Dr. Clay, Let's start working on developing good BOUNDARIES!

I think boundaries are hard. Hard to establish, identify, respect; change them with different people; let them be fluid; all that stuff. Boundaries are hard!

Where and how to start? Anybody else in?

Sure! Good idea. Remembering the 5 parts of self help, okiedokie, can you put your particular words to this? (behavior, emotions, skills, attitudes-values, and unconscious factors.)

I think each person's own reactions and results will make the statements different.

good request, okiedokie! good boundaries are most important for our's, and other's, mental health!

Alright Sky, I'll give it a whirl...First I should say that this is what should show up by my name,"posting in stupid mode" he he...

Also, as I was never taught good boundaries, I got through life depending on using OTHER people's boundaries. As you can imagine, this got me in trouble quite a bit of the time!

5 Parts:
1. People walk all over me/I overcommit
2. I feel like I'm being abused by others' expectations and that I'm a failure because I can't always deliver. Also a little pissed off!
3.
4. I value pleasing others and meeting expectations. I wish there were people in my life who are as dependable as I am.
5. As a child of two alcoholics I was expected to take care of everything and everyone way before my time.

#3 -- I totally can't remember whether I'm supposed to list the skills I want to have or don't have?!

How's that?

okiedokie:

You gave some really good examples of boundry problems.

I wouldn't have necessarily started with describing the 5 parts of a problem, although it seemed to be productive. I would have started with the first thing you mentioned: People walk all over me...and then I would have looked at the five parts, e.g. (1) behavior=they walk all over me and I try real hard to do more than they expect me to do. (2) I feel pissed off because they expect too much of me...and I feel guilty because I feel like a failure. (3) It is obvious that I need to learn to be assertive and make sure their expectations are in line with what I am willing and able to do. (4) I want to help others. I know I am reliable and dependable but I have to set limits on what they expect me to do. As much as possible the relationship should involve a fair exchange--give and take. (5) Being a little helper as a child left me with a child-like attitude that I should take care of other people's needs, just as if I was their dutiful child.

Then the task is to learn how to establish these expectations with friends, relatives, supervisors, etc.

Sorry this is rushed but maybe we can get into the details of how to change many aspects of a relationship.

Let's go on with this. Then we can deal with other boundry problems.

drclay

<font color="gray"> Sky whispers, "Do they still say pissed off in Mo?"

<font color="blue"> I'd like to see the boundary issue worked out from my own perspective...that of not allowing what others think and project into my own thinking. I know better. I need to block that stuff out... keep a boundary on that so I don't become affected by their ignorance or mal-intent

Hi DrClay,
Please clarify "As much as possible the relationship should involve a fair exchange--give and take."

I have no idea in what world such a relationship exists.
Thanks,
Okie

I think the idea might be reciprocity.

It can be hard to identify when one should put ones needs aside for the needs of another... And when one should pursue ones own needs at the expense of anothers... That is a very black and white characterisation, though. Usually some sort of comprimise can be reached, but sometimes not.

Sometimes people think that they need to put aside their own needs repeatedly for others because they need to do this in order to *earn* love or respect or because they think that that is what they should do.

But then that can lead to depression or anger or frustration or resentment etc.

Okiedokie, _Sky, alexandra, and others

I apologize for not responding better to this thread. It is a good thread but I'm still having trouble finding threads...I'm working on it with _Sky's and other's help.

Okiedokie did a good job of talking about the lack of boundaries and the hurt they cause, in terms of the 5 parts of a problem. But she questions if fair give and take happens. _Sky wants to work on her perspective of boundaries so she can protect herself...and we are waiting for her to describe the hurtful situations. alexandra observes that reciposity may be the key. I agree.

We have a core of interested helpful people. I'm ready and I think I can find my way back to this thread. If not look for me swimming far out at sea.

drclay

DrClay, let us know if we need to come find you!

I think "fair" is a word kinda like "normal." Everyone's definition is going to be different. Additionally, within a relationship, I would guess that it is also fluid, which makes it even more difficult, much like a boundary. People are going to have to adjust their expectations based on the needs of the individual at the time. Also, there are built-in expectations of each role in a relationship, i.e. parent-child, boss-worker, needy friend - not so needy friend, etc. How does fair come into the equation?!

Can ya tell I need to work on this? I think also that more sensitive individuals may tend to get the brunt of the "fair" stick.

DrClay, your guidance is appreciated. I would appreciate hearing from others as well.
Thanks,
Okie

What I have realized recently is that any negative action by the "powers that be" with the insurance company, lawyers, adjusters and claim managers who's bottom line is only money, totally triggers me into depression. Though I try very hard to think clearly (they aren't doctors, yes, their bottom line is only money, this isn't personal) my feelings take the route of "Why bother? Why keep trying? They will never change. I can't get what I need. How long would I continue to have to wait for what I need? I'm tired of trying. I can't afford what I need. I shouldn't be spending my energy on trying to help others when I need to try and do for myself instead. I am only allowed to live day by day doing for myself, and not have a social life or other expectations. I am not allowed to have enough pain meds to take care of all my pain, but only enough to make it bearable. How long do I have to keep trying before someone says I've tried enough?"

I need to ignore the opposition and try to live anyway. My attorney (as bad as she is) told me that the opposition wants me to suicide so they won't have to pay on the claim any more. And I'm supposed to trust them for my care.

Sky-

(((HUGS))) Sorry things are so hard right now. Let me know if you need someone to talk to. We appreciate everythiing you do for us.

devox

Sky, what an indictment of our medical system your attorney's remark is! As for boundaries, I understand what you mean. So often, things that are happening outside of me greatly impact how I feel about me. Recently, someone quoted something from The Four Agreements to me -- that anything that anyone says or does is always about them, and never about me. I try to hang onto to that idea.

This is an interesting discussion, and I am glad that Dr. Clay is here.

my boundary problem is with my oldest daughter. it seems to me that overnight she decided that she no longer has to respect the boundaries that we've always had. i feel like a steamroller hits me when i am with her. it is verbal and i have a hard time knowing how to handle language that she knows that i don't want to be subjected to. she demands that i do everything on her schedule and the way she wants it done. i feel as if i no longer exist to her has a person/mother figure.

i now find myself avoiding her, which means i am avoiding my granddaughter and SIL. i need help with this.

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</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
<font color="blue"> I'd like to see the boundary issue worked out from my own perspective...that of not allowing what others think and project into my own thinking. I know better. I need to block that stuff out... keep a boundary on that so I don't become affected by their ignorance or mal-intent

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Sky, I've learned to work on my boundary problems from the inside out; I don't want to keep things out, that's impossible and takes a lot of energy to try. I put "magic" into my boundaries themselves so my own knowledge and perceptions of myself take care of any problems.

One of the hardest things for me to learn has been (still learning!) to remember that I don't know what others think/feel or what their motives are, etc. unless I ask/talk to them. My "thinking" and perceptions is what gets in my way, not the other person and what they're doing or saying. Because I perceive the other person as ignorant or mal-intending doesn't make them so and even if they are, it doesn't make it "personal" to me. Other people lashing out at me in their pain need not hurt me if the lashing out doesn't belong to me. Of course, I do like it sounds like you do and stick my shield up anyway to block anything that appears to be coming my way before it gets to me instead of looking at it well enough to see where it belongs Of course, then I think I'm in the middle of a "battle" when I might not be or when it might have been avoided or resolved (if its my battle). I strike back and cause chaos and confusion of my own

My T has said I'm very passive. Not sure how that translates into thoughts or actions. I don't often express my feelings (esp. anger--which for some reason I have a lot of).

My husband would say I have too rigid of boundaries. I have trouble being around people, don't want them to know me. I get very anxious about having to go to his work parties this time of year. I'm very closed off. Are those my boundaries?--Sizu

sounds like we all need some help on boundaries.........

Suzy, basically boundaries are how we know and express the difference between ourselves and someone else. Think about the boundary between Indiana and Illinois. No "wall" there or even a river like some states have between but the people in Indiana know they send their tax money to Indianapolis and those in Illinois, to Springfield and if the Illinois police showed up just over the boundary in Terre Haute and tried to arrest someone, what would the Indiana police do?

I built walls around myself to keep everyone from crossing at all, treating them all like they might be those Illinois state police showing up in my West Terre Haute neighborhood :-) They showed up too often in my childhood (my stepmother was an angry, abusive, yelling "drill sergeant" :-) so I got to expecting them all the time. Sounds like you try to get away from your Illinois police by moving clean over to Dayton and insisting you're from Ohio :-) You have to find the Indiana police part of you and use that to "enforce" your boundaries.

Hi all , I'm brand new at this. Frankly i don't know what I've found but I do feel it has potential for me. I'm a recent widow, senior citizen, ancient by some standards but I don't feel it in my brain though my body says so often. I've tried the grief site and frankly I can't handle it. I'm trying to get past that stage, I am basically a positive person who needs to feel some optimism in my life so I am determined to close the book on this horrible year and let 2007 show me the direction I should take. If I am still here then there must be a reason once I decide what that reason may be. I need to hear that life can be worth living after you lose a life partner of 51 years. I have the benefit of having lived this long and surely there must be something I can do to help those that need the help I can give probably in the area of tutoring. The more I communicate with people and this is the preferable way as my hearing is not the greatest. the more I can clarify my thinking and make some decisions as to what I can do that will benefit a few people.

welcome to PC. help is always appreciated........pat

Of course there is life after loss. Life changes. It always has, and we weather those changes. New perspectives help, imo. I look at things like, well, I did that for xx years, and now it is time to do something different.

TC!

Kepri:

Welcome to this Website. Sorry about your terrible loss. 51 years is a long time. But the important thing is that you are looking to build a new life and overcome the loss as best you can. That attitude should serve you well. And I wish you well.

I can identify with your situation somewhat since in the last month I have been confronted with the new growth of prostate cancer which I had thought radiation had killed. I won't elaborate on my illness (I actually feel fine) because I don't want to talk about topics that might upset you. Like you, I also have a hearing problem--it is really a handicap, isn't it? I spent my life listening carefully to the details of people's lives and now I have to keep asking questions to clarify what someone has just told me. Using emails and the computer help a lot in that way. Do you use hearing aids?

OK, you are interested in tutoring. Wonderful! What a worthwhile thing to do. Have you thought about where you might do tutoring? what kind of people you would like to help? What subjects interest you the most? what ages?

What else would you like to do? What work have you done? Do you have children and/or grandchildren? Are you into traveling? taking pictures? writing? traveling? community services?

Once the people here have some notion of your background and interests, perhap they can share their experiences with you. Please write us again soon.

drclay