[AAAAA]

On another thread someone mentioned that they did not think that rape was always a control issue. I thought that I agreed with that. I was raped when I was 16 by a boy that thought that no meant try harder. I never blamed him, I was just frustrated with a society that does not make boundaries clear.

Then I was reading that thread I realized that it's just a rationalization. I have three sons and a daughter, and I've made the rules VERY clear for them.

When my husband and I were dating I realized that I was starting my period and I said no. He stopped. He did not act upset he did not even request an explanation, when I started to give one he just said it's ok, when you're ready I'm ready.

Now his parents gave them very little guidance, but he knew enough that no means no.

So, what do you think is it always a control issue?

[sabby]

I can't find one reason in this world why rape would be anything but control.

Even if it is a teenage boy who is pushing the girl and making her "do it" is that not control??? He's thinking of no one but himself...right? He is controlling the situation to his wants.

Maybe I am blind, but I sincerely doubt it. Been there done that and there was nothing more than control over me and the situation.


sabby

[Rhapsody]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_sabby_ said:
Even if it is a teenage boy who is pushing the girl and making her "do it" is that not control??? He's thinking of no one but himself...right? He is controlling the situation to his wants.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Well, now - I can also see that as him being horny since he is a teenage boy ready to go at a movements notice, therefore, he is thinking with his little head - which leaves him being selfish not controlling.

While I do believe most of rapes are done out of controlling issue (one way or the other) I also believe after talking this over with my T, that some sexual abuse issues are done out of wanting nothing more than mere sexual pleasure with out the consideration or respect of the person you are forcibly taking it from.

I find myself agreeing with rhapsody I was married to a very selfish man he would think nothing of ignoring the NO, he certainly was not a controlling person in any area he was a very lazy selfish man. He would take what he thought was his by right, what right I have no idea but in his head self came first.......

So I think its down to the individual situation. Controlling with some and not with others.

[somebodysomeday]

if it is an adult with a child.....the child never holds the control...ever...
i don't know if that is the answer?
but i never said 'no'...
i was a child...and my mum taught me that you never say 'no' to your elders...
well it wouldnt have mattered if i had said 'no'...anyway..

[Rhapsody]

<font color="purple"> ((((((( HUGS ))))))) ~ ~ ~ ~ ((((((( HUGS ))))))) </font>

I am sorry - for I know of what you speak of all to well - may we (adult survivors) heal together here on PC.

<font color="purple"> ((((((( HUGS ))))))) ~ ~ ~ ~ ((((((( HUGS ))))))) </font>

[Perna]

I think I'm uncertain about how you are defining control.

I do not think one has to teach children that, hurting another person, hurts that person. All children know that when they get hit, pinched, have toys grabbed, etc. that hurts and they do not like it. Another person's expression of pain, such as in a rape or use of force, is not "confusing" to the person causing the pain! Maybe they "need" to cause that pain, but they know it causes pain.

I think rape is always a control thing, as in "power." I must cause you pain, overpower you, show that I am stronger than you are, either to myself, to you, to my father in jail who used to beat me as a child, whomever. The only way I can feel "good" is to make you feel (control) you, now.

i picked no cos the way i see it is that some make that conscious decision to do it
meaning to me they have control of the situation in their head they know what they want
its a massively difficult question cos it can be a yes to it in that ppl will want control over the other person or that they cant control their impulses...
there are lots of ways to interpret that question...

[AAAAA]

Thank you all for responding. I find it odd to be confused about this after so many years. On the one hand I never blamed the boy involved. I just thought that he was a selfish, arrogant ***.

But on the other hand, after reading that other thread, I concidered how I would react if it happened to my daughter or if it were one of my sons committing the crime.

I suddenly find it a complicated issue.

[jennie]

Rape is a violent crime about control over someone else.

[Rhapsody]

I believe people rape for one or more of these reasons: sexual frustration, revenge, a general disregard for the feelings of their victim and at times the need to control another person while they them self live in an out of control mind.

[I_WMD]

This is a real hard question in so far as the Psyche goes.

While in prison I met a few child molesters ,,, a serial Rapist ,,, and your run of the mill drunken taker.

Start with the drunken taker >> Commonality with them ,,, " She wanted me , ... she was just as drunk."<< . My question was usually , " Then why you locked up ? " ( in all these examples , you will find I hate these kind of peeps ,,They are so weak )

The serial rapist I met ( only one ),,,,was an oppotunist that created the enviro as to do his ***** . Usually while peep was passed out . And he thought child rape was different . Because you would never drug a child.

Child molesting dgfdoidhg;ofdshdzu pervs grrrrrrrrrrrr.....
They were easiest ( for me ) to spot. They rarely made eye contact and when they did ,, you could see a look of a child in there eyes. And always a explanation of "they looked old enough ,, or I was asleep and the kid did it ( LOL ) ,,,, I don't remember ,, " These were common whys?

All in all ,,, some signs are A thing called Grooming...>> It is when a older peep garnishes extra attention to a younger one and makes there self out to be so sad and desperate that they find a "soul mate" as to a underage peep. [ yea right ] LOL. They are patient but need constant attention from there prey ,,, in order to make the less mature less life experienced one seem irreplaceable .

I cannot say Which way I would vote as to the poll >>> except to say , these are weak peeps at who are as been said before just totally SELFISH ,,, and without the ability to have compassion to the degree of respect.

[Rapunzel]

It has to do with taking something at someone else's expense. The motivation might vary slightly, but control has to be really big. I hesitate any time anything says always, because somewhere there might be an exception, but I voted yes anyway.

There may be variations on control, from the power rush of taking something from anyone they choose, to testing how far they can get their SO or other to bend and give in. My husband has a mentality where he has said his "measure of being cared about" is how far someone will inconvenience themselves for his sake. If he knows I don't want to do something or give up something or give him something, then he wants just that, because he would feel cared about if I gave up something hard for me. But it backfires, because I resent it when I feel coerced or tricked or cheated. I'm suspicious of any gifts that he gives me, wondering what he wants or what it is going to cost me, or when he will expect me to give it up after I have become attached. When is he going to start complaining that I spend too much time on it when he wants me to spend more time on him. What does he want me to do or give up because he's a martyr and gave up everything he wanted to get something for me. It's really not worth it.

Those attitudes, maybe to a larger degree, are probably pretty close to the attitudes behind some rapists. I don't know if this is entirely relevant in this thread, but this thread brought up some very strong feelings for me. I can't give a complete explanation here, but it does. I'm not sure if I was ever raped, but sex often or usually feels like abuse to me, to one degree or another. And it's a fine line between sexual abuse and rape, probably with a lot of overlap. Especially to those of us with large parts of ourselves that never grew up, and still feel childlike.

[I_WMD]

>>>> Don't get me wrong Rap...... but,,,,,, Whoa!!!!

I am so totally blown away by your discription.

" Here Honey I bought ya a flower and now we do the funky Monkey dance "

Please tell me that guys are not that so ... simplistic and ????

It can be about sex not control, (I believe) so that when two people are in the act and the excitement has built to such an extent that when one person says no it becomes about wanting the sex, it may feel like control however it is really only about gratification of sexual need.

If an alchaholic breaks into a liquor store it isnt about the need to burgle its about the need for alchahol.

Having said all that my belief is that sexual preditors who go out with the express intent to rape often find that the element of control adds to the sexual act.

(sorry spelling is not good)

[AAAAA]

Wmd, I think you nailed it, they are weak people that are totally selfish. I guess the motives really don’t matter.

Good analogy Tishie! I never thought of it that way.

Not that it excuses the act of course. I just had it categorized in my brain for so long that I found it disturbing to suddenly be questioning it and not know how to file it again. Since it doesn’t have a place right now, it’s just floating around up there and I’d really like to put it back away.

(((((Rapunzel))))) OMG I cannot even image what that would be like. I am so sorry that you feel that way!

[Kelly3]

I have one thing to say on this matter;
Grrrrr. I understand murderers.

[I_WMD]

Kell I reckon we have to amp up our talks some ..........

[Peanuts]

I am sorry that you were raped - you say you don't blame the perp, I hope that you don't blame yourself. It is always the perp's blame - they are the wrong doers.

Rape is all about control - it is not love, it is not lust, it is not sex. It is a brutal act of control done against another person and it is always wrong.

Being horney does not give a boy, teen or man the right to push himself on another against their will. No means no. A real man would not force himself on another.

[AAAAA]

Possible trigger-----------------------------------------------

Peanuts,

Truth be told, I blame myself for being in the situation. You have to remember that this was 25 odd years ago. The term "date rape" had not been coined and proving rape in any situation was difficult. I truly hope that we've come a long way since then.
I worked in the summer at a resort and lived on the premise. There were several other girls living there at the time, I was the youngest at 15-16 years old.

I do not recall where the older girls were at the time, but I was at a party and had too much to drink. (One of the reasons that I do not drink to this day.) I passed out in our living room and awoke to this boy 17 kissing me etc and the owners son watching him. I remember telling them that it was time for them to leave. I remember them leaving and I remember locking the door.

The next morning, the owner's son told me that the boy said that he'd come back and slept with me and that he had been surprised that I had been a virgin.

I vaguely remember an image of him in my bed, but nothing else, I figured that was the working of my drunken mind. So I was absolutely positive that the boy in question was bragging and trying to save face. I called him a liar to his face.

A few weeks later, when I was back at home I discovered that he hadn't lied. I did some things at that time that I'm ashamed of and will not repeat. In any event, I was pregnant and all of my attempts to take care of it on my own did not work.

I still had contact with the resort owner's son, and told him of the situation. Looking back now, I realize the following is ridiculous, but at the time, I was 16, pregnant and scared. In the course of events it was decided if I told his parents and mine, we'd wind up getting married, and THAT was not going to happen.

I had an adult friend (friend of my parents) who's sister could not have kids. I told her of my situation and she was positive that her sister would adopt the baby, but I had to get my parents to agree before she would contact her sister. (Thank God, she had that foresight.)

So off I go to tell my parents that I was pregnant. I'm not good at lying and when my father asked who the father was the boy's real name started to come out of my mouth, I altered his last name. This turned out to be a HUGE mistake.

Turns out that the boys parents were from the area, and that my father knew them! So in his mind I was sleeping with complete strangers without knowing their name. When he asked what I planned on doing, I told him that I planned on giving the baby up for adoption to x's sister.

This was the second HUGE mistake. Hindsight being 20/20 I now understand his point of view. He had been abandoned by his mother and that is how he viewed adoption. The decision was made that I would have an abortion. I know now that I had a choice, it just didn't seem like I did at the time.

My relationship with my father was very strained for a long, long time.

Years later, he learned the reality of the situation by accident. My brother and I did not realize he was home (I was married and moved out of the house at this point). I was expressing my concern at my brother's drinking and he brought up my own skeleton, I decided to tell him the reality of the situation. My father overheard the entire conversation and came downstairs crying and said "I didn't know, I'm sorry."

So I don't blame him, I blame the situation. I've tried to educate my children. No means no, and if there is alcohol involved the answer is no whether she says it or not. I’ve gone out of my way to let my daughter know that if she chooses to drink, to make sure that she surrounds herself with people that she trusts implicitly!

I apologize for the length of my answer.

[Peanuts]

no appology necessary. You are very brave. I understand what you mean about the environment and norms of the time. Hindsight is always 20/20 - I'm glad your father was able to learn all that happened and understand. It sounds like you are doing your bit to change attitudes in that you are teaching your children to respect their bodies and to respect others. And to be careful around alcohol - young teens should really stay away from it. The longer a teen puts off drinking, hopefully, the less likely that something unfortunate will happen.

Even though the norms of that time did not recognize date rape or that an intoxicated teen is not able to consent .. it is still not your fault. You are innocent. That boy saw an opportunity and took it - he was wrong to do that.

I wish you peace

[Ocean13]

I agree with who said... Control Issue, what else could it be? Someone is forcing themselves onto another person. Forcing someone to do something they don't want to do. Ignoring the pleading to stop. If that's not 'controlling' another person than what is it?

[Rapunzel]

((((( AAAAA ))))))

Now I understand why you are asking this question. I am sorry that he did that to you. He did a bad thing and was wrong. It is sad that you didn't feel that you had choices or could tell what really happened. That, to me, bears up that it was largely about control. You didn't have control, because you were drunk and not fully conscious, and later because you were afraid of consequences and decisions that would be made for you. Nobody had taught you that you did have the right to control your life and make decisions for yourself, and the results of that were sad. I admire your strength for being able to use your experience to know what you needed to teach your children.

[AAAAA]

(((((everyone))))) It did feel really good to get it off my chest. Very few people know the whole story. As far as alcohol goes, I've tried really hard not to make it the forbidden fruit for my kids thereby making it more attractive.

I've pointed out to all of them that alcoholism runs on both sides of their family and that they need to think long and hard about taking that first drink as they may never be able to put it down.

Thanks for listening