Covert Narcissism

TL;DR - Does anyone else identify with covert narcissism? In what ways? Below is just me rambling about how I identify with it.

I'm not sure if it's one of my many issues or not, but I identify with a lot of what I read about it. I was recently hired onto a job where I was told I wouldn't have to interact with people very much, which to me was perfect, because I really don't like interacting with strangers much at all. But I was quickly thrust into customer service and cashiering, ironically because my manager thought it would be a better fit for me, since I was in a full-blown fake-persona mode from day one due to my usual social anxiety.

But the truth is that it's a horrible, horrible fit for me. I have almost no patience for people, and find myself just feeling extremely anxious and agitated all shift long, every shift. I just seem to be pretty good at coming across like I'm just a bit timid and shy and even sweet-natured, but admittedly that's just my go-to defense and self-control mechanism when I'm secretly fantasizing about slaughtering people.

I've always chalked all this up to social anxiety. But the more I read about covert narcissism, the more it seems to fit the bill. Could be wrong, though.

I have very little desire for friends or to interact socially much at all. I prefer to spend my off-time alone, especially playing online games where my character is powerful, important and attractive. I have been this way pretty much my entire adult life, just bearing through social events and work, desperately waiting to just get home and submerge myself into fantasy land.

I had "social anxiety" from the very beginning of starting this job. I was nervous that in my uniform I look too fat, too ugly, and had anxiety about looking so terrible in front of others. I didn't want anyone to see me, I wanted to just hide in the back of the store.

I also find myself a bit hypersensitive to all the little things about people's body language and expressions. Yesterday I strolled past my manager on my way into the store and gave my usual artificially-sounding chipper "good morning". She looked half-awake and kind of stressed, and barely muttered a reply. I felt an immediate stab of anxiety in my chest and tried to forget it had even just happened. Again, the sort of thing I would always chalk up to social anxiety or BPD sensitivity.

All shift long I have a very hard time interacting with customers. They all seem like stupid, whiny, irrational crybabies to me (I guess ironically, since I am usually secretly wallowing in my own self-pity that I even have to be there). I can hardly stand most of them and wind up having violent thoughts about half of them. It's like a type of angry-anxiety that starts welling up and making it harder and harder for me to even talk. Like I'm gonna snap and go from "shy and sweet" and "homicidal lunatic" in 2 seconds flat if I don't manage to just shut down and go flat.

Like at one point I was stuck on the register with a long line of customers, and some guy came up to me to complain that the sugar canister by the coffee was empty. I was obviously very busy and instantly felt agitated that he was bothering me with such a trivial issue, as there were sugar packets still available. I calmly and politely told him that he could find sugar packets on the other side of the island. He seemed offended and explained that he shouldn't have to use packets, he should be able to use the canister. And heaven help me in that moment I just had an almost overwhelming urge to crack him in the face with my change dispenser.

Basically I've been wondering more and more lately if my "social anxiety" isn't actually a sort of cover narcissism thing. I am finding it increasingly exhausting to keep up my facade as the shy, really nice girl at work, when in reality I really just can't stand having to react to people's ridiculous needs for 8+ hours straight. Customer service is turning out to be like the worst fit for me ever.

I have both social anxiety and narcissistic traits. The narcissistic traits are just part of my DNA from growing up around a lot of it. It's helped me to have become more aware of it (when I was younger I tried to deny it in an effort to differentiate myself from family members) so that it's not operating as a wild card.

But would I define myself as a covert narcissist? There's a quiz here that I tried: Are You an Undercover Narcissist? -- Science of Us and I got the result "kind of a covert narcissist" and "kind of self-centered" which was not an entirely unsurprising result knowing my traits. However, I don't really think that it's accurate to suggest that it's covert for me at this point.

While it's not audaciously on the surface, or happening in extreme ways, I'm also not denying it; hence there's no covert action involved. I'm sort of oddly honest about it, these days, about when and how I'm being narcissistic, which I find freeing both for myself and for those whom I share that sort of thing with. Talking about it here also helped: realizing ways in which I was still demonizing some the traits because of my experiences with family enabled me to stop demonizing the traits within myself as well, which was a nice surprise. Getting out of conflict with myself.

I guess I'm saying, if you can find ways to better enjoy some aspects of narcissism, they don't have to be covert, and it does sound like there are some unexpressed feelings involved for you.. like towards the guy too lazy to tear open a sugar packet. Narcissism can come in quite handy in situations like that. Instead of being irritated by people to the possible detriment of your composure and equilibrium, you could enjoy feeling superior to and amused by them. That's what I mostly do. Smile through my teeth and think, "wow, you really are just that much of a jerk. god bless you, you poor, oblivious sod." Gets me through the day.

Speaking on my behalf, I am not qualified to tell you what you are and are not. With that I can tell you how I am in similar situations.
If I am bothered by something it will sit inside and build, I am not very good at releasing these things other than exploding. I have done this to customers, people I work with and people in charge. I get to a point where nothing matters more than me getting out what I need no matter what others may think. In my work though there are only specialists so replacing an employee isn't as easy as a supermarket. I also don't have feelings so much of who I am but definitely on what others perceive. My own thoughts and mind is my worst enemy in these times. If I feel offended or even worse disrespected I cannot stop from getting to that point where most will pull away from. Guess this is one of the traits that makes a difference in some of my issues compared to others. I too am not the best social person as I do offend people all too often and wind up embarrassing my wife. The N part of me is always striving to prove something and that is not a good thing. For you there are probably many great tactics to use so that the people who ask stupid questions (which there will be many) and comments you can be armed with answers that will make your inner self feel good. The sugar guy for instance, a good reply would of been "well feel free to empty the packets into the jar if that makes you feel better". Or direct him to a manager to listen to his concerns if speaking back isn't your thing. I know my N side always wants to be on top. The one above wrote about using narcissism as a strong point. I do this as second nature but with that also brings a side that all the nons speak of. That is the dark, misunderstood by all side. The side that could cause you to lose your job. My narcissistic pride has never allowed me to think as a proper functioning adult, especially when i'm bothered. When I show this side it's never good! I suppose you can also keep it in and deal with it if you can, just not something I can do. Maybe one day I will be able to. I guess that's the magical question, how??

I've read a lot about it, I've taken three variations of quizzes and I always score ridiculously high (50/50 on the one linked above) I have OCD / depression and the issues that come with that are all very self centered. I don't do things to impress other people, I do things to impress myself, but because those things are so meticulously planned before getting executed, they often have the effect of impressing other people. As a result, a lot of good fortune just seems to fall in my lap without asking for it.

I can and do sympathize with other people when they fall on hard times. I do care about people. But I have a huge problem with people searching for sympathy. Outwardly I might be helpful and caring, but on the inside I am bothered or angry that I have to deal with them (This is just one example. In general, people irritate me when they try to lead me somewhere - either physically or mentally. I find it very insulting)

If trouble ensues - I am never the one who gets in trouble. Since I am percieved as an introvert and kind and compassionate and honest, I don't ever get suspected of anything, even if I played a hand in that action. I often find that my accomplices will take the punishment without a mention of my role in the matter. I don't even have to threaten them. They just willfully spare me.

On another note, for whatever reason, I get along extremely well with overt narcissists. I don't know if they have NPD, but they definitely have a lot of traits. They're fun people to be around. I don't have a problem sympathizing with them even when provoked because typically they are able to build a reasonable case as to why I should sympathize. I have no problem offering tidings that will inflate their ego. I feel like I work well with them. I think this has to do with the fact that I don't want to be number 1 in most roles. I am not a threat to their position But I absolutely have to be number 2 - and as a bonus, getting on their good side and helping them attain the leadership role insures my desired position.

My husband is extremely narcissistic - I have never loved and hated a person so much.

The last statement is something that my wife would also say LOL!!!! This is because deep down we are the most fun people to be around. Like the bad boys all the girls were warned of during the school years. We are loved and hated by all.

That's weird, you sound a LOT like someone I was quite close to... she has SA, spends a lot of time on a MMORPG, takes time to make her character look nice (which I could never understand), would at times get so angry she would have to stay away from me for a bit. I have a few questions (if you don't mind)... do you have any close friends? Have your friends ever expressed dissatisfaction at your avoidant behavior (which results in you getting quite angry)? Are you conflict avoidant, and feel anger when you feel someone is criticizing you? Do you find it easy to cut people out of your life? Do you wonder whether you know what love is/have the ability to feel love?

I currently have no close friends, although I have had a small number of close friends over the years.

Yes I have had a few friends in my life get upset with me when I shut down and detach emotionally, I tend to just fall of the radar for stretches of time. In one case the gal was so hurt and angry that she cornered me in a parking lot and said she wouldn't be my friend anymore. In the other cases it was more so being a bit miffed or mildly upset.

The above ^ did not cause me to feel angry. I did not feel anything at all, tbh. I always inevitably detach from people and go numb about it, and just want to be alone. So at the point at which they're getting upset, I'm already very detached and numb.

I am very conflict avoidant, I don't like it at all and it gives me anxiety. My anger is volcanic in nature. 99% of the time I am actually a very chill person, at least on the surface. But eventually it starts bubbling over into my conscious thoughts, and once in a blue moon I completely explode, like blowing fuse, and it's usually due to being overwhelmed with too many problems and stress sources at once.

Criticism does sting me, so if I am already in a bad mood, it could lead to anger, sure, by not by default. Sometimes it will lead to anxiety, or shame. Other times I feel nothing.

I'm not sure if "easy" is the exact right word. I don't really choose to cut people out of my life, like it's not a conscious decision. I just go through periods of mentally and emotionally detaching. It's like life becomes too overwhelming and I just shut down. If there was some sort of blow-up between myself and a friend, I would probably feel overwhelmed and shut down, go numb and detached. It wouldn't so much be the case of thinking, "I am going to cut this person out of my life," but it would happen because I would cease engaging.

And yes, I have wondered those things many times. To me love seems like a form of madness that is somehow tempting to people. Sort of like psychedelics. And for some people, life spikes their beverage and they get drugged against their will.

Interesting, thank you for sharing. Have you tried taking the quiz posted on this thread (not that you should take the result as a definitive answer, but would be interesting nevertheless)? Are you in therapy at the moment? If so, it might be an idea to share these feelings with your therapist. We all have things we can work on, what's important is that we genuinely want to; and that we are willing to put in the effort. Whether the label matches or not is perhaps not as relevant when you see it from that perspective.

My result was 35/50
"You’re kind of a covert narcissist. You can be pretty self-centered, in other words, but the behavior isn’t out of control."

And yeah I agree with you. I told a former T that I thought I had a personality disorder, but that I couldn't tell if it was more BPD or NPD, explained my reasoning. She flat out disagreed about me having BPD, and wouldn't give me a straight answer on her thoughts about the possibility of NPD. I often feel that I have a mixture of both, at least from material that is more sympathetic of the disorders (as opposed to considering narcs and borderlines to be crazy monsters).


I think it's just how I cope, and then I cope with how I cope by not forming friendships anymore.

I have often wondered about narcissism being an issue for me, because both my parents were/are narcissistic. I have asked a clinical psychologist about whether I am or not, and he disagreed. In his and my view, I have inherited some traits by default from my profoundly dysfunctional parents and I also have a tendency to wack myself over the head with whatever is handy, also thanks to my dysfunctional parents. In other words, I tend to beat myself up and feel like there is something terribly wrong with me, and believing I was a narcissist seems to fulfill that wish, because it's something I would never want to be. I have been diagnosed with avoidant traits, which is where the believing something is terribly wrong with me comes in.

I too avoid friendships but mainly because it is just too stressful. I get so anxious in social situations that it's just easier to be alone. I am so anxious about what others think about me, which I guess could be a narcissistic trait.

I think self diagnosis is a slippery slope. Don't look for labels that may not fit, leave that to the experts. And always remember that nothing is static, people change and evolve over time. I know that I have much more insight and self-acceptance now at 45 than I've ever had. I just accept that there are some things that are hard for me, and work around them.

Thank you for sharing your result. I do not believe anyone here is going to be able to tell you whether or not you are a covert narcissist... but, if you've identified traits that are associated with covert narcissism that are negative, then that's something you can work on.

I'm asking these questions more for my benefit, so please don't feel obliged to share if you don't want to ...though it may help in some way, I suppose?

From what you've said, it sounds like relationships aren't very high on the list of things that are important to you (correct me if I am wrong). I'm guessing you find it difficult, or, find you cannot "connect" and form attachments with other people (assuming you have tried). It would be interesting to hear about how you behave and interact with others in WoW. What are your relationships like with your game friends? You have mentioned that your character is powerful, important and attractive... why is this important to you? When playing WoW, do you find yourself trying to be someone else?

And these are personal questions so I don't expect an exact answer (if any at all)... how long have you known you've had SA for? How old are you now? How are you and your therapist dealing with your SA?

I don't mind, no worries.

Relationships are important to me, but then they are not, it's a paradoxical feeling, I guess. The idea of relationships is appealing, but in reality I find it to be way too stressful and then get little out of it, like it's far more stressful than fulfilling. Once in a blue moon I do form a strong bond with someone, but then for some reason (mystery to me), I eventually go numb and feel like I don't even know them at all. So I just fall off the grid and it's like the relationship never happened.

In WoW I enjoy being valuable and important to people. I have always played almost exclusively tanks and healers as a part of that. It's a situation where I can make choices that increase my value, and then enjoy the feeling of being valuable. I am also a role player, so having an attractive character adds to the fantasy element of immersion for me, as well. I generally go out of my way to try to help people, not because I am a good person, but because then I feel more valuable. And if they act like they like me, I feel more confident with it because it's more objective, there are objective valuable things I have to offer them which helps to ensure that they will continue to seek me out.

I don't think I really try to be someone else OOC (like when not role playing, when role playing I am of course trying to enjoy the experience of being someone else). But out-of-character as a real life player, I tend to just be a bit reserved and focus more on what I can bring to the table, because it makes me feel good.

Edit: About the therapy, I was diagnosed with all sorts of anxiety issues at the age of 15. Been in and out of therapy over the years but am not currently in therapy. I am 27 now. In my experience therapists provided little or no direction on overcoming any issues I have ever had. Maybe I've been unlucky with therapists, though. I was always just expected to blather on for 45 minutes while the therapist occasionally showed signs of life, and it was $100 a pop. I got fed up with it.

I'm not sure what to say. Like I said previously, I was close to someone who sounds a lot like you. I did suspect that she was perhaps a covert narcissist, because I couldn't make sense of a lot of things that happened in the relationship, and I guess labeling someone with something at least provides some answers (since she wouldn't give me any). But I honestly don't know...and it's not that important. I think I can see how having SA could push a person towards developing narcissistic traits ...but does that make a person a narcissist? I guess it's more complicated than that, right? Either way, I suppose all anyone can really do is try be the best person they can and work on the things they aren't so happy with. Have you had any luck with CBT?

I wouldn't give someone any answers, either, in such a situation. The way I would see it is that they either understand and are feigning ignorance, or they are incapable of understanding if they don't by that point, so either way it would be a waste of my time and energy to try to explain anything.

IME often in the beginning, people are more than happy to enjoy whatever it is I have to offer them, it becomes increasingly one-sided and eventually they become expectant, almost entitled to it, without ever reciprocating anything. Even though they may have grown attached due to enjoying whatever it was I offered them, I never grew attached because I never had any fulfilling experiences throughout the whole thing. So then it's like I've got this entitled, needy person demanding from me, and of course the ONLY reason they ever get upset is when I don't give them something they want. Now at that point I could try to "fix" things, explain to them that I think they're being really self-absorbed and entitled, but the after-feelings in a case like that are just ... icky. Like oh okay, now this person will pretend to be mutually empathetic, just because I called them out. At that point, both sides are just faking a friendship and it feels gross.

I had an online friend for several years, that I met through online gaming. The bulk of our conversations were about his life, his problems, his feelings, his other relationships, etc. Whenever I would try to talk about anything me-related, he'd just be like "ah cool" and that was it. He wanted to get the conversation back to me being his therapist, or if he didn't need such services at the time, then he was too busy with something else to talk with me. I never complained or anything, I just gradually lost interest over time. Initially I did grow a bit fond of him, as a person, but the whole thing became exhausting and draining after a while. At some point I just quit logging on where we would chat anymore, I quit wanting to and quit doing so.

It's a case where I can understand that the ways in which I try to bond with people, well those ways are dysfunctional. I just try to provide what people want in the hopes that they will value me and thus treat me with genuine respect, empathy and interest. But what I get more often than not for being a reserved pleaser type, is just self-absorbed people who are happy to suck my energy dry and then get pissy when I start to get too tired or overwhelmed with it. So I think in the end often it's a case of two dysfunctional people going their separate ways.

But something to think about, if your lost-friend really does sound like me. Maybe she was a covert narcissist, definitely possible. But was she getting anything genuine and fulfilling out of the relationship, herself? Or was it a more one-sided case, where one day she just quit spending her energy on you, and then the whole relationship fell apart when she stopped putting in the effort?

I'm going to cry... I just wrote a long response and now I've lost it lol. I'll get back to you soon I promise

OK, firstly... these are my own personal views, and I don't doubt you will have views that contradict mine. That's OK, we're different people and see things differently. This is more about trying to understand one another. I'll try respond to each paragraph in a separate paragraph.

I've never understood this idea that somehow discussing something is a waste of time, and so we might as well not bother. How do you know that's the case if you haven't even tried? If you haven't made it clear how you feel, then how can you expect someone to understand where you're coming from? At least give the other person a chance. No one has the ability to read someone else's mind. My idea of a healthy relationship is one where people communicate their thoughts, feelings, needs, etc. If there's something that you're not happy with, then you should express that in the best way you can. If the other person genuinely cares about you, they'll do whatever they need to do in order to make things better. They will try to understand, regardless of whether it makes sense to them or not. That person might genuinely have had no idea you felt a certain way. I believe a good relationship is something two people build together. If you claim to care about someone, then you want to do that. Telling someone it's not worth spending time talking about a particular issue, to me is the same as saying "I don't care about you". Maybe it's just my brain, but I don't know how else to interpret that. How can you say that to someone you supposedly care about?

What is a fulfilling relationship to you? If you've never expressed your needs and feelings, how can a person cater to them? There are some people who will not express themselves at all, and then when the relationship ends they bring up all this stuff which they've never mentioned before. That doesn't make sense to me. If you're committed to making a relationship work, you have to deal with conflicts, not avoid them. And if it turns out that you can't see eye to eye with someone, that's fine... at least you both know where you stand. Perhaps the truth is that these people don't actually know what their needs are, and that's why they are so inconsistent. Maybe that's why one day they'll be in love with you, and indifferent the next.

Yes, I have had people like that in my life also. I try to do what I can to be there for them when they need me, and also accept that I won't get anything back in return. But yes, if it's too much then it makes sense to detach yourself from that person. I'm learning not to let others problems become my problems.

That sounds right. But it's also important to realise why we attract or are attracted to people who we go on to form dysfunctional relationships with. I've come to realise why I attract a certain type of person, and so I can work on that aspect of my personality. What part do you play in all of this? For example, maybe you give people the wrong impression, send mixed messages, don't communicate your needs properly etc. It works both ways.

In the case of my friend, she led me to believe that she thought I was perfect and could never do wrong (those were her words). But, no doubt I did make mistakes. I thought she was happy, but maybe she was just saying that. I can't know for sure. It was not one sided, I made more compromises than I should have in order to try make things work. I put myself out there even though I didn't feel comfortable doing so. I think she would say she did the same if asked. I know there were instances when I was acting like an idiot because I had become very insecure about the relationship. That must have been exhausting for her. But she never made a big deal out of it. Anyway, I can now see it was an unhealthy relationship, and had it continued I'd probably have ended up in a really bad way. I'm not saying she was a bad person; we just weren't right for one another.

I hope you didn't take offense from my post. It wasn't meant to be an attack against you or anything. Like, I wasn't trying to say you're that kind of person or something. I know I kind of made it sound like I was applying me and my friends situation to you and that obviously would be totally unfair because you're obviously two different people. I just wanted to clear that up, and I do apologise if I did cause offense.

I don't know about this test... I got 45/50 but I'm not an N....???

You might want to look over the subtype categories and aspects of NPD; it can be a surprising array especially considering how narrowly persons with a narcissist personality disorder tend to be viewed. Even so, you can still have traits without it being a diagnosable disorder.. the term "covert narcissism" itself is just a colloquialism without measurable diagnostic relevance.

As I recently mentioned in another thread we were both in, I felt like I might have been projecting my former friend onto you and decided to step away from this thread to avoid becoming emotional and stupid lol. But since you reminded me and because I feel like I can do this now, okay here we go.

As far as feeling like it's a waste of time, it's because I spent a very horribad childhood constantly trying to manipulate the behaviors of my parents, trying to figure out how to appease them, how to make them treat me nicely, etc. This made me very vulnerable to falling for their traps and mind games the whole time. As a defense mechanism as an adult, I do not ask people to respect me, to act like they care, to empathize me. I do not ask people for anything. I accept them at face value for exactly how they really are and do not try to change them or their behaviors. Otherwise I would be far too vulnerable to manipulation and mind games. Plus, I am of the firm belief by now that you cannot change who people really are, so it's a futile endeavor, anyway.

I think that in many cases you are spot on, as far as people not knowing what they need and want, and bringing that confusion into a relationship. It has probably been the case with me in some past relations, for sure. My idea of a fulfilling relationship is one in which my personality and the other person's personality smoothly, naturally mesh. However I also accept that my ideal relationship might too well, idealistic, and that it's more practical for me to not seek out relationships at all.

We may share a common vulnerability then. I like to play the role of savior, fixer and protector, because then I feel more confident that I am valued, but it tends to backfire because I'm not actually valued, and as soon as that becomes apparent, I get bitter about it with nobody to blame but myself. Not sure how similar your experiences tend to be, but I definitely relate to your last sentence. Only chances are that my issues are less to do with me being an empath (which you might be) and more to do with my struggle to gain the fabled notion of love.

Yes, probably, but it's a trade-off or perhaps a lesser of risks in my perception. I avoid a lot of vulnerability while also avoiding any form of intimacy altogether. Then I lament the whole thing secretly to myself lol.

Thanks for clearing up some of your history with this person, it sounds like your dynamics were definitely different from the dynamics I had with my own former friend.

Hi, I looked at your profile and I didn't see much there about you. I see you mentioned borderline sensitivity. I'm fairly new to this forum so I don't want to step on any toes.
If you did have narcissistic traits it would take a long time in therapy to deal with them. Do you have a therapist you can talk to about this?

Read the first page, I agree with the part about not diagnosing yourself.

Real narcissism is no fun.

I had a nonspecific personality disorder that took 7-8 years of treatment to heal.

I'm definitely not proud of my narcissistic traits.

I can definitely say that this forum is helping me deal with them.

The best thing I can say, which is what I said in my first post, is if you are in therapy to talk to your therapist about this and if you're not you might want to consider it.

I also had some borderline traits so for me narcissism was no fun because its like I had the enemy within.

Hey if at any point you feel like it's too much for you to talk about this, then just stop responding to my posts. It's totally fine and I absolutely understand. Actually, it's kind of difficult for me to do this too; hearing the struggles others have gone through/are going through is hard enough for me, and in this case in particular I relate it to how my friend might have felt, and then I feel sad. So yes, I do understand if it brings back unpleasant memories and is too much for you.

I've read your post, but I need some time to process it properly before replying.

I want to make some statements, and I'd like you to think about them and let me know if they're applicable to you or not. If you're OK with that, let me know. It goes without saying, I don't know you personally, and so what I say has little basis or truth. It's just me trying to get you to think about this in a different way. Maybe asking these questions will make it clearer to you whether or not you MIGHT be a covert narcissist/have narcissistic traits.

Hmm on second thoughts, maaaaybe this isn't the right way to approach this. The fact that you suspect you could be a covert narcissist, suggests you've done some research and self-reflection. I think sharing your concerns with a therapist would definitely be the best way to go about dealing with this if it's bugging you. There's no point in self-diagnosing, right?

I myself was in therapy for two years with two different therapists. What helped me the most was here. If your looking to get diagnosed then a dx is the only way but if you want to feel as if someone REALLY understands you then this here is where the most help is. The two years I was in therapy was a complete waste of time (for me). This place here really helped me when I was in some dark times. Seems as if others who are supposed to be so evil and manipulative turn out to be the ones best suited to help one another. Sure I joke most of the time here as it is fun for me but I also have written some real dark gloomy things as well. When I do show the serious side of things others relate and it helps knowing your not alone. Actually the similarities are pretty intense when you get down to it!!