Dr. Clay, Let's start working on developing good BOUNDARIES!

Perna, Suzy5654, et al:

Sorry, folks, I have been preoccupied with a health problem, but now I have put it away for a month or two. I have tried to establish a wall to keep the health concerns out of my mind--is that a boundry?

Several people here have expressed an interest in establishing good boundries...Perna defends herself against negative comments (she speculated that a mean step-mother was the original cause of defensiveness) but maybe as an adult, she is still building too many walls...maybe? She feels she has to ask people too often how they are feeling in order to know where they are coming from (and to defend herself against negative comments?.) I wonder if asking questions is a problem. Don't you have to ask how they are feeling to know what is happening?.

Suzy5654 said she is labled as passive by her doctor and that is, in part, she thinks, of concealing anger. Exposing herself to others is scary and may make her uncomfortable when interacting with her husband's co-workers. These feelings of not wanting people to get inside of us (or wanting people to get in) are part of our boundries issues, I'd guess.

Can we come up with some suggestions about dealing with these problems? I'll try to do better about staying with all the posts coming in.

drclay

I forget or don't realize when I'm supposed to ask people what they're thinking; I'm usually so busy thinking what I'm thinking and worrying about my own next step I forget the other person is "there." I think all conversation with another person is questions and questions mean they're (evil stepmother :-) trying to find where I'm weak/wrong and "get" me. It sure is complicated talking to other people; probably why I prefer online/writing. But it gets lonely if you don't let people "in" or go "out" of your own head. I think "good" boundaries don't just mean keeping people from taking advantage of you, but also being able to let people in so you can get to know them and they, you.

Perna:

In a recent post you said "I forget or don't realize when I'm supposed to ask people what they're thinking." I want to underscore the importance of asking (indirectly) what people are thinking and feeling.

A great psychotherapist, Carl Rogers, developed Non-directive or Client-Centered Therapy which is based on the notion that you can help another person by simply finding out all about what is going on within their thoughts and feelings. Many therapist, maybe 80%, use his method, consisting mostly of tolerantly probing a person's feelings, not by asking questions all the time but by trying to understand by way of empathy responses...and letting the client respond to your "understanding" comments in such a way that you get to know them in depth. Often when the therapist and the patient know so much about the background, the thoughts, and the causes of the feelings, then it is clear to both what is happening and what new actions or thoughts might by helpful. The therapist, in that situation, doesn't need to tell the patient what to do, the patient has discovered his/her own treatment.

This is an important idea...if everyone in the world, especially our leaders were more empathic (and less intent on directing the world), there would be many, many more good relationships...and more self-acceptance. Please ask questions if this is unclear (or see Listening and Empathy Responding in Chapter 13).

Perna, you and _Sky can help spread this idea around. It contains about half of what I think I "know."

drclay

Good points.

I know for me, it is also very good to question what I'M thinking, and how the interaction is affecting me, or should affect me.

This helps me to not become involved in someone else's "drama." It helps me to realize that yes, that might be an issue for the other person, and yes, I do care BUT it really has no value for me in my life and doesn't really affect me and my goals and my safety.

Asking and telling is very good. I know when I learned to tell someone, "What you are doing is making me very angry" helped me considerably to let them know where I was "at" and often prevented my own meltdown.

TC!

That's a good point too, Sky, being clear on what's "ours" and what's "theirs." I sometimes know by a feeling of "relief" that I don't have to be anxious about something, feeling I have to solve it. Sometimes if I'm feelng bad I ask myself how else I'd like to feel in "this" situation and just realizing I'm feeling appropriately helps me. I have laughed at a funeral before and it's not fun/funny! :-) Knowing exactly where I am in place and time in a situation can be very comforting, stabilizing or centering.

It's harder for me though to get out of my own head and consider the other "side," the other person in a conversation. I got so I could do it pretty good in therapy but it was just my therapist and me in a "quiet" room together, going slowly and "repeating" when necessary; not a situation you get in day-to-day life very often :-)

<font color="green">One way I learned to step back and take another view resulted from my volunteer days at nursing homes, and psychiatric wards. These people were not my relatives, I could walk away. I was there to help them feel better, and if that involved NOT feeling like family or not acting like family, I did that easily.

Now, my mother is 87. If I get too close to the situation I begin to feel all the frustration -and love- and need to do everything perfectly 'right.' But, if I step back and view her as though she was a person in a nursing home needing someone to talk with, do little things for, I am a much better helper. I can always step into the loving daughter realm, but distancing myself sometimes helps me see what is only humanly possible.

I was fortunate because my stepmother became senile and would forget that we'd fought over something and when she brought it up again a few minutes later I could change my response knowing there was a hot button where my old response was. It was very valuable practice with seeing various scenarios but for real. :-)

I sometimes enjoyed going to visit my stepmother in her assisted living center in the beginning, when she could still be taken out for rides in the car, etc.; there would be a lot of other older women in the hallways (all shorter than I am which I think helped) and I learned to greet them and sometimes gently pat them on the shoulder as I walked by, etc. and it helped me see my stepmother as one of them, as you describe, not quite so "personally."

Good topic. I think I am only just begining to see that when growing up, there weren't no boundaries, only strict rules. But personal boundaries? Nope didn't know about them. I see now that my mothers inner world was leaking out off her and it was my job to fix it for her. So my inner world got neglected. Infact I had no idea it even existed as my mothers enveloped the whole family.

Only yesterday I caught myself trying to "fix" everybody. Making sure their inner worlds were ok, forgetting that this isn't my job. I feel guilty that its my inner world that really comes first for me. I feel as if I am letting everyone down if I take care off myself. But I also understand a bit more now, that when and if I take care of my inner world I am a much better person to be with.

I can feel the anger and resentment in me as I neglect myself and put others first and that is my first step in understanding better now how "it" works.

I still am confused though as to how much I should allow my children to deal with their inner world and how much I should take care off me over them. I haven't quite worked that one out yet. I do find myself stopping and thinking now before I am jump into rescue them (ages twins, 13 and son 18)

It hurts to do the right thing at times but then again, it hurts to do the wrong thing too :-(

And, Mouse, I find it's so easy to get my thoughts about their inner mixed up with their actual inner! I like being rescued but (a) may not need to be (b) they may not need to be (c) they may not want to be (d) they may want to be but may not need to be, etc.

I was extremely fortunate in my choice of husband :-) I am able to explain things to him better (he's an excellent listener) and also try things out. I was raised to give the "man" the larger piece of meat (or anything else) at dinner, for example, and sometimes it makes me anxious because I'll want the larger for myself or they're only very slightly different but I can tell and I take the larger one and feel like if I'm found out I'll get in "trouble," stuff like that. So I told this whole thing to my husband and we both laughed at the ridiculousness of the situation/feelings and I deliberately took the larger piece for myself with his knowledge, encouragement and us talking about it at the time and still felt anxious! But the whole scenario was very helpful in getting me to understand it's not "me." And, not everything I think is a problem is a problem at all. Just because we've been "trained"/taught one way doesn't mean that is the "right" or only way.

My husband and I had the conversation about replacing the toilet paper when it runs out (when you use the last piece) versus next time you come into the bathroom if the roll is empty. I was taught to "be nice to the next guy" and replace it right then, when it first becomes empty, but my husband never does (or with paper towels or anything else). He finally took me through the "mathematics" of our 2-person household and the probability of it running out on you versus you being the "next" person to need it. They're the same! There's no point in being nice to the "next" person because there's an equal chance that you'll be next and/or, there's no contest or "test" of any sort, it's just preference, not a rule or good behavior or anything like that. Sure you want to make sure there's a roll of toilet paper there if you're having guests over but otherwise you can do what anyone likes. If you like replacing it a certain time you do but that doesn't make other people who do it/think differently "wrong" or morally bad! It's the little things like that that hang me up and that I overlook. I think someone is "abusing" me or stepping over my boundaries, etc. and it's just my warped way of looking at things, the way my anxious/controlling stepmother taught me, the only way I "know" so I think the only way there "is."