Updates..??

You can put words to how my mind really works in a way nobody else on here does, like holy ****! HA HA HA! But seriously, this is another brilliantly articulated post and I can relate to it SO. DAMN. MUCH.

You have to face all the things you work so hard at hiding Underground, that is hard and you have to find the right therapist you can develop a trust in to do that with.

You have developed a lot of techniques to "avoid" feeling, well, given your history there was no one there that could help you with that, so that is why "empathy" is such a challenge for you and you avoid it. You feel rage because if something bothers you, you will not lower yourself to ask for help, so you end up getting very angry. It sounds like alcohol only frees you up to express anger, that can happen with some people, they can be mean drunks, yet also because they don't have a true relief system, can have other moments of "rage anger" they expell too.

I have been thinking lately about finding a therapist once again. I just have had two of them already and neither was a good fit. With that being said it felt like such a waste of time and it doesn't give me hope for the next. Some tips on finding the right therapist would be appreciated. I was also thinking it may be best to not tell a therapist about my disorder so this way there wouldn't be any pre-judgement. Thoughts on this?

My current therapist actually really knows her stuff. I had to look for someone who specializes in personality disorders, it was worth the searching I did. But before I let her work with me I interviewed her extensively to make sure we were a good fit before I started potentially wasting my time/money.

Funny you wrote that you don't want to tell a potential therapist about your NPD... I used that tactic with my current therapist and it was damn effective. It worked so yeah if you want to try that tactic and know you can pull it off(I know you can, you're smart), then I say go for it! Totally worked for me!

I've had a slew of bad therapists who just didn't want to do their jobs and totally wasted my time. Incompetence rules in psychiatry/psychology (HA HA HA) but competent therapists and psychiatrists exist. You just have to dig for awhile to find them.

Underground, your history is that of "neglect and abuse" and that is what the focus needs to be on the most. Most individuals that struggle with NPD are doing everything they can to hide "shame". The reason they do "not" empathize is because it would mean they have to be in touch with their own personal pain, and that is WAY too hard for them because they never had someone early on that helped them whenever they struggled emotionally.

Often people who struggle with complex PTSD are mislabeled with "narcissism" which ofcourse doesn't give them the help they need, tends to only end up where they are actually "punished" instead. Often these individuals "detach" and avoid others. The typical response to trauma is "avoidance" and there definitely "is" anger involved too.

I think what "you" need to understand is how much of you is "normal" too. It is "normal" to have a kind of work place mask, everyone has that to a certain extent. It is normal to struggle with hurts/challenges from others too. And not having a lot of friends, well, that is actually normal too, friends "are" a lot of work to maintain. Most people have very few people they can actually call "friends", less than a handful, if lucky even just one true friend, so it isn't easy.

You certainly don't need a therapist that is going to be negative towards you, that has been the very thing that made you the way you are.

"Our darkness is what defines us all too often. Being broken is not easy on the mind" quote Underground

See how you define yourself? That is an awful lot to protect from others, it's actually very brave of you to say it like this though too. However, keep in mind Underground, it's hard to just be human to begin with so you are not as alone with the overall challenge as you think.

You have to find and define the triggers that make you angry too. Typically it is a threat of some kind of abandonment. Someone looks at your wife and you don't like it, it's a threat that goes very deep for you. Well, that has something to do with how others disrespected "your things" growing up, so that is a trigger that goes way back.

You know, what is interesting "now" when it comes to psychotherapy is that more study is being done on men and the major challenges they "do" have and many do have problems with "anger management", the percentage of individuals that have NPD "are" men too. Young boys are often told to "just man up" when they begin to feel emotions and get confused by them. Well, that is wrong because instead a child needs to have a presence there that can help them understand these emotions and help them learn to manage them and that feeling emotions is "normal and human". Often where anger comes in when emotions surface is coming from how a parent expressed "anger" when the child struggled emotionally. SO, that is what you learned, why your own children are afraid of coming to you when they are challenged emotionally, you are looking in a mirror when you see them "afraid" to approach you with these challenges. You are handing down your "own" fears, that is all you really "know", what you were taught to do, what you imprinted. That doesn't mean you are "broken" though Underground, truth is you literally just don't "know", no one helped you with that so you can only give what you 'know" how to give.

You are however not "stupid", you did what you had to do in order to survive. You actually "can" learn how to react differently, however, it takes time to do that, but is not impossible.

You know what you are "really" talking about here? You "self sabatoge" because there is a part of you that takes on that role of the parental voice in your mind that needs to "take it away", and then you feel the anger.

Every person you leave behind "hurting" somehow is "you". It's a mirror Underground. And "everyone gets "help" but the Narcissist right? Thats how it was for you at one point, can't beat them so join them. Your rage and anger is how you "run". Yet what you often choose to do is "fight" instead of flight, same thing happens in the mind though, the chemical build up that is meant for "fight or flight", you learned to choose fight. That is what you were taught to do growing up though, not your fault.

A good therapist is not someone you can duel with, but someone who can help you figure out "why" you duel to begin with, it's a puzzle in you that needs solving, identifying, and using your intelligence to manipulate your own reactions into making better choices, something different that you don't have in your repertoire.

I am not tearing you down here Underground, just looking at the challenge itself. It's always a complex puzzle, thing is there is no such thing as a perfect person. I have my puzzle too, we all do, none of us have all the answers or understanding how to work through every challenge we are presented with either.

This is right on the money for NPD defenses. I actually got a bit misty just reading someone else understand it as lucidly. The hopelessness and pain deflection in childhood is a rich vein to mine using a number of therapeutic approaches.

My advice on the therapist (or the limited experience I have jumping through hoops to get the right therapist) is to use the therapist search feature at the Psychology Today site ( https://therapists.psychologytoday.com ) for your area, and try to find someone who lists experience with NPD. What's cool is that you can filter by issues and treatment approach. I suggest someone who works with NPD, and preferably someone who uses Psychoanalytic or Psycho-dynamic therapy.

Those aside, we aren't powerless to affect personal growth. I highly recommend the following books.

This book might be the most practical in terms of a straightforward understanding of how to recognize and disarm ego defenses:

Why Do I Do That?: Psychological Defense Mechanisms and the Hidden Ways They Shape Our Lives – by Joseph Burgo Ph.D.

I also noticed you mentioned anger. Anger is normal (i.e. it doesn't come from nowhere. For example, you may feel disrespected, or misunderstood. Or you may not know where it came from, and its source is repressed guilt or shame that hasn't been processed thoroughly). It's what you do with anger that can be destructive. This is something I used to struggle with more, but was gradually able to work toward healthier outlets with thanks to self-policing and processing tools in the following book:

The Anger Trap: Free Yourself from the Frustrations that Sabotage Your Life by Dr. Les Carter


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Well, I have to admit that I have been hurt by individuals that have been on that higher percentage that you have explained so well. However, I have also seen how it develops too and so I do understand how it's often more about "protection" or defense mechanisms more than purposely just being mean and vindictive. That being said, it still hurts when that strange switch goes off and the Mr Hyde takes over and is directed at me. People that have this about them don't see how their eyes glass over and they become someone else, how often once that does happen, they don't "just" snap out of it either. It's a strange "detachment" that takes place, animals can have it too. And you are right, doctors/lawyers/politicians have it too. Actually if one knows what to look for you can see it when they do it.

I'm so sorry that you experienced that with someone who uses NPD defenses. I genuinely am. I know how dehumanizing it can be. I feel an enduring heartfelt guilt for anyone I've ever criticized or hurt, and profound empathy for victims of abuse.

For whatever solace it might offer I will say that there's a lot of help for the people who want it. And it isn't everyone on this spectrum that ends up doing so much damage. People who use NPD defenses aren't a label in a textbook. We all have a diverse range of empathy, values, philosophy, and motives. Self-awareness, self-policing, and empathy practice can dramatically alter one's behaviors.

At its worst (before becoming self-aware) I can see that many of my previous interactions with people happened through the distorted lens of NPD defenses. I saw people as assets or liabilities. This wouldn't happen initially, but over time, I didn't know what meaning to assign to my classmates, or coworkers. It was just emptiness, because I had used a persona to charm them, and when our growing relationship dynamic needed more than this superficial give and take as it related to 'me', I didn't have anything to offer. I didn't have the requisite empathy and compassion or interest to make it meaningful.

This dysfunction was compounded by perfectionism and criticism. A great way to ensure no one ever gets close is to find their flaws, and people who use NPD defenses are great at finding flaws, because they're master persona architects.

I can gladly say that I haven't abused the girlfriend I'm with now in any overt way (verbal or physical). I've never felt much impulse to. Early on, before becoming self-aware, the abuse was more unintentional, psychological. She felt a distance that I denied, and I kept her at arm's length for a long time. But over the past year I've become more dedicated to closing that divide. I've started learning to love again. After becoming self-aware recently, I spend time each day consciously empathizing with her during Loving-Kindness meditation. It has really changed my perspective, to where I need to know more about her and her experiences than ever before. I know I have a lot of time to make up to her, to be accessible to her. I'm eager for the opportunity.

It's unfortunate that abuse is so cyclical. It's like some virulent strain of a stubborn virus. When it touches one person, that person infects someone else. I firmly believe in the self-help and various therapies I've described for their power to stop this chain reaction. We just need more awareness out there that these are treatable, and there is help. From the limited reading I've done here it sounds like you're doing a great job spreading that awareness.

"I'm so sorry that you experienced that with someone who uses NPD defenses. I genuinely am. I know how dehumanizing it can be. I feel an enduring heartfelt guilt for anyone I've ever criticized or hurt, and profound empathy for victims of abuse." quote CBDMediator

You have no idea how comforting these words are right now. I just got hit bad by NPD defenses from my older sister tonight (she has a big part in my PTSD). I tried so hard to go and visit my mother in a rehabilitation hospital, hoping to see her without my sister being there. All day long I fought through the pain in my arms, my chest and even my face. I got there and thought it was safe, wrong, my sister was in her car and as soon as she saw me got out and was mean to me. I should have fought back, but I just couldn't, I was already in way too much pain, so I left. The pain isn't just psychological anymore, it is physical and so exhausting now.

I completely understand. Sometimes our problems make us feel like we're marooned on an island just outside of the universe. Despite how convinced we may be that we're alone, this is never true. Most of my adoptive, extending, and biological families are no stranger to some history of dysfunction.

Without context, I feel a bit disadvantaged to say more on this, but am I to understand your sister is using NPD defenses to keep you from seeing your mother? If you don't feel comfortable putting light on that, I'll totally understand, but can I ask why she would do that?

I hope you're feeling better. I'll leave you with a quote that I''m now getting a lot of utility out of, “You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.”― Jon Kabat-Zinn

I understand that my coping mechanisms only lead to anger, frustration and hurting others. You see I know that there are many emotions people feel and in the ways they express them is what makes people who they are. Generally people's emotions are one in the same, if one is shy then another one who is the same relates. Just as with all the emotions which are a large group I suppose make them all relatable to people who feel them. I know that if I feel all those emotions my definition of expression is only if my limited coping mechanism. Completely forget when others are feeling them and I'm supposed to understand. I can understand strengths much more than weakness. Not in a sense that people who have colorful feelings are weak, it's just what I'm used to thinking of. Part of my "N" ways which accounts for blurred vision when it comes to these types of things. I also fully understand the mirrors and looking in as me rather that someone as their own. This at times really holds me back, feels as if the weight of the world is carried by me alone. That my mind is a tool that compares to ones who are depressed, underdeveloped, completely nuts and everything i between. Because I have NpD it allows me to transform what one may show as what it is for me to show as an opposite. To take something and not have to speak words to manipulate. To act in a way of just movement that makes me something I am not. I am lucky I guess that I am able to feel for myself because if I didnt I probably would of been a serial killer... Anyways that's it for now. I do appreciate the feedback and to see another with NpD here speaking of things that would make another with the same appreciate. Not an easy task here.

It's nice to see someone posting in this forum that is supportive and has some ideas on repairing and working on improvement rather than feeding into this challenge CBDMediator.

I like your quote about the waves, I have been working very hard on learning to surf, I do fall off and crash from time to time, that is what happens with PTSD so I try very hard not to be hard on myself when a big wave comes that I can't seem to surf. My one constant is YET.

I appreciate your input and I know you can't do much more without the details. I try not to think about what you discribe as NPD defenses in a way where the individual is just considered "evil or bad", even though I have definitely been hurt by these defenses.
I have recognized that there is a great deal of "stress" in the individual that uses these defenses. The "edge" is in reality "being on the edge" so that is a challenging place to be all the time.

Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts, man. I think it's a good idea to pay attention to your thoughts and feelings to keep yourself in check, but there's no utility in judging yourself for any of it. I doubt you need to be reminded of any of this, but it's important to keep in mind:

1.You're someone dealing with some stuff like everyone else. You aren't alone. I read a lot of biographies. I used to think I had this terrible past, and then I hear or read about some highly successful personality with a biography that would make a child from Darfur cry. Hell, even Jon Kabat-Zinn spent his youth fighting on the streets of New York. Now he's a meditation guru. I only mention this, because we're often so internal worrying about the past or future, worrying about "me, me, me, I, I, I." and somewhere there's a kid dying of leukemia. It's all relative.

2. There's no utility in over-judging past events or flaws you're already working on. It's wasted energy. You can put this sack down. You aren't defined by your past mistakes. You aren't defined by any labels. There's only right now, and your goals.

3. Turn your "camera" outward. Allot some time to think about people you care about every day. It builds empathy, while getting you out of that game of kick the can around the brain.

4. When you aren't thinking about others, monitor your thoughts for self-criticism. Is your inner critic just saying whatever it wants to you undefended? As Ralph Waldo Emerson says (famously borrowed from something the ancient Greeks figured out), "A man is what he thinks about all day long." If your mind is fixed on anger, loss and despair all of the time, you start priming your brain for more of the same, and there's a good chance your critical self-talk isn't getting rebutted with more rational and neutral answers.

5. Be open to being vulnerable for or flawed to others, but don't blindly give everyone power over your emotional control center. Establish boundaries. It's a lot of responsibility to give away full access to your emotions. You decide who gets to go in there or not.

I feel like I should get royalties from Kabat-Zinn for how much I plug him, but if you haven't watched it yet, I highly recommend this: