chuck the person out of the realm of your possibilities.

For example, when it comes to physical attractiveness of a man, hair is an important thing to me. I am a big fan of James Dean and Elvis and I just love that 50's-ish hair that they had going on. My husband has that kind of hair. That was a plus for me. Grant it, before I met my husband I had dated two completely bald guys because we connected intellectually and they were cool to hang out with.

I would ditch someone because their physical looks didn't exactly match my criteria, but if we are having a conversation about physical attractiveness, then I would say it is very important to me. If I am going to pick someone as a mate than means I am going to be sexual with them-- therefore, I want to be attracted to that person physically.

In the past I have dated people have I have been very physically attracted to, but found no other connections, and thus ended the relationships. Attraction is important to me but I would never stay in a relationship with an %#@&#! just because he's hot.

Quick answer about the teeth: Of course I don't give him a dental exam, but when the teeth are badly stained, broken off, and/or rotting out of his mouth, **and it's immediately visible,** I don't like what it says about him. Or her, for that matter.

I'd say the same applies to limp, greasy hair, half-shaved whiskers or a scraggly beard, dirty clothes, and anything that makes the statement, "I don't take care of daily necessities." An abundance of piercings and a punk hairdo tells me that the person would probably not be compatible with my lifestyle. I tend not to like tattoos because I associate them with the kind of hypermacho man that turns me completely off. Oh, and dull, bloodshot eyes-- that tells me straight away that this person has substance abuse issues, in which case I would immediately run in the opposite direction.

It's one thing when it is something a person can change, or something they choose to do. Not being able to help it is another, and using something someone can't help as a reason to accept or reject, is what I find unfair.

[youOme]

I'm so easily entertained and lovin' this.

Hey Lovebirds, I got generously proportional back end myself, I hear ya. But again...I will defend them because "weight" doesn't neccesarily mean size "0". Some men like there women cushy and warm, some like them no bigger then themselves, and some like them skinny....the word "weight" doesn't mean anything. You're taking it entirely to personal here. Try to persieve the word as it is written instead of coming up with your own definition...this is where your taking it the wrong way. These men, here at PC, are not intentionally trying to hurt YOU or any other ladies.

The fact that they say "thin" doesn't bust my big bubble butt *shrugs* don't matter to me.

If you got your man, who likes you as you are...who cares about what the PC men want...just hope they get what they are looking for and be on with it.

[salukigirl]

how come nobody has brought up the fact that its a bunch of guys sitting around a poker table? have we all forgotten about the "yeah i banged her" when really she shut him down thing? maybe theyre all just playing around like guys do around each other. theyre forced to show this false masculinity around other men. so maybe what they say isnt necessarily what they mean. maybe if they say what theyre really attracted to or that - god forbid they find their wives attractive! - they will be shunned. i dont know if thats the case but i do know that when you put a lot of guys in a room alone together fish stories arise like dandelions.

[youOme]

I don't know about all that, I highly doubt there fishing around for masculine praise here...nobody even knows who you really are here...ya know.

In other circumstances....yeah, they tend to do that stuff, like have a bushel of sexually transmitted diseases is cool. Heh

[nothemama8]

as I said before, " It is possible it is their WISH list", come on realistically we have ALL looked, don't forget there are some folks who prefer "butt ugly" instead of "Gollywood looks"should we condemn them for that?
"live and let live", I myself LOVE all types of homo sapiens

[youOme]

^^^amen!!^^^

[nothemama8]

IMHO, the men's forum was started so "men" had a place to talk to other "men", why do some of us feel we have a right to judge them, we need to be "supportive" here

[youOme]

For real...I don't even look in there 95% of the time, unless the title is very attention appealing...then I can't help myself. Otherwise, men....who cares, let them have their peace.

[coldwinter]

Men are visual. Looks do matter but it is subjective. I am sure you don't like ugly men but what is ugly to you might be handsome/beatiful to me. At the end of the day, we all want someone who can listen and understand us. We all know that physical beauty fades and if there is nothing underneath then it would never last.

[LMo]

I'm kinda giving up on this issue. Lovebirds, you seem like a very intelligent woman but you're clearly triggered and stuck in your position. I'd really like to see you give everyone, men and women, more benefit of the doubt. I feel that you've taken comments out of context and are focusing on what you already believe to be true rather than the overall picture of what the average person looks for in a partner.

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It's the not-so-beautiful people who treat their partners better. People who look like all that, well, they *know* it, and expect to be treated better because of it.

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Now I think it's YOU who is judging people based upon their looks....

I'm sad that you remain so locked into this negative type of thinking, despite receiving very little feedback that your perception is 100% true. Elements of it are true, yes, but not nearly to the proportions you believe. But, it's also apparent that you're looking for agreement rather than a new outlook, so I'm going to back out of these kinds of posts from this point forward. Good luck with everything

You're exactly right. I am looking for agreement, not a "new outlook," because I'm right and I know it. Beautiful people treat not-beautiful people like they don't matter, I've experienced that for 43 years.

I am receiving feedback that my perception is true, by the people who will admit it.