[StingInTheTail]

Hi all,
I realise this may be the more appropriate place for my post - I've just posted this in the Relationships & Communication section as well.

I've posted here before about my depressed husband who moved out 4 months ago. I am dealing with this quite well, but just want to check what people think is the best way to get oneself 'healed' and move on, while at the same time staying open to possibilities of reconciliation.

Here's a brief summary of the situation:

My husband of over 12 years and I spent the best part of a year fighting before we separated. The main issues, which I now see more clearly than before (of course, with the excellent vision of hind-sight), were his needing to 'find himself' at long long last, deal with some issues, and my stopping being the understanding and patient one in the relationship andp putting myself second. This is a dynamic that developed over years and we were both dealing with things in an unhealthy way; meaning simply that neither of us was very good at expressing our own needs or being very independent of the other. I think that for me, resentments developed, understandably, but that I had also become used to using his issues as a handy way to avoid my own.

The separation was very hard for me, at first. He had nothing to say except that we couldn't go on as we were and he knew nothing about what he wanted in the future, but he did know that he loved me. To my way of thinking, this was a betrayal and a refusal to deal with things. I had been jealous and unfair and very combative for many months, and the more I pushed him the firmer he became in his conviction that there was no way forward in the relationship.

The space of being separated has done us both good. I have remembered what a strong, fun, and self-sufficient person I am while also learning to rely on friends for more support. I really feel I've grown and am enjoying my life now in ways I hadn't for years. He has finally decided to get counselling, after years of talking about it, and is making progress in his own way.

What I find confusing, still, is where we are going with this. He did say very recently, for the first time, that he could imagine us talking to someone together about us, ie marriage counselling. I agree that he has to 'sort' himself out a little more first, to see the wood for the trees, so to speak.

Here is the part I am hoping for help with: I find that my way of dealing with this whole thing has been to look to myself, to make myself stronger and more easy with being vulnerable too. I try to stay positive and keep any nostalgic thoughts at bay. I try to not think 'at this stage in my life' (I am in my late '30s) I should be doing this or that or have this or that kind of a reciprocal relationship. I try to expect nothing in particular from him, and be gracious and more or less honest towards and about what he is able to give.

We are in daily contact by telephone, but I try not to see him more than once or twice a week as it seems strange to be in touch talking about ordinary things as though we are just two people with common interests and not two people who have shared so much of each other's lives.

I feel as if something I have always cherished is being forced into a past that must not matter to me anymore. I think this is necessary in the short-term, but I wonder about the long-term effect.

I wonder if we are losing each other, if I am losing interest in re-gaining each other because I am beginning to think he is someone who will never be there in the way I would need him to be. Someone who will always be less ready to be really involved because he feels tremendous pressure to put things right and guilt if he cannot. I realise this is his problem more than mine.

I have to work this out in my own head, because talking about it is fraught and difficult and I am reluctant to try and make sense of things because in the not so recent past I tried very hard and was just pushy. He has been very evasive for months, but is now beginning to open up a little.

I guess there is progress but it is very slow and meanwhile life has to go on.
I feel a little as if I have always known what needs to be done and have waited for him to do it, and put myself on hold in the hope that my love and understanding would eventually fix him. And eventually it didn't but made me angry and impatient.

If I have one question it is this: It's clear that couples counselling is the solution. But what if it takes him another 6 months or longer to be ready to even try. What do I do in the meantime? I am looking into counselling for myself. I feel as if I could just make a decision to stop all this and let it go and that would be it. Perhaps I'm wrong and it wouldn't be that simple at all. There is no structure to this separation, no time limit, no plan of action, not even the expressed hope of a certain kind of result. So it makes it confusing and weird for me to 'understand' the mind processes of someone I feel I've always understood extremely well but now I don't feel like or trust my own understanding and want him to say something clearly.

That wasn't a question. Sorry, I'll try again: maybe my question is still far too vague to myself. Maybe it's: how far away can I allow myself to go in my mind, not to speak of my body, before I've gone too far to come back?

Does that make sense?

[sunrise]

Sting, sounds like a rough time for you now and you are having some grief over the potentially lost relationship. It is so hard to think of the end of a relationship, even if it hs been less than perfect. It has been 12 years of both of your lives.

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I have remembered what a strong, fun, and self-sufficient person I am while also learning to rely on friends for more support

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">That is great. Sounds very healthy.

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I am beginning to think he is someone who will never be there in the way I would need him to be

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">It is good that you know what you need. Have you told him what you need from him? That gives him a chance to try to give you that or to tell you he is incapable, will never be able to, etc. But at least you gave him the chance. Is your marriage of 12 years worth doing this for?

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I feel a little as if I have always known what needs to be done and have waited for him to do it

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Does he know this? Did you ever share with him what you felt needed to be done? Maybe he had no idea you were waiting....

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He did say very recently, for the first time, that he could imagine us talking to someone together about us, ie marriage counselling. I agree that he has to 'sort' himself out a little more first...

It's clear that couples counselling is the solution. But what if it takes him another 6 months or longer to be ready to even try. What do I do in the meantime?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">It sounds like he proposed marriage counseling to you but you declined because you felt he needed more time with his individual counseling? Why not just start with marriage counseling now? It sounds like you are afraid the marriage is slipping away and may soon cross the point of no return. What have you got to lose? It sounds like he is ready to try couples counseling now. Take him up on his offer and go with him.

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but now I don't feel like or trust my own understanding and want him to say something clearly.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Can you tell him that you need this from him?

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I am looking into counselling for myself

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I think you could use that support right now.

In couples counseling, you will spend some time on communication, including how to tell each other your needs and how to listen. Any couple can really benefit from this.

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how far away can I allow myself to go in my mind, not to speak of my body, before I've gone too far to come back?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">The answer is different for everyone. Can you share your fears with your husband on this?

Good luck.

[StingInTheTail]

Thank you Sunrise.

I haven't said those things, not recently and not in that way. I spent a year saying more or less that, but in an angry and demanding way until we eventually reached the point of feeling we were not able to understand or fulfill each other at all.

I told him recently that I wasn't sure if I felt like trying to fix things, I said it thoughtfully, wonderingly. I was almost thinking out loud, instead of actually trying to communicate something to him and thinking about the best way to phrase things. He surprised me by reacting (I've gotten used to a mysterious silence) and he asked 'why everything is a threat' with me. To which I said, 'what, a threat? It's not a threat! What do I have to threaten you with?'

It was strange, because the first sign in months (a real, unchecked emotion and reaction from him) that he cared one way or another what would happen to us in the future. It's bizarre. I really don't know what he is thinking. And I have asked him. And received the response that he has to work himself out first. He seems to expect us to be able to go away to our respective caves and work on ourselves, while 'keeping in touch' in the way friends would, and then, maybe, at some point, come together again and work on us. He has never verbalised this, no matter how I have asked him, so I can only assume that's what he thinks.

Anyway, we've had a couple of conversations recently in which I was able to speak more calmly, without anger. But I do feel he has trouble taking things in, I feel he is completely wrapped up in himself and doesn't have room for anything/anyone else in there. I said this too.
As usual, he didn't say much.

I am getting tired of trying to work him out! Maybe that's my ultimate point. I have always been engaged in working him out. I am angry about that. At myself too.

His biggest fear, he says, has always been of disappointing me. There are so many things wrong with that it's hard to know where to start. But he has disappointed me, hugely.

At some point he seemed to give up and wonder if we were compatible at all. Because I demanded that he be clear, which I had never done before.

When I begin to think about this really, I do see that I still have a lot of anger. I wonder if it is resolvable. Or if I wouldn't just be better letting it go. I think I know how to do that now. You just forget someone, put them out of your mind and fill it up with other things.

I know couples counseling would help, even to make a clean break it would be good. But isn't couples counseling also possibly unnecessary pain? Why go over all that again? There are so many changes we'd both need to make and he has so far to go before he is even at the relatively embryonic stage of self-understanding that I've reached.

Sorry, this is a bit all over the place. I would try to make this more logical and restrained but that would just mean having to do the work on another piece of paper first. I hope ya'll don't mind I do my thinking here, in front of everyone.

Hey, thanks, invisible kindhearted people.

[StingInTheTail]

Come on guys! Please, someone give me some wisdom or insights or experiences!

I know my posts are long and lots of stuff to wade through. I'm working on getting a counselor, but it takes time to find someone available over the summer (they all seem to take a month off, lucky things) and until then I have only my own head and the heads of friends. Friends are great, but they are not trained to listen and pick things apart. They do what friends do, mumble encouragement, vent their own frustration, give hugs, all of which is lovely but not sadly not enough at this stage.

If I were ready to hear the response to my ending it I would probably end it. Some part of me is afraid of how easy it might be. I know this. Otherwise I wouldn't be here, would I?

I threw away some pictures the other day. I was cleaning, in preparation for sharing the place I live in with someone. To save on rent. Not unheard of, of course, and not without it's charms probably, but somehow final nonetheless. Not that it makes anything final in itself, but still. Anyway, I threw away some pictures. I have an enormous box of them in storage and was thinking how easy it would be to throw them all away. And the negatives too. So all those years would just be gone for good.

I don't know if I'm hanging on to artifacts that represent something, the importance of history for instance, or if I am keeping the memories for my old age. I don't know what I'm doing at all.

And my idiot so-called husband has no idea of any of it, because I couldn't tell him without being angry about his ineffectualness and blaming him for all this.

Perhaps I stopped loving him a long time ago and didn't even realise it.

How do you know if you love someone? How do you know what you want or need? How do you know what is fair to expect of someone else?

I thought I knew all this once, and now have no idea.

[gordian_knot]

Love is fluid and hard to measure. It ebbs and flows throughout the lifetime of a relationship and it's unpredictable and hard to define. So stop driving yourself crazy trying so hard to define your love for him. Accept that you can't, not really. Instead, measure the things you can, and set the boundaries for the things that you can control.

You can control... you. You know what's reasonable and rational. You can make decisions that are right for you, knowing at the same time that they're fair and reasonable where your husband is concerned.

In other words, Sting, you've gotta stop trying to, as you put it, "work him out". There are two things you clearly know and believe: first, you still have some hope for your relationship, because if you didn't, you wouldn't have posted on this board at all. Second, you think that couples' counselling is the best, maybe the only, chance for you both to find out how much hope there really is for your future.

Those two things are concrete, definable beliefs that you have. So act on those beliefs, not out of indefinable love. Don't overthink it. You know your situation can't continue, and you know the path you believe you both must take to change it. You are willing. Now you need to find out if he is, too.

And not in six months. This month.

[sunrise]

Sting, you've indicated you are unable to talk to your husband about certain things. You have a lot going on that is important for him to know but yet you can't/don't tell him. Couples counseling will help tremendously with communication between you. I urge you to start couples counseling right away. You said he has suggested this but that you wanted to wait until he had had more individual counseling. Do not wait! He wants to do it, so go. Open up the communication between you so that both of you can let the other one know where they are at. Maybe you or he doesn't know for sure. It's OK! Start talking. The counselor/therapist will help you.

It is so important to learn to state your needs to each other. And if the other one can or wants to fulfill some of those needs, then bingo, there is hope! You say his biggest fear is that he will disappoint you. So his great need is for you to not be disappointed. Are you disappointed? If not, tell him so! He needs that. If you are disappointed, let him know what he can do so you won't be disappointed. If you can't talk about those things, then see, you need a couples counselor!

[StingInTheTail]

Hi guys,

Thank you. I hear what you are both saying. Sure. Couples counseling, now. Sunrise, I have to clarify that my husband said that he could imagine talking to someone together in response to my asking him if he could imagine it. That's all. It wasn't his idea, it wasn't an invitation. If he had extended such an offer I would have jumped at it.

He is in a period of fragility, total fragility. I cannot bring myself to impose on him (still protecting him so I am), to reveal myself to someone who I feel barely sees me, nor can I bring myself to risk getting angry and frustrated with him by talking about it and seeing a lack of response. It's all very delicate.

I can't even tell him what I just wrote above. No, wait, I think I have said it, actually, and quite clearly too, but because there was no response and no real reaction to it, it feels as if it never happened.
Oh, that sounds scary.
Maybe that's why I am better off putting him out of my mind entirely. When I start thinking about it I feel as if I will never get anywhere with it. That's what was worrying me originally, a few days ago when I posted. I was worrying that I was leaving in my mind and wondering how far I would go before I couldn't go back.

You're right, Gordian, this situation can't continue. Not indefinitley. No. When I just think about him and me, like two individuals floating in an indistinct world, I think it will take as long as it takes and nothing can hurt either of us and nothing else matters except for what we need and want. When I start thinking about two individuals in a not so indistinct world, but the one with jobs and rents and social occasions and holidays and experiences to have, then it becomes more pressing.

Imagine, he has no idea, none whatsoever, what I am doing now. He has no idea I am writing this, these words, or having these thoughts, or that there are people on the other side of the world who don't know me who are lending an ear and their experiences. He has no idea how this happened or how it feels or how interesting it is.

You're right, Sunrise, he needs to know what he can do to not disappoint me. You're right that I would find it hard to tell him. Mainly because of the fear I've always had: that it would be too much for him, that he would feel overwhelmed and incapable.

You guys are great. Thank you for, everything.

[StingInTheTail]

Oh, with all that waffling I forgot to say the obvious. I am afraid to bring up the counseling again because:

A) I am worried he is just too weak at the moment. For the past 5 months there has always been something wrong with him; a bad flu, depression, exhaustion, too much to do at work, etc etc. I feel as if there is just too much going on to force yet another thing on him to deal with. I feel as if he needs to realise that if he has too much on his plate it's because HE is putting it there himself. I am not around to give him chores or complications of any description, so if he's up the walls it's totally his own doing. Realising all this and blah blah blah takes time. How would I know how much.

B) I don't want to be rejected yet again and in a significant way. I don't want to hear the litany of things that are pressing on him which preclude his giving this attention at this time. I should say that he keeps in far more contact than I do, that he is sweet and caring and practical about it in many ways. Just very limited. If he rejects it, then what do I do? I can't get a straight answer out of the man. I can get only vague responses. I see his confusion, torment even - he's not faking it. Maybe he's more sick than I think. What do I do if he says no?

Sorry, Gordian, I know I am trying to work him out. How can I help it. Mmm, I was going to say you can't force a sick person to get better or even to get treatment, but of course you can.

Did it, in the end, in your situation, really come down to what YOU needed? Like you said? Just knowing your own limits and stating clearly that they'd been reached? That sounds easy. Why isn't it.

S

[sunrise]

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StingInTheTail said:
Did it, in the end, in your situation, really come down to what YOU needed? Like you said? Just knowing your own limits and stating clearly that they'd been reached? That sounds easy. Why isn't it.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">It's not easy. I'm not good at all at stating my needs. I've been working on that in therapy. For my marriage, I put up with a lot. I was miserable for a long time. When I found out beyond a shadow of a doubt that my H was sleeping around, I told him "this is the end of the road for me." I guess that was my line in the sand. But it still took us 2 more years to separate. It is good to know your line in the sand.

Sting, if you can't do marriage counseling with your H right now, could you start marriage counseling on your own? You don't have to go with a partner.

[StingInTheTail]

Hi Sunrise,

Thank you. Lines in the sand, hmm, yes, it's good to know them which all comes back to knowing yourself doesn't it. I think that's the problem with other people, in a nutshell, they confuse things for each other. I've been thinking recently about how different all this would be if we had children. Would it be easier in some way because having small people dependant on you makes things very clear in some ways. Then again, it would make it even harder to know what I need myself.

I'm kind of sad about not having kids. I only decided about a year ago that I was finally ready to have one. By then things were going pear shaped. It wil soon be too late. I think one of the reasons I didn't want to have one before is because I've always felt I'd then have two kids to look after. Probably a lot of women feel that way, and then it really turns out that way, but somehow it's probably all worth it in the end. All of which is neither here nor there at the moment.

Anyway, yes I need to get talking to a counselor. That much is clear. I have a couple of appointments next week. I rang a bunch of them, left messages, and then when they got back to me a couple of days later I just went ahead and made appts with two that sounded likely. I'm wondering now how to decide which one to stay with. One of them spent about 15 minutes on the phone with me and talked about a 'transition' phase of my life and mentioned that I might not need that many sessions in response to my worry that she was expensive (€70 an hour). Good point. The other one is cheaper because she works with an organization that subsidises some of her patients. I mean, 'clients'. Will I know from one meeting which one is better for me?

I'm going to do some research on choosing a therapist and how to know which one is right for you.

Thanks for being there.

[sunrise]

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I'm wondering now how to decide which one to stay with.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">I would say an important consideration is their experience at helping people in a similar place as you. A couples therapist/family therapist who also sees people solo might be good. Make sure it is not a marriage counselor who only sees people if they want to put the marriage back together again. There are therapists like that who will work with you and then if you decide you do not want to save the marriage, they drop you. So try to get a couples/family therapist rather than someone who only works with couples on keeping the marriage intact. A couples/family therapist can do that too but has broader scope.

I would be wary of that counselor who over the phone told you it wouldn't take many sessions to help you and then send you on your way. How does she know based on one phone call? Your issues don't sound easy to me at all. This therapist's easy-fix attitude would raise a big red flag to me.

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Will I know from one meeting which one is better for me?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">Probably. You will probably "click" better with one than the other, or one will seem better qualified for your particular issue than the other. Or neither may be what you are looking for. And so you can try someone else.

Is that 70 pounds per hour? (Not sure what that symbol means.) I think that works out to about $150 American dollars, which is in the range of therapists in the U.S. My T charges $125-$175/hr depending on the service. It sure isn't cheap, but it can be so helpful. For myself, I try not to stop and ask myself how much this has cost. But if I do, I think, would I rather be stuck forever in an unhappy situation, or pay a few thousand dollars for help getting out of it and moving forward in my life? My answer is always no regrets, the money's worth it.

[StingInTheTail]

Thanks, Sunrise. I have my first appointment tomorrow. Your insights are helpful - it will give me more of a sense of this being something I'm steering.

Trying to work out one's own head can be surprisingly difficult at times! I hope that she will help me to disentangle some of those thoughts where I can get more of a sense of myself.

Maybe this isn't the right place to ask, but what is 'body work'? In the therapeutic setting, I mean.

[gordian_knot]

That's great, Sting. Good luck!

[StingInTheTail]

Thank you. It was fine. I'm not sure if we 'connected'. I didn't feel a dislike or anything and I did like her attentive gaze and note-taking. She apologized for the notes, but I told her I liked to see her scribbling. It makes me feel taken seriously and ensures she won't ask the same question about whether or not I have siblings - which happened to me the last time I tried therapy, and I found it very off-putting.

I might go to the other one I have scheduled too, just to see. I feel a bit like I'm cheating on them though, how silly. Or maybe I hope that a double dose will help me get there quicker! There's a thought! Go to 2 therapists at the same time and speed things up.

Anyway, it must mean something that I'm happier to navel-gaze than try to fix a relationship by myself.

[CedarS]

I think you are putting yourself down still, this is understandable, but you really do deserve lots of time and focus on you. This does not mean you are guilty or doing things wrong or somehow not compassionate.

I believe it really is fine if you decide you don't want to wait for anyone else to change and grow. You can focus on your own well being for now.

I was struck by what you wrote about having children and feeling that if you did, you would have two kids, meaning the child and your husband. Oh I so hear you on that one! Exactly what happened to me. I divorced my husband and focused on my child. I'm glad I did so.

If you want children I strongly suggest you find someone who also really wants children and is adult enough, mature enough, and ready for them. You and your possible child deserve that.

Therapy will be very helpful.

[StingInTheTail]

Oh, thanks Cedar. I don't know where you came from, but welcome to my world.

You think I'm putting myself down? Really? You get that from my few posts? Well, let me say something; you are right. One interesting thing that transpired in my first session was the image of the Michelin Man, all puffed up with cheerfulness and capability, but essentially full of hot air. The therapist didn't mean it in a derogatory way, nor did I take it that way, but it has made an impression.

I also realised that I am super sensitive to criticism, which I guess I had just forgotten in my puffed up state. I feel that I've been a bad person and that no one could like me, not really, not if they knew what I was really like. Oh crap. I had forgotten this completely! Isn't that hilarious. How is it possible to forget this, to have a totally different reality in which to exist. I am ashamed to even admit it. Even here where I am anonymous.

Here's something yucky: I think I am still looking for an ideal parent! Yucky because it's so obvious to me, suddenly.

What happens? Is realising something half the battle? What's the other half?

Is it really possible to combine all the different parts of oneself? The parts that are barely on speaking terms? The sweet, vulnerable, playful parts and the hardass capable parts and the self-hating parts, and the pathetic parts and on and on and on.

I am my own possible child.