I went to that thread, on the men's forum, and I for one am absolutely appalled by the number of men who are placing looks at the top of the list.

I just thank God I'm engaged to a man who is not so shallow as to judge me by what I look like.

Why is that appalling? Wouldn't you want to be physically attracted to someone that you were going to be with?

No, I think there are more important things in life than what someone looks like.

[RozG]

ermmm...sorry if anybody takes offense at my saying this but...it is the MENS forum we're talking about here and if we're offended by anything they discuss...we just shouldn't read it. we use this forum to vent our feelings, discuss our ideas...they have the right to do the same in THEIR forum imo.

Oh, they can say it all they want to, but I need a place to vent my frustration about a world that thinks if you don't look like Paris Hilton, you're worthless.

Judging someone by looks is for children on the playground. "Oooh, I don't want to be your friend. You have a mole on your nose." "Let's not play with her. She's wearing the wrong color shoes."

And it sickens me that there are adults who still think that way, and call it being sexually attracted. Believe me, I don't care if a man has crooked teeth or a big gut. I'd rather he be kind-hearted. If I've got a choice between someone who is drop-dead gorgeous and treats me like dirt, or someone who looks like something my cat chewed up, who treats me like gold, I'd go for the ugly dude every time.

It's not saying there are not more important things, but I just don't see what is offensive about a man placing looks on the top of a list of what he might like in a woman. I could see it being offensive if the topic was, "what do you look for if you are going to hire a woman" but the topic is "what do you like in a woman"-- I would assume that means if you were to consider being with a woman as a partner. That's not technically a judgement of someone, it's what you would look for in a partner-- I know I would want to be physically attracted to my partner. I picked my husband for a lot of reasons, but looks (and hair) was definitely up there.

Wow, so you'd leave your husband if he went bald.... oh, that's too bad.

I'm trying to find where in my post I said that, but I'm not locating it. Look, I'm stating an opinion. You are taking it as a personal attack on yourself. I don't see where in your original post you asked for support. You made a statement, so I added an opinion. I didn't think that was the wrong thing to do. I wasn't trying attack you in any way.

When you said "looks (and hair) was definitely up there," that clearly demonstrated your priorites. Looks first, then personality. With me, it's the reverse. I got the distinct impression you'd choose a man with great hair and a lousy personality, instead of a sweetheart who's bald.

That doesn't make you wrong, though, because that's how the majority of the world thinks. It's all about looks. It doesn't matter how intelligent or kind someone is, if they look like a frog they don't count. And it's especially open season on big people. It's no longer cool to make jokes about people's race, for example, but with us plus size people, we are the last group of people it's still OK to laugh at.

Um, it's not cool to make jokes about anybody's appearance, race, ethnicity, or anything like that. I'm really sorry you feel that way, but in no way did I ever insinuate that it was okay. I guess you felt that since attractiveness is important to me, that I look down on people who are overweight or something? I tend to think people are all beautiful in some way. It doesn't have to be the body or the hair-- it can be a great smile, an amazing personality, a wonderful sense of humor. I was simply stating that looks are important to me when selecting a partner. Looks, intellect, creativity, sense of humor, and a million other things. Again, my personal opinion. Not an attack on anyone.

It makes sense: "I value good looks" equals "I devalue not-so-good looks." Elementary logic, to me.

But I'm calmer now, coming back sooner than my promised 24-hour exile, because my fiancé came home from work and was very helpful.

Ironically he had been having the same discussion with some co-workers today, and unlike what I'd experienced here, he and his co-workers all agreed that looks *aren't* all that danged important. The consensus was that people who place such high value on looks are really missing out on some hidden treasures.

Then he cheered me up with an old Harry Belafonte song:

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life,
Never make a pretty woman your wife.
So from my personal point of view,
Get an ugly girl to marry you.

Which I am going to incorporate now into my signature. When I sort of jokingly suggested we play it at our wedding, he was quick to answer that he doesn't actually consider me ugly. But you know, a lot of people do...

And as for it being the men's forum, and they should say what they want, I feel this way: If we have to watch what we say here, because some man might read it and get his feelings hurt, then it should be the same way in reverse. (See the "just a rant about men" thread, and you'll know what I mean.)

[Rhapsody]

Hi Lovebird......

Just wanted to say that I understand what you are saying and I too am a little appalled at the thought that a lot of men seem to put LOOKS at the top of their list.... and while looks are nice - they will fade, then what is the guy left with? - hopefully not a search for a better looking female to replace the one that lost her looks over time with age.

VENT away as YOU need...... I am here listening & understanding.

Thank you, rhapsody! That helps me a lot.

One of Mike's co-workers said that if all you want is an arm trophy, that's all you're gonna get. Nothing more.

[Rhapsody]

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LovebirdsFlying said:
One of Mike's co-workers said that if all you want is an arm trophy, that's all you're gonna get. Nothing more.

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That is true..... and I have heard some men say that while she may have the looks and a really hot body - that over all she is a ****** personality wise.

IMO - while looks (being attractive) is what often first attracts us to a person - it should never be at the top of the list for a gf / bf - but then again that's my opinion as a female.

[wanttoheal]

My husband was VERY attractive to me. His hair was receding just a little bit so I know he would have had a bald spot eventually had he lived. After we had children, he got a little pooch in his belly for a time because he had as many cravings while we were pregnant as I had.

I found his hairline very sexy. I found the pooch endearing and beautiful. He started to get crows feet and gray hair on the sides of his head. He was beautiful. I was very attracted to him physically. I understand what Pink is trying to say here, though I'm sorry it triggered you guys. What kind of a relationship would I have had with my husband if I was not attracted to him? Just because people say they want to be physically attracted to another doesn't make a person bad.

I would say, ask the guy you are engaged to if he finds you beautiful. Does he find you sexy? I would imagine he would say he does to both. Would you want to be with him if he didn't? What I found sexy and attractive in my husband would be different than what another finds sexy and attractive and that's okay.

I hope you are able to work through this. We are all beautiful people.

[happyflowergirl]

I do agree what is inside is what counts the most.

But keep in mind, just because someone is attractive physically , doesn't mean they don't have good insides either.
You can have both.
But also they might not either, but that can be the case no matter how one looks physically.
So in other words, the clique fits, you can't judge the book by it's cover.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Thank you, Tishie.

I am not backing down. Attractiveness is NOT determined by what a person looks like, and you'll never catch me choosing a handsome man just because he's handsome, or turning away a man who is not handsome, just because he's not. I do not believe in judging a person's value by looks, no matter how anyone sugarcoats it.

And yes, placing it at the top of the list is repulsive. It means, "Physical attractiveness is more important than anything else." And that is a thoroughly shallow, judgmental attitude that I for one outgrew by the time I was in second grade.

[salukigirl]

i get that its disgusting that guys are just penises with a body attached basically. but at the same time. if some nasty guy came up to you and asked you out... would you say yes? he could have the coolest personality, but youre not even attracted enough to want to try in the first place. i know wed all like to sau that looks dont matter, but they do. thats just how evolution works. its there for a reason.

im not shallow by any means. but when a guy asks me out and male friend of mine asks me why i said no i will still say things like "ewwwww". its okay to do things like that. thats what makes us human. its not okay when it turns into things like: leaving your wife for a younger woman. dumping someone because they gain weight but their personality hasnt changed. etc... those things are shallow, imo.

[youOme]

It's natural...physical attraction.

[youOme]

I'll be honest, I would never date a guy shorter then me.

In order for attraction to begin there has to be some sort of physical correlation between the man and woman. Did you ever notice that alot of couples kind of resemble each other in a sense. They're both thin, both fat, both white, both black..whatever. It's subconscious natural mate selection thinggie majigger okay.

I don't blame men, I blame pheromones and hormones. Women LOOK just as much as men, if not more... I know damn well I do.

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youOme said:
I'll be honest, I would never date a guy shorter then me.

In order for attraction to begin there has to be some sort of physical correlation between the man and woman. Did you ever notice that alot of couples kind of resemble each other in a sense. They're both thin, both fat, both white, both black..whatever. It's subconscious natural mate selection thinggie majigger okay.

I don't blame men, I blame pheromones and hormones. Women LOOK just as much as men, if not more... I know damn well I do.

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I disagree. I think it's morally wrong to toss someone away on the basis of something they can't help, such as height or skin color or whatever, and I also disagree that couples need to look alike in order to be attracted to each other. As a matter of fact, I was watching HGTV earlier today, and I saw a bathroom being redesigned for an interracial married couple. She was blonde and white, he was bald and black. They didn't look a thing like each other. Likewise I've seen small, thin men with tall, big women, and I've seen short women with tall men. And remember when Julia Roberts married Lyle Lovett? Now, there's a couple that doesn't look alike!

[LMo]

I just read that thread, and I only saw one or two people who put looks at the top of the list. But that doesn't mean that their list only had one and only trait, nor did it mean that they only would consider dating good-looking women. I'd be careful not to read too much into a "list" of "ideal" characteristics.

I am very attracted to my husband physically, but that's not at all why I started dating him. He seemed too young for me when I met him, and despite being attractive, I decided I did NOT want to date someone so much younger (he turned out only to be 5 years younger, but he seemed younger than that). But after getting to know him as friends, he did end up charming me with his sensitivity, intelligence, and nurturing characteristics, and THAT is what won me over. The fact that he was also attractive (to me - not necessarily to everyone) was an added bonus.

Just be careful not to read too much into lists - in general, they are harmful to read if one is insecure about themselves.

[LMo]

...and you know, Lovebirds, I bet your fiance finds you attractive. Does it make him shallow because he does? No - everyone is attracted to different things. There is no single ideal of what beauty looks like. Not everyone things that Paris Hilton is beautiful or ideal. I know that my husband thinks I'm pretty but to some other men, I am not in the least attractive. I think my husband is handsome, but he before me, he tried to date other women who told him that they didn't find him attractive.

What is important is that your mate be attractive *to you* and that you are attractive *to him or her*. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone, male or female, who would say that "universally attractive" is at the top of their list.

What makes me insecure is that Donald Trump said, "Any man would rather date a supermodel, if he could get one." Backing this up is that an ex of mine told me initially that he was attracted to big women, but toward the end of our marriage he "confessed" that he didn't actually prefer bigger women but thought that he himself was so unattractive that he couldn't get a lingerie model. His words.

So, what I wonder is, whether the men in my life have been attracted to me, or merely settled for me.

As for genetic predisposition, my daughter points out that we are not monkeys and have the ability to overcome evolutionary programming.