[Menace2Hypocrisy]

When I was a child, I believed in a benevolent God. But as I grew older, I then became an atheist. In recent months, I have come to a different conclusion. I believe there is a God but He is imperfect and cruel. I am completely unhappy. I sometimes have pleasures in life but no happiness. This is because I know (because it has happened through out my life) that if I try to do anything warm and loving, I will be savagely and ruthlessly punished. It has happened all throughout my life.

[Rohag]

Hello & Welcome, Menace2Hypocrisy!

Originally Posted by Menace2Hypocrisy

I sometimes have pleasures in life but no happiness.

Unfortunately, in my experience at least, that makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by Menace2Hypocrisy

...if I try to do anything warm and loving, I will be savagely and ruthlessly punished. It has happened all throughout my life.

Mind sharing an incident (only if it doesn't upset you)?

[di meliora]

God is a playful thing. We are the things he/she plays with.

[Callmebj]

Menace,I am so sad to hear this; I get a lot of comfort from my faith. Without it, I would feel no comforting at all. I wonder why it is that some folks are really triggered negatively by belief in a higher power, and others are not. It maybe the exposure of the individual to circumstances and to people who are toxic. My brother has a comment he uses a lot concerning what you said about warm and loving things and how it backfires....he says "no good deed goes unpunished." He's a bit of a sceptic though. take care

hugs, bj

hi, menace2hypocrisy. i hear you. i have trouble with religion too. frankly, i think god hates me. the feeling is mutual, i hate god back. i've tried several religions and different churches of the same religion. i've met some nice people and some downright unfriendly ones. and, treatment by even the staff and of volunteers has sometimes been less than friendly. do too good a job as a volunteer and others feel threatened. please!

[DrFrank]

"I try to do anything warm and loving, I will be savagely and ruthlessly punished" has nothing to do with God being cruel but rather with your proximity to extremely cruel and ungodly-like people.You definitely are in need of an environmental change!

[CgRgSm]

Hi, I used to sort of think there was a God, but I changed, too. I am completely unhappy like yourself as of late, but I don't believe in God. I think quite honestly that it is a waste of time to believe in something that we can never prove as long as we live on this Earth. Many things have changed me over the years, one thing being that I would hear some church-goers say "I know God exists" and trying to be thankful for what they have and thinking he has some master plan for everyone. But then I learned about philosophy. No one can prove to me without a doubt in my mind that this "God" exists, nor any other thing exists, really, but that is going to deep for a small response on a forum. I have to say another thing that really changed me was people that would come up to you at random places trying to preach to you and get you to be "saved" on the spot and they'll say "oh, let me just pray with you" and then ask you if you know where you're going when you die. Damn, I don't know where I'm going with this... you just strike so many thoughts in my mind. There is a logical explanation for whatever it is that you're going through. All things (seemingly to me anyway) are simple cause and effect. You may not be seeing the bigger picture.

[sabby]

A gentle reminder to folks, while discussing God or a higher power is fine on the forums, going into a deeper discussion regarding religion may bring your post to being edited for more than a passing mention. Please be aware of this in future posting.

Thanks for understanding!

With Care,
sabby

[kindachaotic]

A persons mental health or life circumstances is not the FAULT of a higher power.

To believe finding fault in a higher power is a cop out or something to blame your situation on.

I struggle also but, it is what it is, tomorrow's another day.

[Menace2Hypocrisy]

I have had circumstances occur that would seem plausibly impossible except for the intervention of a super natural force. So, I have come to believe, that there is a God but that He is imperfect. He actually chooses, for his amusement, to reward savagery and cruelty and punish those who try to do good.

It happens all the time. I see honest, decent people crushed by the fates while dishonest sinister characters thrive. In my own life, things were much better for me when I was alcoholic, loathesome, cruel, and manipulative. Since I gave up booze and that sort of behavior, and I try to do the "right thing" my life has been in ruins emotionally.

I wish I had not been cursed with a conscience. There is no reward for it - because God punishes those of decency and rewards the vicious.

I know many think all the good in their lives are blessings from God and the negative is either their own fault or fate. I think this is the brutal trick played on us all by the higher power.

Actually, when I believe in justice, good, and right, I am always disappointed. But if I accept that if I do good, God will hate and punish me, it helps me somewhat cope with the consequences of trying to do the right thing.

It is inspiring to be able to do the right thing even knowing God will punish you for it.

[kindachaotic]

Well... can we agree to disagree on religion?

I am truly sorry you feel punished by God for anything good.

I am truly sorry you feel punished by anyone for doing good, kind deeds.

I am glad you are still inspired to do good & you say you have a conscience.

Try not to feed into the supernatural force, negative, toxic happenings of life.

Because... if you feed & water a plant, it will grow. See the comparison?

Then again, if you over or under water/fertilize a plant, it may die. That is a human error, nothing to do with religion or super natural forces.

May seem like a silly comparison, just the best I could think of without getting too deep into religion & getting deleted & warned.

Really wish you the best, don't give up.

[dupee1]

God is not cruel. Man is cruel. We hurt each other (sorry to say) all the time. I was also very confused about the religion thing until I figured out that religion itself is man made. Laws, rules, regulations all man made. Talk to God, (I learned a lot from Joyce Meyer) learn and get to know him, build your own relationship with him and stop letting others tell you how you should or should not believe.

[Menace2Hypocrisy]

I had an example of the anger of God toward my being engaged or enjoying the company of family and friends.

If I isolate, whatever things I work on (writing, poker - I do both professionally) go very well. When I relate to other human beings, the results are horrible for others and myself.

Today, I was invited to watch the Super Bowl with my family. I wanted to avoid it but I don't want to alienate my family. Nonetheless, I knew that if I spent time with them, the consequences for both me and them would be bad.

Playing poker before I went over, I lost due to some bad luck. I almost always win when I avoid my family and friends. However, if I have any contact with family and friends on the day I play, I lose. So, of course, I lost.

When I arrived at the family gathering, my brother was not there. I love my brother more than anyone in the world. But he has MS and had an episode so he stayed home alone to watch the game - he was in discomfort so he didn't want any visitors.

I know that had I avoided my family today, I would have won at poker and my brother would not have had an episode and would be able to enjoy his family.

Tomorrow I am having lunch with a friend. I know something bad will happen to me tomorrow. God wants me to always be isolated and alone and punishes me and others if his wishes are not followed.

I sometimes think I should just abandon everyone so that both they and I can thrive.

[Menace2Hypocrisy]

Today I had lunch with a friend. I was careful to go home afterwards and go back to bed for a nap. I awoke and nothing bad happened to him or me. That's the only way I think to keep God from getting mad at me for interacting with others.

Unfortunately, my brother invited me for a weekly dinner with his family. Although I would like to go, every time I do God punishes with some event that hurts others or me. So, I will need to beg off.

I wish I could be honest and tell my family, "Look, God hates me whenever I am near you and punishes you, too" but they would never want to admit that.

[Menace2Hypocrisy]

I went out last night and wished a friend a happy birthday. So, coupled with going to lunch with another friend, I ran into misfortune. So, today, I am spending the day in bed.

Tomorrow, I am promising myself not to interact or be kind to anyone. If I do that, I know God won't punish me and I will have a good day.

[venusss]

Why take it on God? You seem to have this social anxiety, fear of interaction... and you put it on God.

Sure, dealing with people is hard. Many of us have the problem. But you seem almost obsesivelly insist on punish yourself (it's not Gods work) by staying out of life... for whatever reason. I don't know you.

Nothing is going to happen if you interact people... and if thing happen, well, it's mostly coincidence, sometimes a screw up on one side.... but I doubt God has anything to do with it. There's bigger trouble in the world and God(s) don't seem to care... why would they care if you interact with people?

[Trippin2.0]

I'm sorry you feel this way, but I honestly don't see any correllation between you losing a poker game and God hating you
How did you ever get to that conclusion, sorry, I'm trying to do the math, but I can't seem to get to your answer...

Also, you must think God EXTREMELY petty for picking on you in social situations, that could, COULD be pegged down to anxiety or everyday things that happen, or a lack of communication skills. All of which is quite manageable if given the correct tools.

Do you honestly believe that God has nothing better to do, than mess with you? I'm pretty sure He can't be THAT bored.

Look, I've had my ups and downs with God, VERY recently blamed Him for the death of my brother and father, blamed Him for not being able to find a job, and for being bipolar, for punishing me. N0W, not to trivialize something that obviously upsets you, but can you see how I would come to that conclusion? Those were heart renching, life altering experiences, not social awkwardness and having a bad hand at poker...

I have thus 'forgiven' Him, for allowing me to suffer, and I'm working on our relationship, maybe you can too.

If after all these replies, you honestly believe that God's a petty kid bully with an ant farm, I strongly suggest you seek help as you need to be guided to a place of healing.

Best of luck

[notablackbarbie]

The impression i get from your explanation is that you think you are cursed, or a contaminant. Your logic seems to be: you stay away and everything remains ok, you make a point to be with people and somehow you end up polluting the peace with your presence. That logic sounds really sad...and i can relate.
But i dont think the solution is to find out who to blame, wonder who is at fault, or just conclude that you are absolutely powerless. I dont know what the answer is...but do wonder what do you hope / want / need / desire / wish out of life and for yourself so you arent suffering as much with cruelty and misfortune you expect all the time? What could you be focusing on instead...?
Again i can relate and am sorry you are struggling. I also agree with other poster suggestions in hoping you are getting support in real life too, for more care and understanding so you dont have to deal with the guilt / apprehension / pain all the time by yourself. In concluding with my 2 cents, I am truly sorry you seem to be struggling so much...

[Callmebj]

One of the questions I was asked a lot in my CBT therapy was, "Do I think I am being punished"? I think you've settled on it being God as punisher, when maybe it's your own guilt or possibly being punished maybe too often as a child. So you have answered the above question in your first posting; but can you figure out where it's really coming from??

I'm so sorry you feel like this, and hopefully you can get an insight to a better way
of understanding. hugs, bj

[Menace2Hypocrisy]

Venus,

Your diagnosis is completely wrong. I suffer no social anxiety and I don't have any fear of interaction - I have concern about the consequences of interacting.

I have no problem with dealing with people on an interpersonnel level. I was very successful in business as a manager and both my superiors and direct reports had very positive relationships with me. My family and I are very close - they seek out my company all the time.

However, whenever I do connect with people personally when I or they find it enjoyable, some very negative event happens soon afterward or just prior.

I choose to call it an act of God. You don't think it is God. But you cannot know that.

I believe that God is imperfect and cruel. For his amusement, he enjoys seeing suffering. Mine, of course, is not the worst. But I see the direct relationship. When I isolate - no one gets hurt.

It's surprising that your profile reveals an admiration for Kafka. If you have read "The Metamorphosis," I think you'd agree that Kafka sides with me and not you.

[Confusedinomicon]

When you isolate, you are probably not doing anything that can cause something bad to happen. Like, say I stay in bed all day and maybe get up to eat once. The worst that could happen is your bed breaking, you burning your house down, your fridge breaking, the water pipes leaking....

But when you go out to interact with people there is a higher chance for something to go wrong. You can't really control all the variables going on around you.

Something that you can do to prove to yourself that winning and losing is more random than based on interactions with others:

Try keeping an account for everyday you play. How much you won at the end of the night (or loss) and whether or not you interacted with someone. Try recording it for a month or two and see if there is a direct correlation. (And remember correlation does not mean causation.)

[Malyce]

Hm. Let me add to the currently three pages of this notion.

I, as a believer in God, have found out recently how "cruel" God can be. I'd prefer to view it as His sense of humor. Man, can He be funny! Okay, that was sarcasm. There's really nothing funny about it.

Or is there? Isn't it all about our point of views? Isn't it all how we choose to perceive things? It's not like we don't have a decision in this. We do.

It's no like we don't have a decision to feel the way we feel, because we do. It doesn't mean that life doesn't get overwhelming. I'm standing there next to you. Not a single damn one of us who are posting under "depression" because we're happy with where we sit or stand or walk or whatever figure of speech you want to use. Moral of this paragraph: We are not here because we're not happy and we need answers.

I don't expect this post to change minds or lives. It's very clear that most people have made up their minds here, which is what adds to the depression. We figure, "Well, hell. There's no way out and I don't have a choice. And who's to blame for that? 'F' God! He's to blame for this! I can't believe he allowed this to happen!!"

Guess what, folks? That's the joy of freedom of choice, something that the Lord has granted us. And that's not just the Christian God, just so you know. And most of us (including myself) didn't end up where we are because we were making the best of decisions. God allowed me the choice. And I did.

I have always thought of God's freedom like one of those "Choose Your Own Adventure" books. For those of you who recall what those are, you'll know what I'm talking about. If you're too young to know, or maybe too old, then let me tell you what it is.

This book would have a series of choices for you to pick up and take all centered around a certain adventure in life. If you wanted route A, you would flip to page 16. If you wanted route B, you would flip to page 87. What happened was that you chose your own adventure, your own path. You would go through this "adventure" in this novel and you would have a series of decisions. Some of these decisions lead to death and others love, treasure, or whatever the novel was centered around. My favorite was an Indiana Jones type of story.

So, sometimes with the joy of freedom of choice, we end up in the wrong place. It's not always our fault. It's not always the place we saw ourselves going. And sometimes, like the novel, you recognize that you didn't make the right choice and you can turn to pay 87 instead of 16 because we can back up.

Like movies, they had multiple endings.

And here I am typing too much and probably losing people on the topic of discussion: "God is Cruel."

It's all about perception and how we make our journey. I say this, as like the poster, a complete "hypocrite." We have different routes, we can choose our own adventure. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. But like in the novels I don't believe that God doesn't know what is already written. No matter what we choose, he already knows what's ahead, but that doesn't mean it's the right choice, but God is never caught off guard. He is the writer of our adventure, and we choose which route we go, with multiple answers.

God is never caught off guard. He doesn't go, "Oh, whoops! I didn't mean for that to happen!" At least, my God doesn't. That's why I don't believe in coincidences. God knows I'm flipping to page 87 before I do.

So, you know what? God may be cruel. I'm not here to say He's not. I'm here to say that through my dying faith these are the threads I hold on to. That we're not perfect, and I don't think that God expects us to always trust and endear.

But here's what the true question really is: If you're an atheist and God is so f'n cruel, then why choose to question that, to supposedly to you, He doesn't exist? If He doesn't exist, then how is he cruel?

My advice, for what it's worth: You obviously hold onto some type of faith and you need it. You crave it. You're just angry right now it seems, and that's okay. But I would tell you to find someone who helps you with the faith that you have, no matter how little or big that it is.

You wouldn't be calling God cruel if you didn't believe that He existed.

All my best wishes to all out there.

I'm most certain that how any of us perceive god / religion is directly related to our early (childhood) experiences therewith ...

If a child grows up in a home where they are being horribly traumatized and abused, and their abusers are utilizing god / religion as a reason and excuse, then that child is probably going to grow up afraid of god and thinking god has it in for them ... IF they can even believe at all ...

If a child grows up in a home where they are being loved, nurtured, and properly disciplined (not abused), while being exposed to god / religion in a positive way, then they will more than likely grow up believing that god is good and benevolent ...

At any rate, it saddens me to see those who believe as well as those who don't to continue to abuse one another while trying to sort it all out ... quite possibly, I might add, to the point of retraumatizing one another in the process ...

Nothing good (or healing) will ever come from any of that ... Absolutely Nothing ...

Sincerely,
BrokenCloud

[Menace2Hypocrisy]

I have always found it curious that those who blame God are deemed irrational yet those who praise His benevolence are not. Both are beliefs. There is no objective truth in the world - we all construct in our own minds rationales for how things happen.

If there is a perfect God who can do anything, then my brother remains in a wheelchair and God is not willing to help. It is God's will my brother remain in that chair.

Yesterday, I had a very successful day and encountered no negativity. This, in my view, was accomplished because I followed God's will - I did not interact with friends or family. Whenever I do interact with them, there is almost always some negative consequence.

For years, I abused alcohol but I have now been sober for 13 years. During my drinking days, I was alienated from my father and younger brother. Since I have recovered, we have become very close. They have been beset by tragedy and tragedy since I returned to their lives. And, now, both are dying. I get the message.

Had I not come back to the fold, I am fairly confident my brother would still be walking. I have been made ugly both inside and out - and I think the message of God is to basically stay away from people.

I do have trouble accepting that because I do love my friends and family. But I know that it is what God wants - just as he wants my brother to remain in that chair. I do not know or understand why, but I have seen it happen.

My problem is not that I don't love my family and friends and am not rationalizing some excuse to stay away from them. My problem is I want to be with them but by doing so I and they are punished.

That is what I consider to be cruel.

[Confusedinomicon]

You cannot stop diseases from occurring.

You cannot stop people from aging, and from their bodies deteriorating.

They would be experiencing the ailments regardless of your choice. Early choices in your life may have caused added stress in their lives, but they chose to be there for you.

I don't have a problem with your views. I think there is an issue that you are attributing their hurt to yourself completely. Everyone is going to get sick and die eventually. That is the reality of life.