Same Toxic As Always

This was the second phone call today from Mom. The first one, I had to tell her to “please respect my boundaries” because she went on a rant about politics and how she writes about it on facebook. She was reading to me what she posted. I hate that she is so narcissistic about her facebook postings and constantly harps on me to read what she posts. I told her facebook is totally unimportant. I do not want to have political discussions. And I begged her to stop talking politics and to please respect my boundaries! That was the first conversation that ended fairly well.

But then she had to call back later to tell me how my aunt told her she thinks me and my sisters are POS. My mom wanted to know if it was true that I had not contacted my cousin. I said it was true. I apologized and said I felt bad about not doing it, and that I had tried last night.

But then I got angry at how my mom just had to go and tell us what my aunt said to her. This was just to stir up bad feelings, right? I asked her if she thought my aunt was lying. Why did she need to call me to confirm. Yes, it was true.

I just can’t get along with her.

I am in my head while she is speaking telling myself to get off the phone without a fight, but then I fall into it.

And I’ve been telling her every time she calls how nice it is to be toxic drama free lately. Every time she starts with me, I remind her how I have eliminated toxic drama for my mental health. But she won’t let up until she triggers me to an altercation!

Well, it sounds like you are on a "drama patsy list" Trisha. It can become a habit that takes time to break so don't beat yourself up, just keep working on it little by little.

What should I do? Should I call her tomorrow and act like nothing happened? She likes to act like nothing happened.

Lol. So true. I got off frenemy’s call list but am still on mother’s.

What does she get out of it?

Ten points for me, at least I didn’t perpetuate it by calling my sisters. I know my mom is calling everybody on the list and bad mouthing me right now.

I emailed my cousin my condolences. I told her I tried to call her yesterday but couldn’t get through.

I don’t know why I had anxiety about sending condolences and put it off.

I know it would have been nicer to mail her a card, but she sent a simple email for her wedding invitation.

I’ll call my mom in a couple of days and act like nothing happened. That’s the dysfunction bs way we are now. I feel like an awful brat daughter for telling off my mother, especially my 83 year old mother. Everyone here must think I’m trash. I’m sorry I don’t have better self control. I will try to get off the phone next time she starts. If there even is any next time if she is speaking to me.

When our kids are little, we teach them to write thank you notes, etc but now that you are an adult--your aunt and her are just crossing boundaries/gossiping--you and your cousin's relationship is between the two of you. No wonder you have anxiety. Your mom has likely been too enmeshed in your business your whole life and you have a bad habit of giving her what she wants (verses what you want and need) because she trained you to be this way and you went along because you just wanted to make her happy/love her.

And she gave you too many negative messages about yourself--procrastination is a very minor crime. You definitely aren't trash but perhaps you let your H and mom get away with WAY too much! But now you are taking your life back and the more you do this, the better you will feel about yourself!

And I have mixed feelings about my aunt and cousin. During the fight last year where my mother blew up at me in front of my aunt, which she had never seen before, my aunt did not come to my defense. She never even called me to see if I was alive and didn’t crash in a car accident after I left in tears. When I told my aunt, that same time, before the blow up, how I had lost my virginity to a date rape, she literally turned her back to me and changed the topic!

But yes, she has flown down for my kids’ milestone events. I do appreciate that.

My cousin is a terrible snob. It’s rather hit and miss with them.

So, while I know it was the right thing to do, and I did want to call my cousin, something made me put it off. I really don’t know why I didn’t just call her right away. Her father died. My bad.

As for my sisters, they intentionally didn’t call her because she has been totally uninvolved with them and never called them all these years. So they have chips on their shoulders. But I don’t.

There is this hierarchy of this woman power, pecking order in my family. My mom and aunt are both extremely intelligent. But my mom is the 50’s housewife, and my aunt is the extremely high achieving professional. They have a rivalry. My former frenemy called them Jeannie and her evil sister! (From I Dream of Jeannie). One is blonde and the other brunette, too!

((TishaBuv)),

I can relate to the frustration you express. Unfortunately, you have been expected to play a role and your mother has proven she is only capable of interacting in the role she learned how to play her entire life. The reality is that no matter what you do or say, you are going to get the same from her and you have to finally realize she is incapable of changing or even recognizing her faults. YES, your mother is going to make statements to you that can be disrespectful and controlling, then as you have shared she will act like this negative exchange never happened. You have to come to a realization that you are not going to change that about her. Your mother basically plays the same tape in her head and at 83 years old that's really not going to change, it's just too automatic at this point in her brain.

Think of it this way, like you have a Teddy Ruxbin that comes with certain tapes that you can play and these tapes NEVER change no matter how you interact with this toy bear. You can put him away for YEARS and then one day get him out and play with him and sure enough, he will still only be able to interact with you based on the tapes you put in him that cause him to say the same things no matter what "you" say to him.

The demonic teddy bear is a great, helpful image. You pull its string and it says, “you’re stupid”, “you’re bad” no matter what you do.

I’m not calling my mother yet. I really don’t want to play these games. I have no reason to talk to her. It serves me no purpose. I call because I try to show caring for her. But when she attacks and triggers me, it only causes me harm. Taking care of myself, putting myself first for my mental health is what I want to do now for ME.

I’ve gotten into a nice routine at home, my son and I. Peace, love, tranquility. I enjoy gardening, swimming. I’ve been reading a novel. I’ve been cleaning and organizing. I have a couple of projects to do.

I’m still feeling ok.

Tisha, is ok to choose not to engage with your mother. It sounds like you got into a habit with that and you have been coming to the realization that engaging with your mother ends up with you feeling like you did something wrong. Well, your mother is in the habit of pointing out what she considers "failures" and she always believes she is right and knows better which is why she also chooses to "forget" any kind of objections you may express to her where she ended up condescending towards you instead of considering "your" feelings. That is pretty much how you describe your interactions with her when I read them.

It’s a delicate balance I am trying to do. I don’t want to go no contact and have no relationship at all. It’s too painful and it excludes me from the rest of the family. Plus, she gets over the fight and will act her normal once again. She’s not always nasty. It comes and goes. I still don’t really understand what makes her be nice sometimes, then get vicious others. Maybe it has to do with her reeling me back in once I’ve stopped calling her, her being nice when I am doing something nice for her, her being nice when I have been hurt by someone else (like calling to check on me when my husband moved out, or commiserating with me when I defriended my best friend)

She gets vicious when I criticize her. Like this last time; she wanted to have a political rant while I indulge her by listening. Not an actual conversation. That would mean a give and take between us, and she doesn’t let me get a word in. When I told her I did not want to hear it and I didn’t care about her facebook posts, she must have gotten insulted. So then when she had the conversation with my aunt, who said she was disappointed in me and my sisters, my mom couldn’t wait to call me to tell me I’m a POS. See, if I understand her, I can deal with her better.

But, while I am actively telling myself to stay calm and not react, I end up criticizing her but that only makes her get vicious. Why do I have such a hard time understanding that?

I was diagnosed with PTSD. I think this is that kind of reaction. When I do this, it makes me feel bad. I don’t like fighting with my mother. But it feels like if I don’t I feel like I’ve been emotionally attacked and if I don’t defend myself and call her out on her bad behavior, if feels like getting beaten up and just turning the other cheek. That’s very tough to do!

And there she is again. 24 hours later, and she’s giving likes again on fb and commenting on my posts. So I gave her back ‘likes’. Unbelievable, huh? Eh, it is what it is. She’s no doubt thinking I’m the one who is emotionally disturbed (not her at all), and she is taking the high road. Fine. Whatever.

You "do" understand that Tisha, but you have not always figured out how to "change" your own tape "before" you get caught up in it. You know that saying, "Old habits die hard"? Well, there is a lot of truth to it for "everyone".

The story got even stranger after speaking to my sister yesterday. She hadn’t talked to Mom, and I told her what happened. She was shocked because she had called our aunt and cousin and had long conversations with them. We figure the conversation between my aunt and mom was not at all what my mom relayed.

Mom does twist things around and she has lied to serve her. So now I have to remind myself that anything she says is not to be taken as factual.

She exhausts me.

Mom’s relationship with all three daughters is very different. She never calls the sister I just spoke of...never. My sister calls her every 4-7 days. My other sister calls Mom at least once daily. She never engages about anything of depth. They talk very briefly about tv shows. I’m sure it’s frustrating for Mom that she can’t delve into that sister. She barks out her brief update and rushes off the phone. Mom mostly lets me call her, but when we are getting along she may call up to several times daily, or she will call when she hasn’t heard from me in a while. We do get into deep, psychological conversations which sometimes end in a fight.

So, I will have to stop doing that. I must be more like my brief, shallow sister.

Well, just because someone doesn't care to sit and talk on the phone doesn't necessarily mean the person is shallow. Actually, sometimes the people that talk and talk and gossip etc., are the ones that are shallow and have nothing better to do or don't have lives and other interests other than gossiping etc.

Well, this can happen in an effort to create "drama" because someone is bored too.

I realized the hard way that this is what I have to do with my mom. Avoiding giving her ammunition means it is harder for her to criticize and attack me.

It is hard at first, but will get easier with time. Stick with neutral topics and if she tries to question you about the divorce, etc, tell her the topic isn't open for discussion.

If she is doing this to entertain herself, that is the most messed up thing ever!

Yes, I’ve done this before, and it does work with my mom. She likes hearing good news and light conversation.

Maybe it’s me that makes it go bad.

When she called to want to have a political rant conversation, I could have handled it better. When I insulted her by saying I don’t care about her facebook posts, that was antagonistic of me. But, it really gets to me how full of herself she is about that, and how she insists of reading to me what she writes.

Then when she called back to ask me if it was true how I didn’t contact my cousin, I said it was, I apologized to my mom (for my bad behavior reflecting on her parenting, I suppose). But, then when it hit me how she was just stirring up trouble by calling to tell me what my aunt said, it caused me to tell her that was not helpful, instead hurtful, and how can I fix the situation now that I’ve been told off?

If I can remember, in the heat of the discussion, that criticizing my mother is only going to blow up in my face, then I can just hang up the phone.

But, it just doesn’t matter! So I told off her and my dad. Nothing came of it. Everyone will act like it didn’t happen. Nothing lost, nothing gained.

Personally I’d stop long psychological conversations with her on the phone as it seems to always result in fights and drama.

Maybe your sister keep phone conversations to a minimum not because she is shallow (?) but because she doesn’t want to be sucked in toxic drama. Or maybe she simply doesn’t have the time for this. Most busy people don’t even have the time for long phone conversations.

My dad is quite toxic and if I engaged in these long conversations with him discussing other relatives or some other drama, we’d fight all the time. I avoid that. You don’t have to neglect your elderly mother of course. Do go visit, brung her things, help her out but you don’t need to get sucked into drama every time.

Yes, of course you are right, but that is the family dynamic and a very hard habit to break.

Shallow was an insulting word. I’m not trying to be insulting to my sister. I’m not sure of the correct word for the opposite of a deep conversation. It’s hard to explain the relationship between my mom, us daughters, the grandmother and her generation, and the children.

It’s also my perception of this whole dynamic and how it makes me feel. Could I be all wrong and off the mark on it?

Even this whole calling my mother thing is a game of control. I haven’t called her since the fight. I really don’t want to call her. I have nothing to say to her. She wants me to call her to show my love. It’s a whole manipulation game.

I think it’s proper to call one’s mother every few days, give her only the good news, and not engage in negative drama talk...so that’s what I’ll try to do.

It’s all water under the bridge. All the love and all the abuse, it’s history. The clock is running out its final days. There’s nothing more to be than the minimum of what a daughter should be. I am to maintain no more involvement than that. Whatever she says will not be indulged...lots of cakes burning in the oven, forcing me off the phone.

She really is a mentally ill woman who set herself up for maximum suffering. I am going to have to let that happen to her because I have no power to help. I need to help myself.

It sounds like you keep resenting whatever your mother failed to do as a mother. If your mother is sensitive to criticism then she is reflecting her own low self esteem challenge. It sounds like your mother looks for validation a lot. Often a person will do that in ways that can feel "intrusive" and immature and even selfish. Well, given your mother's age and generation she will be following a lot of the social messages of her generation, it's a tape that she ended up being encouraged to develop.

At least your mother is still engaging and "trying" and has managed to participate with some of the social methods of today. My mother can't do that, my mother has dementia and can't even remember what she did or said 10 minutes ago never mind yesterday. My father is even worse, he doesn't even know who I am. I am envious of you, I can't even talk to my mother like you can.

What both you and I long for, what everybody craves is a sweet, loving mother and father who cares about us. I do have that a good amount of the time, and I do appreciate it. But I also have toxic very much of the time too.

Yes, I’m resentful that in mom’s controlling, destructive way I had a lot of trauma too. I’m resentful that I learned bad behavior from watching her and did my part in ruining my marriage. I’m moving on. It’s all behind us.

All is fine with Mom again. It was facebook to the rescue for giving silly comments and likes to smooth out the fight, like nothing happened. I had a reason to call her yesterday. She brought up the fight again over my aunt, again saying how none of us daughters had called. I told her I spoke to my sister who said she did call. For some reason now, Mom twists everything and lies. Now that I understand that, I can get along with her better. I’ll just let that go and take everything she says with a grain of salt. It felt good to hang up telling her I love her.