[Wants2Fly]

Well, one of my erstwhile "beaus" says that he has "written me off" because I told him I just wanted to be pals, but then used the word "date" to refer to our meeting at an ice cream parlor tomorrow, and that I'm therefore giving him "mixed signals."

I haven't gone out with men in more than 16 years. Back story: I went out on my first "date" in 16 years to meet a man in a coffee shop with whom I'd struck up an online acquaintance. Man 2 came up to our table when we talking, exchanged #s, etc. Last week, started calling, emailing. We had a nice phone conversation. Made plans to meet for ice cream tomorrow.

2 more phone calls that I did not return. I explained in an email (truthfully) that (a) my cell phone had been turned off and (b) I had to work that evening and was suffering from lupus-related fatigue. Thought he might not like the boundaries.

Like many of us, he is struggling in life -- no steady work, not even a car.

Having to monitor my vocabulary before we've even gotten to know each other is too stressful for me. But it is very hard not to internalize this as "I'm a loser who doesn't know how to get along in life" instead of "His problem, don't make it mine."

Feedback from anyone?

[dexter]

>>Having to monitor my vocabulary before we've even gotten to know each other is too stressful for me.

Just want to acknowledge that you are right, this is his problem. If you were feeling well, you would have the option of trying to work with him being careful of your wording (and even then you might decide you preferred someone who you could be more free with) but if it is causing you stress than there is no reason to try to live with that stress.

It causes him stress to hear those things, it causes you stress to have to try not to say them. His stress is not more important than your stress. It is nice to help others but your responsibility is to take care of yourself. His responsibility is to take care of himself.

That is not to say this can't work out. If you can be open and honest you might be able to find a spot to be supportive of each other that benefits both of you, rather than a spot where both of you are so worried about taking care of the other that you are draining each other's energy. You may or may not be in a place yourself to be in a relationship like that.

There is nothing wrong with looking for someone who is "less maintenance". That may sound contradictory because we also want the people in our lives to be supportive of us. But I've said elsewhere that it is up to those people to discover and set and let you know their own boundries, and be honest with us, and help us where they can, but not to feel obligated to the point where they resent it. This is the same thing with you on the other side. If right now dealing with that stress is going to be hurtful then you should not try to force it. That is your boundry right now. We are all better able to give support when we are strong and well ourselves.

The situation you DON'T want to be in is someone who supports you but then uses that to manipulate you into feeling guilty for it. If there is a question of that, run to the nearest exit <g>.

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--http://www.idexter.com

[lenjan]

Yeah...what Dex said. :-) Especially the last paragraph. I have run into people with whom I was honest about things who then, when they got pissed off at me, used those things against me. It used to bother me. Now I just go tell them to do something physiologically impossible to themselves :-) and move on.

If being a loser means you can't handle a "romantic relationship" while you're sorting out your own emotional health, I'm banging on the clubhouse door, dear, let me in! I was engaged 11 or 12 years ago. Six weeks before the wedding, literally as I was walking out the door to mail the invitations, the phone rang.

Yup, you guessed it -- the little (insert expletive of your choice here) didn't even have the cojones to break up with me in PERSON. No, he dumped me OVER THE PHONE, SIX WEEKS BEFORE THE WEDDING.

Wait -- it gets better. About a year later, he tracked me down....AND INVITED ME TO HIS WEDDING.

I told him to go do something physiologically impossible to himself ;-), and then I had a just-us-girls, men-suck sleepover party on the day of his wedding. We sat in our pj's and ate ice cream out of the cartons and griped about men. It was the most fitting thing I could think of.

Anyway, I haven't had a "relationship" since then. I haven't even gone out with anyone more than twice, since then. I am too busy dealing with my depression....and PTSD....and anxiety....and all that stuff to be ready to handle a relationship. It pisses off my mother, but I'm fine with it.

So, if that makes me a loser, .... scoot over on that clubhouse bench so I can take a seat next to you! :-)

Hugs,

Candy

Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal. -- Albert Camus

[Wants2Fly]

Candybear -- The man I lived with for 15 years *called from California* to our home in Florida to tell me it was over. Bec. he said, I was "forcing him into a relationship he didn't want" bec. I asked if he'd marry me if I didn't find another job soon enough, so he could put me on his health insurance. SoI could afford expensive tests that monitor for kidney failure and can potentially save my life.

He couldn't have run father unless he fell off the edge of the continent. Message: I'd rather that you die than be married to you. After 15 years. And finances so intertwined it took a lawyer anyway to make things legal.

Fast answer to iDexter: After what happened with Paul, therapists tell me I may love again but may never trust a partner completely again. Life is complicated enough without a high-maintenance from the get-go. There's plenty of time for helping each other thru rough spots after the bonds have formed.

[dexter]

>>I had a just-us-girls, men-suck sleepover party on the day of his wedding. We sat in our pj's and ate ice cream out of the cartons and griped about men.

That sounds like so much fun, such a good idea. If only we could turn all of our life's stresses into parties... not many people would have had the foresight and ability to plan one like you had either. Great move! (PS What kind of ice cream? Inquiring minds want to know... )

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--http://www.idexter.com

[Wants2Fly]

This rejection -- being "written off" -- because I used a loaded word "dated" -- has affected me so much. I went to sleep for 12 hours. I want to run away from New Orleans -- I want to feel safe -- but I have no place to run to where I can feel safe -- no offers from family or friends of a place to stay until I get back on my feet, financially and emotionally. I am back in the dungeon.

[Wants2Fly]

I just an email from L. In our very, very brief conversation yesterday, he started talking about how things aren't working out for him in New Orleans, and he sounded down, so I asked if he were depressed (being that is a lot on my mind). He ignored the question in a very pointed and deliberate way, and I didn't pursue it, since I don't really know him, and it's a tricky disclosure issue.

In the email, he accuses me of being "judgmental" for asking if he was depressed. So that's two words that are triggers for him -- date and depression. I honestly thought I was being caring and concerned to ask, in the context of what he was saying and the tone of his voice. Because my family is so totally ignorant about depression and treats it as a character flaw, I assume L was insulted because he shares this social stereotype of depressed as "bad" and "your own fault."

So, after knowing this guy about a half hour (met him in a coffee shop when I was with someone else, a half-hour phone conversation that was nice), I'm already walking on linguistic eggshells.

It's very tempting to email back -- seems to me you're the one who is being judgmental. I have to pick and choose every word to fit your ideas about the world. But that would only perpetuate what has become a very negative and hurtful encounter for me. So I've deleted all his emails, so I don't get into a rage in the dark of night, and pop off some incendiary message. He's written me off, and I've wiped his email record clean. Hopefully, this will be the end of the story, some nice little gesture from someone else will raise my spirits, and I will get back on an up-from-depression path again.

I know I'm ranting. Better there than a lotta other places.

[Wants2Fly]

Oh, yeah, and on the way back from an afternoon out yesterday, the engine light came on, and I have to worry about how much this is gonna cost for 3 days, until the auto repair shops open on Tuesday. Probably a catalytic converter. I already need tires totaling $650 and the car slides on the rain -- and there's a lot of tropical afternoon rain here.

For those of you who don't have cars, and wish you did, and wish you had the problem of car repairs for cope with, I apologize for being a spoiled brat.

[dexter]

Sounds like you have written him off. Good for you. As I was reading I was thinking of ways to reply but you covered them ALL by the time I got to the end of your post.

Especially the deal with the "depressed" comment... if he thinks that is a judgemental, i.e. derogatory term, is he going to just be another that judges you for that character flaw?

I love your imagined response. I would not have the willpower to keep from sending it in a ranting email. The fact that you recognize that just letting it drop is best for your own sanity is something to be very proud of.

The more I read about this the more I can confirm that you are in no way a "loser". You've just got some really unhealthy and negative people nearby, maybe your depression makes them stand out more from anything that might be positive in your life, but the people you describe do sound like downers.

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--http://www.idexter.com

[dexter]

>>I apologize for being a spoiled brat.

I think and hope that people understand that you can't put things on a scale that way. I have been very worried about losing my house and I have felt comfortable posting about it, but I also realize that many people would love to have their own home "to lose" but I'm never gotten that kind of "vibe" from anyone here.

Whatever is bad for you, there are always going to be people worse off that are happy and people that are better off and yet miserable. The only thing really important in that context is what you hold dear and how it effects you. No one else feels your personal sense of loss.

So I whine about my house and worry about people who are struggling to find shelter... and on the other hand I feel your pain of your family not being willing to take you in if you are kicked out, and yet I might wish that I had family to go to if I lose my home. If I'm out, I've got no one to even beg to, no one who might take pity on my and change their mind last minute. Which is not to say that your worry isn't of great concern, just pointing out that if we had to watch our language for triggering others with "worse" problems, no one would be able to post anything here at all .

You are doing well and coping. Hang in.

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--http://www.idexter.com

[lenjan]

Yeah. What Dex said. Again. :-) (Sorry -- I've been busy entertaining my mother and 2 sisters all weekend and only sporadically get a chance to get here, so it's likely that someone else will come up with my ideas first!)

I think it's commendable that you bit your tongue, as it were, and didn't let that jerk have it. Deleting his emails was a great idea, but man -- I'd have had to flame him before letting it go ;-). Good for you for being more mature than that.

I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with jerky men. That's why I've written off straight men. :-) Every single one of my male friends is gay, and they're much more human.

BTW Dex, at my men-are-pigs party, I served assorted flavors of Ben and Jerry's and Haagen-Daz. Remove top, insert spoon, GO! :-)

Candy

Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal. -- Albert Camus

[Wants2Fly]

Thanks for the great posts, Dexter and Candybear. I am starting to cheer up a bit. Getting perspective by reading what other people say.

I appreciate very much your compliments about my self control about not letting lose with some criticism of my own. I am preening with pride at these compliments. Makes me feel better about myself, for sure.

[SeptemberMorn]

This reply is strictly to your subject line. It's a reminder that depression is a liar and maybe it's doing it's nasty job of convincing you, but you are NOT a loser.

I posted to candybear, I think it was about her opinion of herself. If you want, read it and apply it to yourself. Neither one of you are losers.

[SeptemberMorn]

"His problem, don't make it mine."

You bet!! I'm with you all the way on that one! You've got enough on your plate without taking on someone else's problems. Like I tell a very young friend of mine, "Reach for the stars. Don't settle for mediocre."

[Wants2Fly]

So this morning I got a phone call from L -- I happened to be just awaking, so thankfully I let voice mail answer. He's sorry about the way he acted; he's noticed that he's engaging in self-defeating behaviours, never expected to find himself broke and jobless and back in New Orleans at age 50. Can he have a second chance?

My feeling is "No." I spent my entire childhood trying to please a capricious mother, and the man I married when I was young was similar -- pouting and giving me the silent treatment, and refusing to tell me what I'd done wrong.

My T said I should be careful bec. when we're in a slump, we tend to attract other people who are not positive and healthy, either. I feel for L, I truly do, and I hate to tell someone who's down, "No, you can't have a second chance."

But I'm not seeing how this would be good for me, when I feel as if I'm walking on eggshells with him and have to watch every word I use. Or, for that matter, if my vocabulary contains so many trigger words, for L.

Any thoughts?

[lenjan]

Go with your instincts. Personally, I'd tell him to go do something physiologically impossible to himself, and invite some girlfriends over for ice cream. :-)

Your T is right. When I was first dx'd and really struggling with SI, I hung out around a bunch of others who did the same thing. Couldn't possibly have been a dumber move. It's very healthy that you realize that L is bad for you -- don't even think about feeling guilty for telling him NO. Just tell him "too bad, so sad, your loss, hasta la byebye, and don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out." :-)

You can do it! You're stronger than he is now.

Candy

[SeptemberMorn]

Hey... from personal experience... I was married to a very controlling man a long, long time ago. When the time came that I couldn't take it anymore, I showed him the door. He tried everything to get back from breaking and entering my home, to bending over backwards to try and make me happy to threatening to commit suicide. It was tough as heck but I told him all that I could do was get him an appointment with a therapist. I did, he went and stopped begging. However, it did take another couple of years to make him stop playing control games with me. By then, I was an expert at calling his bluff. Thirty-two years later, we still share two grown kids and four grandkids. We barely acknowledge each other when we're at one of the kids houses and life goes on quite nicely, thank you. There are happy endings.

Remember, I was married to this man for 12 years. You aren't even married to "L," are you? It should be a whole lot easier. You just have to keep in mind what's best for YOU. His problems are his own to deal with.

Best to you!

[ktp]

I agree. Go with your gut. Things are complicated enough without having to sacrifice yourself and YOUR well-being for someone else's whims. That's my view on it anyway. You'll make the right decision for you. Best of luck !!!

Take Care.

[dexter]

instinct

instinct

instinct.

If that fails, go with your gut.

[tuneyluna]

In the early 70s there was a saying amongst feminists: A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.

I would amend that to include anyone without someone who is bad for them is like a fish without a bicycle. And you know how much fish need bicycles!

You may be amazed at how much better you feel without him after you work through all the the attendant breaking up stuff. I have been repeatedly amazed that way to the point that I can finally pretty much see the yoyos coming and take evasive action.

Best to you.

[Wants2Fly]

It's not even "breaking up" or anything like that. We DON"T HAVE a "relationship." L approached me in a coffee shop, followed up with a phone call and some emails -- and before we could meet for ice cream last weekend, I was offending him by using words such as "date" (oh, horror of horrors, a man and a woman having ice cream together) and "depression." I've written a nice email to say "Nope" but I'm not even sure if I need to bother sending it or if silence is the best response.

[tuneyluna]

Sorry- I got tangled up in the thread over the course of the days. I was thinking it was your longterm relationship calling to say he was rethinking things. I have trouble keeping those initials straight. My bad, my apologies.

[hamstergirl]

Wants2Fly, I say go with your instincts. If your mental health can't handle editing your vocubulary, then dump this guy. Your mental health is far more important than any man and this guy smells like trouble.

I myself have never had a serious relationship with a man, too scary for me. If the person I am with doesn't understand this, then he is not worth having around.

Part of a relationship is respecting your partner's fears and if that respect leads to the end of a relationship, so be it. There are plenty of other fish in the sea and the man should be mature enough to take it without cursing you out for it.

Richard wasn't. He was a man I barely knew. We met at church and he invited me out for pizza one time to express his sexual interest in me. Sex was all he cared about and he was saying other things like "God wanted me to go out with men." (Convenient! Maybe God wants me to become a nun.) He tracked me down in the street to make several inappropriate comments. When I ran from him, or tried to avoid him, he cursed at me.

He apologized to me for it with a teddy bear when he learned about my chronic pain from a blabbermouth parishioner. (I had been running from him for over a year at this point). He said he loved me. Something seemed not quite right with him, but I told myself I was overreacting, but when Father Lindsay said that this guy sounded like he had problems, I stood him up before a second pizza meeting.

He had a talk with Richard, told him that I was under enough stress already and that if he didn't leave me alone, the authorities would be notified. Richard didn't quite get it.

Then I learned from someone else that Richard had pulled this same sort of thing with another woman and that he did indeed have problems. I recently heard he was being kicked out of a church meditation group as a direct result of his antics.

I never said a word to the group leader about my problem. It only leaked out to the parish priest when I went to Doug and he e-mailed him. But word travels fast in that church, even though it seats hundreds.

I never had any intentions of having sex with Richard. Sex repulses me, though I am getting to the stage where I wouldn't mind being held. But Richard thought you take someone out for lunch, you have sex with them.

If Doug operated like that when he came in August, he'd be guilty of adultery!

In short, listen to your instincts. And not being with a man does NOT make you a loser. I've had to tell myself this many times.

[Wants2Fly]

I ended up by sending L a carefully-worded email saying that I didn't see the point of taking our acquantanceship any further and that I might not stay in New Orleans much longer anyway. With Hurricane Ivan approaching, the mayor has told us to "get to higher ground" since New Orleans is below sea level, so I may be leaving even sooner than I thought! If I can find a Sufi to put me up in Austin for a few days, I will look for a roommate situation there and try out Austin for October, at least.

So I can retire this thread.