[hungryghost]

I've been making my way through the first book in this set http://phoenixrisingpublications.ca/item.php?itemId=207 , and while I was feeling some hope at first, the further in I get the more doubt starts to overtake me. When I got to the part about imposing emotional structure, delaying self-gratification, and learning all those related "grown up" emotional skills, something in me panicked and rebelled like crazy.

It sounds like agonizing work, and for what? "Living" rather than surviving? What's the value in that? Why can't I stay like this? I'm fine. If I take my anxiety meds, and avoid triggers, and dissociate, it's fine and I'm relatively content if I don't look at the dark places. It's enough.

It's taken me a long time to become capable of repressing it well enough that it no longer bleeds through regularly. It's far away, and I exist separately from it now. I don't have outbursts. I rarely rage at people anymore. If something triggers me I suck it all inside and react quietly so that people don't notice. I can't risk ruining this and destabilizing and becoming like I used to be - constantly on edge and prone to hair-trigger rages and meltdowns and panic attacks.

The entire thing feels like a big catch-22. In order to recover, you have to break again. In order to find your authentic identity, you have to destroy what you've built to survive. All while still somehow living the daily life you have.

I'm trying to remember this - "Each time you come to the pain of regret let it be a reminder of all that you are working to change and why." - since terrible, devastating regret is what brought me to the point of looking at myself. And becoming a better person feels like the only thing that will balance the scales against the damage I've done.

It's hard, hopefully this helps: All people, bpd and nons, hate change to some extent. Whether we are in a life of pain and misery or of happiness and peace, we get used to it. It's what we know. Even though you know you suffer from emotional dysregulation and have seen the destruction that ensues when you "lose it" it's what you know. it's easier to keep doing what you're doing than to risk something new, even if that new way would most likely be good for you. I mean, we think, "what if it's not?", or "what if I try and fail?" or any number of other what ifs we can come up with and we remain stagnant.

Another thought about what you're saying is that we as people with BPD, go through self loathing and then the other end of the spectrum of thinking "I'm fine as I am" kind of thing. I see it as you're kind of in the "I'm fine" mode right now and that's understandable. Just remember, something brought you here so something about how you are isn't sitting well with you.

Keep posting here, you'll find answers and hopefully help.
~S4

I don't think the "breaking" is necessary to get better. I've done the meditation and the DBT and have gotten enough out of it to make things easier. The hard part is to stick with it. On the days you feel good, you don't do it. You get that feeling that "all is better now"; you deceive yourself, and that make it harder when you're having a hard time and try to get back in to it. I don't think there's a "cure", but there are things you can do, with or without therapy, to help.

Let me know if you'd like info on the meditation and DBT I've tried. I'd be happy to pass on the info.

[greyclouds]

I couldn't read all your post, but I've been asking myself this question a lot.

Although I hate this illness, but who am I with out it??

I don't know life with out a drama. I don't life with out pain and suffering.
And I don't know how to be extremely happy and out going with out it.

If you take it away. Who the hell am I suppose to be?

Originally Posted by greyclouds

Although I hate this illness, but who am I with out it??

You'll never be without it...it is part of you....but I feel that you can learn to control the worst part of it for the most part. I do not believe it gets better with age as they often say, but it does get better with circumstances. As your life progresses there are supposedly less "triggers"; a lot of the emotional crap in your life eases up, and with it the more extreme of our issues, plus, as Hungryghost said, your mind learns to cope somewhat on it's own. You still have ups and downs and bad periods but they are tolerable for the most part. What happened to me was my life HAD gotten better for the most part and then BAM I was hit by a number of issues at once and could no longer cope....

[greyclouds]

Originally Posted by Maranara

You'll never be without it...it is part of you....but I feel that you can learn to control the worst part of it for the most part. I do not believe it gets better with age as they often say, but it does get better with circumstances. As your life progresses there are supposedly less "triggers"; a lot of the emotional crap in your life eases up, and with it the more extreme of our issues, plus, as Hungryghost said, your mind learns to cope somewhat on it's own. You still have ups and downs and bad periods but they are tolerable for the most part. What happened to me was my life HAD gotten better for the most part and then BAM I was hit by a number of issues at once and could no longer cope....

That's what scares me ((hugs)) there ain't no real cure is there.
We will always be this way, maybe lose some traits but there always a chance some will trigger them off

[hungryghost]

Originally Posted by Maranara

Let me know if you'd like info on the meditation and DBT I've tried. I'd be happy to pass on the info.

Yes, I would, thank you. I have bookmarked two of the links you've posted.. one a site with short meditations and another DBT link. Are those what you're talking about?

...

And you know what? All this 'it will always be a part of you' stuff just makes me want to rebel. Rebel against the hopelessness. I will find my authentic self, and nurture her, and let her live, and I will kick this thing's butt. I'm tired of fooling myself into feeling that I'm "fine", that I've finally found "It" (It always being something outside myself), and then having it all crash down again because it was all illusory. I'm sick of being controlled by my defenses. I'm going to go inside.. and find ME.

Yea, you've got 'em.

....and BPD IS part of the real you. BPD does have a few advantages that should not be overlooked. BPD makes us sensitive to other people's issues, it makes us more caring and empathetic, and the vast majority of us are more academic and/or creative due to the BPD. We don't want to get rid of it. We just want to be able to control it instead of it controlling us.

Originally Posted by Maranara

Yea, you've got 'em.

....and BPD IS part of the real you. BPD does have a few advantages that should not be overlooked. BPD makes us sensitive to other people's issues, it makes us more caring and empathetic, and the vast majority of us are more academic and/or creative due to the BPD. We don't want to get rid of it. We just want to be able to control it instead of it controlling us.

I believe to a point that BPD is part of a person but it is not who they are. I don't think that because of BPD I'm as artistic as I am. I think that bpd describes the unwanted traits. I don't know. I consider this all the time and still do not accept that BPD is what makes me what I am. I've been an artist since childhood but I believe that BPD sometimes is caused by trauma and extreme abuse or other life changing things. I think that I would still be as emotional as I am today without bpd but because of the horrible upbringing it caused this emotional anomaly that is part of me, become bpd.

As with the academics, I think that it's more of the same, people who tend to be smarter and more analytical live life closer to the edge of genius/insanity and coupled with emotional sensitivity, they are very prone to become bpd. I think the intelligence and emotional people are more prone to BPD if not taken care of in early life but I believe those things exist not because of the BPD. Again I think those things are part of you but BPD stems from those, not the other way around.

[cboxpalace]

Originally Posted by hungryghost

When I got to the part about imposing emotional structure, delaying self-gratification, and learning all those related "grown up" emotional skills, something in me panicked and rebelled like crazy.

It sounds like agonizing work, and for what? "Living" rather than surviving? What's the value in that? Why can't I stay like this? I'm fine. If I take my anxiety meds, and avoid triggers, and dissociate, it's fine and I'm relatively content if I don't look at the dark places. It's enough.

It's taken me a long time to become capable of repressing it well enough that it no longer bleeds through regularly. It's far away, and I exist separately from it now. I don't have outbursts. I rarely rage at people anymore. If something triggers me I suck it all inside and react quietly so that people don't notice. I can't risk ruining this and destabilizing and becoming like I used to be - constantly on edge and prone to hair-trigger rages and meltdowns and panic attacks.

The entire thing feels like a big catch-22. In order to recover, you have to break again. In order to find your authentic identity, you have to destroy what you've built to survive. All while still somehow living the daily life you have.

I've quoted a lot and my answer will probably be a mish mash that will hopefully make sense.

I suppose the questions to ask yourself do you want to recover? Are you content the way you are? Is recovery possible?

You could say that you are recovered, because you don't have outbursts and are in control of your emotional reactions. You sound a lot like me. Is that recovered? I don't think so, to me, it's just a different manifestation of dysfunctional way in which to cope.

There will be some that say recovery is possible for EVERYONE, which I guess is true and false. I could say that on the outside it's true that you are recovered, but emotionally underneath (your inner being), if you're like me, then the answer would be false.

I believe, it all goes back to childhood and where we stopped growing emotionally and developed dysfunctional ways in which to adapt, whatever a healthy emotion is it did not fully develop. This will be different for everyone and some will have a more FULL recovery (logic + emotions that are linked together) than others. It seems that my emotional range is extremely limited. If you presented me with a scenario I'd know immediately what the logical response should be, but depending on the situation I'd have to think if I'd feel anything emotionally. Whereas a "non" would be able to immediately answer the question in terms of logic / emotion. My manager once asked me if I felt empathy with the customer, because he wanted me to empathize with them more. My answer was no. I don't feel empathy even though I logically knew what I should feel. I did not like pretending by saying something that I did not feel. It felt like a lie, and it felt like they could see through me. My thought process is I do not know these people, we are not friends, we never will be friends so why would I feel anything. It's completely foreign to me why someone else would care. I don't understand that. When I have achieved something that I know I should have a content feeling or a sense of accomplishment. I have the logical part of knowing I achieved something, but otherwise I don't feel anything and I'm still left feeling empty. It feels like a waste of time, because I could of done nothing and felt the sameway with a lot less effort. I guess this is where it goes back to childhood and emotional development and sense of self. It's developed over the ones adolescence. I don't know how that can be learned as an adult. I could say that I'm recovered, but I've also become EXTREMELY detached which is just a different form of dysfunction.

If recovery to you is logically knowing, being detached so you can control your dysfunctional emotions/outbursts then recovery is possible.. It seems you've achieved it.

If recovery to you is logically knowing, feeling appropriate emotions and having the two linked together then I think it is more questionable and that success will vary with everyone.

In someways, I see controlling the external dysfunctional behaviors as being the easy part. They're actions that can be learned. I've been quite successful in using some dbt skills. It's helpful in accomplishing some tasks and dealing with certain stresses. It's a learned process. It's the feelings/emotions that is the hard part. I'm not quite sure how to feel something that may not be there, and if it's not how do you learn it? I don't know.. Without the emotional development it's basically just going through the motions of life and not much else.

[hungryghost]

Thank you for the differing viewpoints, all. We all seem to see it a little differently. My own tendency lies towards the predisposing temperament + environmental factors in the development of BPD (see this article on the Etiology of BPD). So, I do not think BPD defines all of who I am, or all of who I can be. I believe I had a self and a potential-to-be that differs from the mode of being I had to build in order to survive.

I don't consider my trait masking/"high-functioning" to be recovery of any sort. The devil is in the details, and in close relationships or with anyone I care about, it all falls apart and I become something else entirely. No matter how happy I might feel in a given moment, there's always dread. Dread that the darkness will come like an undertow and sweep me away again. I hurt the people I'm close to horribly. For me, that's not recovery. (Unless I keep running away and really do become a hermit!)

cboxpalace, it does sound like we function similarly! It sounds a bit like the Detached Protector mode from schema therapy, and is what I function under most times. But in my case, I am sometimes in touch with my emotional side. I definitely know I have one, and it has a lot of empathy. But it's the childish lack-of-boundaries "who's actually being hurt here?" kind of empathy. It's completely split off from me (rational me, thinking me), and integration between the two is my ultimate goal. I hate passionately loving someone one minute and feeling nothing towards them the next. I really do. Under stress (which can be as "minor" as the stress of passing for normal), I default to being detached.

Recovery, for me, would mean integration of the emotional self I had to protect at all costs with the helpful traits and skills I've learned over time - my logic, rationality, objectiveness, and ability to fake being "normal". It probably means something different to everyone, and I understand that not everyone is interested in that particular journey.

Some links/quotes that I strongly relate to and that are relevant to this post/my journey:

http://www.therapist-training.com.au...ellogyoung.pdf

"Despite the reputation that patients who have BPD have for dramatic displays of “acting out” behavior and high levels of emotional intensity, most of the time, they are typically functioning in what is called the detached protector mode, in which the patient adopts a “style of emotional withdrawal, disconnection, isolation, and behavioral avoidance” (Young et al., 2003, p. 275).

In the detached protector mode, patients may feel numb or empty. They may adopt a cynical or aloof stance to avoid investing emotionally in people or activities. Behavioral examples include social withdrawal, excessive self-reliance, addictive self-soothing, fantasizing, compulsive distraction, and stimulation seeking (p. 275).

Another complication here is that although the detached protector mode has helped
patients survive, it interferes with psychotherapeutic progress and keeps the abandoned
and abused child blocked off from a therapeutic connection."

and http://www.primals.org/articles/hannig03.html

"In many interactions the BP is not emotionally present. Relating is from only pieces or parts of the self. To the trained observer it is obvious that the missing aspects of the personality have not been felt, recovered, and integrated into a solid whole.

As real feelings emerge, the borderline becomes terrified of "going crazy' and never being able to come out of it.

The deflated false self of the borderline is unreal (Masterson, 1988). The client is deluded into believing that this horribly low self is the real self. The BP comes from a false-self-oriented family structure which reinforces the belief that the false self is one's true identity. It is as if the child's head is opened up and a depressed, unhappy, disconnected, alienated personality is implanted, completely destroying the real self. The borderline identifies with, and glues himself, to the false, denigrated, and self-loathing personality. This personality is an unreal mask that the BP wants the world and the therapist to accept as the real self. It represents self-deception and denial of the inner person, who therefore remains completely hidden from the self. A real self is a creature of hope, enthusiasm, joy, and love. But the borderline's belief is that the unhappy mask is actually the real person.

The borderline has difficulty experiencing the feeling of mourning for the loss of the real self, the inner child. The BP is unfamiliar, almost a stranger, to himself."

(Sorry, another long post from me. )

I've displayed distinctive borderline traits since I was about 5 years old, and I dislike looking at myself as old or fatalistic, but I believe the recovery you are searching for is beyond me. I have 40 years of ingrained behavior and mindset to overcome with no support other than what I receive here at PC and people/situations that persistantly reinforce this behavior. As it is, I consider myself lucky to finally grasp and understand my lifelong struggles. I fooled myself in believing I was "normal" for entirely too long, only coming to the realization in just this past year. I believe this type of "recovery" is totally unfathomable for me at this point without something life-altering ocurring or a lenghty hospital stay that totally immerses me in what you describe. I will, however, read what you have offered and at least think about it Please let us know how it goes for you. I am curious.

[cboxpalace]

Originally Posted by hungryghost

Some links/quotes that I strongly relate to and that are relevant to this post/my journey:

http://www.therapist-training.com.au...ellogyoung.pdf

"Despite the reputation that patients who have BPD have for dramatic displays of “acting out” behavior and high levels of emotional intensity, most of the time, they are typically functioning in what is called the detached protector mode, in which the patient adopts a “style of emotional withdrawal, disconnection, isolation, and behavioral avoidance” (Young et al., 2003, p. 275).

In the detached protector mode, patients may feel numb or empty. They may adopt a cynical or aloof stance to avoid investing emotionally in people or activities. Behavioral examples include social withdrawal, excessive self-reliance, addictive self-soothing, fantasizing, compulsive distraction, and stimulation seeking (p. 275).

Another complication here is that although the detached protector mode has helped
patients survive, it interferes with psychotherapeutic progress and keeps the abandoned
and abused child blocked off from a therapeutic connection."

I appreciate you pointing this out, because I've never heard of detached protector mode before, but it definitely sounds a lot like me.. For awhile I thought I was developing schizoid traits although my therapist assured me that is not the case. I don't hate people, but I wouldn't say that I like them either. It's more.. I tolerate them, and that's about the extent of it. I have a lot of animosity in me, and it's not towards people, and I'm not even sure it's towards me (I'd have to think about this). It would definitely be towards the effects of bpd on me and others. In my detached state I'm protected from others and they are protected from me. It's not a great way to live, but it's better than the alternative. At least for now.

Thanks again!!

[hungryghost]

Originally Posted by Maranara

I've displayed distinctive borderline traits since I was about 5 years old, and I dislike looking at myself as old or fatalistic, but I believe the recovery you are searching for is beyond me. I have 40 years of ingrained behavior and mindset to overcome with no support other than what I receive here at PC and people/situations that persistantly reinforce this behavior.

Which traits? I'm curious if they relate to any of the three phenotypes in the article I linked. For myself, as a young child, I was extremely emotionally volatile, overly sensitive, impulsive, tended to attach to/idealize people very rapidly (and was as strongly devastated when they left), and had no boundaries. Basically the same as I am now, but without the defense system and dissociation.

So, if we're talking traits that mesh with BPD traits, I can see viewing the BPD as an intrinsic part of oneself? Maybe the goal is to get oneself down to having those traits in such a way that they do not interfere with one's life to the extent that something must in order to be considered a full-blown PD? Just musing here.

For myself, I've always known, on some strange level, that I would have to undergo something like a Shamanic Death in order to fully become who I'm meant to be, and that's echoed very strongly in what I'm reading now about needing to undergo one more abandonment - the abandonment of my false selves - in order to make my way through this and heal. It's "the way out is through" theory. But... that's me. I've been haunted my entire adolescent and adult life by that screaming voice inside me that lives on despite my many, many attempts to kill it. It's the voice of a terrified, cold, hurt, utterly alone and abandoned child. And it won't stop. It won't go away.

I am very, very fortunate in that I am in a relatively safe situation, living with someone who rarely triggers me anymore. I know that's not the case for everyone.

Originally Posted by hungryghost

Which traits? I'm curious if they relate to any of the three phenotypes in the article I linked. For myself, as a young child, I was extremely emotionally volatile, overly sensitive, impulsive, tended to attach to/idealize people very rapidly (and was as strongly devastated when they left), and had no boundaries. Basically the same as I am now, but without the defense system and dissociation.

At 4-5, my fear of abandonment was already developing due to my parents' constant fighting and a suicide attempt on behalf of my mom. I also already knew that most negative emotions were considered unacceptable. Only anger and physical pain were okay. My knees started dislocating when I was five and I remember pretending they had dislocated for attention. I also felt like a bother to others already. I remember being in a half-sleep and my mom coming in and asking me if I wanted to go to Dairy Queen. I was afraid to get up or say I was awake because I was scared of being a bother. I also remember sleeping in a crib in my parents room until I was 4 or 5. I remember several nights where I imagined the curtains being monsters and being scared silly but making no noise because I felt as though I'd be punished if I woke my parents.

I believe my first time disassociating was after my mom beat me when I was eight, and I was doing it regularly by the time I was ten due to a deteriorating home life (all of my siblings left when I was 9...more abandonment stuff) and being at the mercy of bullies at school. I never told my parents or anyone of my bullying until very recently, once again because I felt as though I'd be rebuked if I said anything.

[hungryghost]

I can relate to faking things for attention... wow. It's something I've beat myself up over for years, thinking it made me a bad, terrible person. (Well, I was told that, of course! Don't lie, don't make things up, don't draw attention to yourself, don't bother people, don't embarrass your mother, your mother works so hard, why are you so much trouble, why can't you behave like the other children...)

It was only when I was in therapy for my ADHD a few years ago (and reading a wonderful book about how attachment disorders and ADHD relate to one another) that it finally occurred to me to wonder: Why did I need to do those things in the first place? Maybe it wasn't because I was an inherently rotten person?

It's weird that you mention the 8-9-10 age, because that's the third time it's come up recently in my reading and talking with people - fourth, if you include my own things at that age - as if it might be the final "breaking point" for people...

[AngelWolf3]

Originally Posted by hungryghost


Some links/quotes that I strongly relate to and that are relevant to this post/my journey:

http://www.therapist-training.com.au...ellogyoung.pdf

"Despite the reputation that patients who have BPD have for dramatic displays of “acting out” behavior and high levels of emotional intensity, most of the time, they are typically functioning in what is called the detached protector mode, in which the patient adopts a “style of emotional withdrawal, disconnection, isolation, and behavioral avoidance” (Young et al., 2003, p. 275).

In the detached protector mode, patients may feel numb or empty. They may adopt a cynical or aloof stance to avoid investing emotionally in people or activities. Behavioral examples include social withdrawal, excessive self-reliance, addictive self-soothing, fantasizing, compulsive distraction, and stimulation seeking (p. 275).

Another complication here is that although the detached protector mode has helped
patients survive, it interferes with psychotherapeutic progress and keeps the abandoned
and abused child blocked off from a therapeutic connection."

I find myself doing this a lot in therapy. It's like my T is trying to reach in, and I won't let it happen. I also do this with people who try to get close...

Thanks for sharing.

[unaluna]

Ghost - this e-author is barely literate - I mean, I can hardly understand the excerpts from her book. I hate to see you stressing over it. This thread asks some good questions and has some good answers, but I don't like the ebooks. I will check out the other article to see if I can relate. I feel like you (or somebody In thIs thread) - I am calming down, nobody is harassing me at home. I want to build up from here, not tear down again.

[hungryghost]

Originally Posted by hankster

Ghost - this e-author is barely literate - I mean, I can hardly understand the excerpts from her book.

Oh... really? I think there's some editing needed with style and the tendency towards circular phrasing, but I don't find it difficult to understand, and I relate to it so much it's as though she's in my head. Maybe that just means I'm illiterate and defective.

[unaluna]

No, I'm sorry!!! Really! When there used to be paper bookstores, I'd look in books, and I'd be like, I can't read this. But they were best sellers. So if it is speaking to you, it is. She was just asking too many questions and making me anxious. I am really sorry.

[hungryghost]

Originally Posted by hankster

No, I'm sorry!!! Really! When there used to be paper bookstores, I'd look in books, and I'd be like, I can't read this. But they were best sellers. So if it is speaking to you, it is. She was just asking too many questions and making me anxious. I am really sorry.

Don't apologize for having an opinion! My reaction is out of proportion - I'm just trying to actually stay in touch with my stupid reactions to things rather than dissociating from them. It's hellish, but I feel like I'm learning something from them.

So, someone disliking something I like makes me feel as though I am as bad and worthless as the disliked thing, and that I am stupid for liking it.

Thank you for hitting a trigger. Only way to learn, eh?

[unaluna]

I appreciate you saying something. Usually people just give me the stinkeye and walk off in a huff. And I don't even know I did something offensive as usual. Oh well!! so Thank you!

[TheRealFDeal]

Recovery is hard, and very painful. For me, it's either try or take myself out. (Black and White , right?) I admire and am impressed how much research and self-help you are putting into your recovery. I'm terrible with homework. I just can't stick to self-help because it requires so much of myself. Energy, and the will to get better - I need the support of a therapist. And I wish I had DBT available in my area so I could be part of a group. I tried online DBT, and I just don't have the discipline for it. I also don't have the motivation, I don't think I'm worth it, etc. Please keep sharing your research - I found it thought-provoking.

[hungryghost]

I have zero discipline, and little motivation much of the time. I'm not sure I'm really making much of an effort to do anything but research... One thing I'm good at. There's a danger of it veering into over-intellectualization of the issue without actually addressing it. Another thing I'm good at. So I'm looking for a therapist, too, but it's hard. The idea of relying on/attaching to one in the way that's needed for it to work... ugh.

All of which takes me back to the question, "Is it worth it...?" Who knows.