Self-loathing isn't real?

I don't remember if I wrote about this, but my mind led me back to this topic (and the old, outside post that started it. How the person who made that post I referenced later explained that people who self-hate would rather be taken care of than improve themselves, fix their problems. Then again, this is someone whose response towards someone taking too long to fix their psychological issues is "Move faster" and "Get over it already". The sort who finds most people weak, stupid, and overemotional.

But the most painful advice, that I've heard from multiple sources, is to just fix it. You hate yourself? Start accomplishing things and you'll stop. Feel useless and worthless? Learn new skills and you won't be useless anymore? Weak? Kill off your emotions, or at least shut them off and stop being such a little *****. Ugly? Start working out. Any of this instead of crying about it.

What only makes me more furious and disgusted is I can't imagine a life without self-hate. It's practically incomprehensible. And horrifying in its emptiness. With nothing to overcome, what's the point of living? If you're perfect, there's nothing left to do. True, it isn't productive to sit in bed, watching anime to block out and forget all the stuff you hate about yourself. It's frustratingly unproductive. But at least I have thoughts. If I perfected myself I wouldn't have any thoughts or feelings left. I'd basically be dead. At least now I have a semblance of being alive.

I just wanted to add my perspective to this discussion.

Self-loathing is completely real in my world, and I'm far from narcissistic. I do have BPD (borderline), but I haven't ever felt highly of myself. Nor have I ever wanted to be in the limelight. I have been struggling to get past these dark emotions and thoughts (towards myself) for as long as I can remember. It is exhausting!

Very best wishes sent your way....take care!

There's also some 3rd-rate kindergarten jingle that says that "depression is anger turned inside out."

I tend to ignore any sort of attempt to boil something as complex as depression down to a short phrase that claims to be reducing the stock until it becomes solidified.

I don't believe that my depression or self-loathing (or anyone's) have a thing to do with pride, anger, narcissism, etc. I have never taken the time needed, I suppose, to get to the 'root' of my depression/self-hate but, yeah, there may be some self-anger there, but narcissism? Please.

Lost in deep thoughts (by Jack Handey) last night, I did write that my isolation is narcissistic and selfish. How could it not be? Everything is about me in my closed world. I'm frightened of others. I don't know if I wrote this here or in my journals, but I am especially afraid of women (maybe distrustful should be first but afraid is equally true) because I've been hurt more frequently by women than men. Women are demons, normally resident in Hell, that exist only to capture the souls of men. I don't trust men, either, of course. I don't know if I've written this here, but I think that most men have the morals of enlightened swamp sludge that only exist to drag the souls of women back into the swamp so that they drown forever.

Bring men and women together and you pave the way for the propagation of immoral demonic slime.

Isolation, while fearsomely and bone-crushingly lonely, protects me from most contact with others. But not everyone who is depressed isolates, at least not to the extent that I, and many others, do.

I'm not willing, for example, to wheel my ravaged and mutilated body out on the dance floor to participate in some sort of grotesque wheelchair "dancing." The thought of that is repugnant. Is it because I've too much pride? Or because I'm only interested in myself? Yeah, there's some of that at play in dealing with that kind of situation. But self-pride doesn't fill the bottle. Self-shame. Self-disgust. Self-hatred. Is anyone unwilling to shame themselves guilty of being self-absorbed? Should they all be diagnosed with a mental illness? How ridiculous.

I'm not making sense any longer – the premise of this thread makes me angry and I seem to get ever angrier as I read that first message again and again. My blood sugar is low and I need to eat.

Logically, to me, if the problem of my self-hate was a self-protective motivation thing that "I", my infant/toddler self, "did" to myself or what was my love/hate response system, and if it got stuck in the self-hate mode, then it needs to be turned around. But, trying to do that is very hard, plus it has led me to hating my therapist and now hating the world. Will I ever be done with it and can let it go? Hatred just sucks, whichever direction it goes. Feels gross, unbearable. But it's there, a part of my world, too. I can't easily escape except through dissociation, which produces other problems. (And even then I think it's fair to say it still exists.)

Which leads me to wonder a little about what is going on inside the person who wrote the post and others whose advice is so painful. To me at this point in my life, the problem isn't so much me (although there is plenty that's problematic there), I think the problem is the hate and it's unidirectionality.

The original post was from a thread (by someone other than the poster I quoted) asking what self-hate is like. "I can understand feeling down about yourself, but actually hating yourself?" was basically the question. Then this person shows up and posts that she doesn't believe actual, non-manipulative self-hate exists, because you need some degree of self-importance to stay alive, plus the other stuff.

I recall from some of her posts that she's that very productive sort, who looks at it as "if you have a problem, fix it. Don't rely on others, don't feel sorry for yourself, don't sit and wallow, do something". By extension, you get the attitude I talked about in the last post I made here.

And it's quite logical isn't it? That people who self-hate do so to absolve responsibility for working for what they want. If something bothers you, just change it, no feelings required; otherwise accept what can't be changed, right? But that never clicks with me. I actually was going to make a thread realizing that I've manipulating and excusing like this since very early childhood. And never realized it. Throw in a hard, fixed mindset to the point where the growth mindset looks like a joke, no wonder I'm lazy as heck. Or I just plan and never get to acting.

I do not believe that what we call self-hate or self-loathing is narcissistic. I do not think it's productive to call it self-absorbed either: if someone punched you in the head, you'd be very self absorbed in the sense that you're focused on the pain that you are feeling. It wouldn't mean you are "being selfish"!

I wonder if self-loathing serves multiple functions? Could it be an expression of deep frustration at our real or apparent shortcomings, or at our tendency to repeat the same mistakes over and over again until we finally learn why we are making them?

Could self-loathing be a defense mechanism of sorts, perhaps to cope with fears of being negatively judged by others? In this case, I can imagine someone essentially saying "I know you are going to tell me I'm a horrible person who should feel guilty about some random thing, so I'll punish myself first - maybe then you won't act as severely toward me". From what I've read in psychology, this could be a bona fide psychological defense, but I'd hardly call that "narcissistic". More like a "superego" that's being warped by social anxiety!

A third possibility is absorbed criticism or invalidation causing self-hate. If enough people asserted that you are stupid or ugly or incomprehensible, eventually you'd begin to wonder if they have a point - even if it wasn't accurate. We are social creatures who pay a lot of attention to what other humans are saying about us.

The reason I think multiple functions are involved is because I suspect this is what MY OWN moments of self-loathing really are.

Something that I randomly remembered while watching something:

People who are self-hating and depressed cause their own pain. It's mental sabotage caused by dwelling on your problems rather than getting on with life and just dealing with it, I guess?

Many of us probably have no reason to be depressed, but it happens anyway. And yet, this never actually makes it go away. I have no right to feel bad, but I do, and I even try to keep it that way. It's all my fault, so I deserve it. Isn't that how it works?

It is completely real. However there are some people who do it for attention. Like snotty rich girls who say it in order to get people to come to her birthday party or something. But it is a real thing. Most people who say self-loathing comments constantly don't even realize this. I do agree with the comment that it is a trap for "suckers" whether real or not.

What I bolded implies a sense of choice which I have not had when I'm in a pit of self-loathing. Dwelling on my problems, trying to understand and maybe figure a way out, has been the best I could do sometimes. OK somebody without this affliction might not understand but doesn't change the way it is for me.

No -- at least not in a blaming way. What I have tried to do is impersonally and NOT socially/blaming try to figure out what is going on. Then maybe I can change it? Don't know yet. Some people try meditation to get out of the loop.

Feelings are feelings. You have a right to your feelings, whatever they are. Do you really try to keep feeling bad? How do you do that? Is it a conscious choice or something automatic? If it's automatic then isn't it more like a habit?

If she doesn't have the self-hate loop, didn't get conditioned to it early in life as Spotnitz hypothesized, then it seems reasonable that she doesn't experience it and can't understand/empathize with it.

Yes, people do need some degree of self-importance to stay alive and that is what Spotnitz hypothesized some people traded away in order to keep their caregivers happy and taking care of them. That was very important for our survival. At a very pre-verbal, just conditioning kind of level.

Not blaming the caregivers -- they were imperfect, their caregivers were imperfect, etc., etc. It all sucks. (Not just us.)

And then there are the good things. . . not that I know many but still. . .

Just for clarification, what Spotnitz called the "narcissistic defense" didn't mean that the people who had it were narcissistic necessarily. Just that their sense of self didn't function normally (and mine certainly hasn't! Wish it did.)

Well, I would say self-hate is real. Sometimes, I feel worthless and like everyone has success relatively easy, but I am doomed not to.

I have no savings, and I only receive benefits. Then I squander it all on mostly movies that I do not really need, but collecting things to me is an obsession. Like even if I did put money aside and promised myself to be sensible, what would it be spent on?

For years, I was bullied and felt low. Something come along for a few years to distract me, but then it was not to last. Now my life has been drastically altered. It feels like I wasted too much time and energy on fruitless pursuits.

I don't think self-loathing is to gain the attention of others, because usually self-loathing people are avoided by others.

For me, the worst years of my life to date were 2004, 2007, 2014 and 2015. This year has sucked hairy balls as well, but we're still only 3 months into it. In fact, a lot has sucked about the years beyond 2002 for me. I've felt depressed, lonely, worthless and like I don't fit in socially.

The only "highlights" were getting my own flat, meeting my ex (which is now considered to be a bad thing) and I had a lot of decent support workers that cheered me up. Well, I won a snooker tournament in 2014 and I had a really bad spell for 2 and a half years straight after that. There's not been a great deal of happy memories, sadly. My horror DVD and games collection is what keeps me going.

I keep coming back to this thread every time I find an article suggesting my (and others') self-focus might actually be narcissism: Millennials Believe They Are the Most Narcissistic Generation | Psych Central News

By this labelling (generation demarcation is annoying), I'm at the tail-end of the Millennial generation. And while I don't really do the whole Facebook/selfie-mad thing (I don't think I've ever even taken a proper selfie), I'm still much more self-centered than, I guess, I should be? All I really ever think or care about it myself, my mind, what I'm doing and experiencing. I don't know how I feel about that.

Another article elsewhere points out: "Compared to boomers, millennials and Gen Xers viewed goals concerned with money, fame and image as more important, and goals concerned with self-acceptance, affiliation, and community as less important." This is absurdly true for me.

That narcissistic defense info is interesting though. I can understand the idea - trade a little of yourself to remain loved and cared for. I'm kind of into personality types, and one system actually alludes to this for certain "types". For my own type, actually - an "inner deadening" and "cognitive laziness", ignoring one's inner self to maintain a sense of peace, traded to maintain a sense of security.


Quote from Enneatype Structures, regarding type Nine.

I'd never heard of Spotnitz. His theory strikes a chord with me. If I have any issues of the sort he writes about (and I think I may), mine started later than infancy. I do recall having "id vs superego" type conflicts early in schooling, related to interactions with peers and teachers, not so much my parents. I distinctly remember realizing that my actions can have unintended negative consequences for others, and feeling trapped between wanting to simply express myself but fearing violating others' boundaries. The next thing I recall happening is other kids who didn't seem to have acquired a sense of personal responsibility and empathy yet, teasing me relentlessly for being "the goody two shoes" or some such, and how much that hurt. I think I still have baggage of some kind from all this. I remember being able to see myself as both the "good person" and the "bad person" at the same moment causing panic attacks. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

Self-loathing is taught to children by parents who hate themselves; and so on and so forth. Self-loathing is the result of listening too much to the criticisms of others, and trusting their opinions of you more than your own.

Of course, I can't comment on any of the "narcissism" points because I have no idea. I worry that I may have the symptoms of narcissism and attention-seeking, in that often times I AM entirely self-focused, sometimes extremely self loving and other times extremely, violently self hating. Nobody who fits the bill for narcissistic traits gets anything but contempt, though, so it's hard to get any help from anybody if you ARE a narcissist. I guess being a narcissist is the new Boogeyman monster, who is horrible through and through and deserves to die no matter what. They are not human. They have no feelings. They do not deserve to live, and everybody hates them.

The fact is, though, EVERYBODY needs attention and love. Everybody. That's not a horrible thing to ask for.

i am so depressed sometimesi just can only sleep it off. along with being on 10 meds i still feel hurting pain in my heart. i think its from losing too many people through death, i can't get over them. does that make me a narcissist? i grieve and grieve and it won't stop. the saying time heals all wounds seems untrue. if only i could have schedule where i could actually do without sleeping too much i would love it. i drink coffee too. it helpsuntil the pain comesback and i'm flying high on caffiene. can anyone suggest a medication that would take the pain away?

I'm really sorry to read about all the pain you're going through. No, feeling bad does not make you an attention-seeking narcissist at all. Honestly, I think the original rant that was quoted by the OP was made by some insecure male misogynist. That's what struck me the moment I read it. It reeks of an MRA vibe.

I love how this thread helps me understand some experiences and thoughts I have struggled with myself. It gets through the images to the real stuff, and I guess this is what matters. That we understand what our feelings want to tell us. I'm much more for understanding than for accusing. Ironically, someone who complains about all the bad narcissists does fit the poor-me-attitude themselves and seeks validation by putting others down. That's classic narcissist behaviour in itself. And it makes sense, because we tend to project and hate in others what we hate in ourselves. Someone who doesn't hate themselves doesn't choose such a topic, in my opinion. And why should anybody listen to a criticism that isn't even meant to be supportive? There's a line that's being crossed there.

Be grateful for small mercies, as they say. Life is not perfect, and a lot of things will feel like another kick in the nuts, but at least we yield luxeries others in poorer countries would kill you for.

My sister probably ain't gonna get her eldest son back without one hell of a legal fight. Unfortunately, the law really is corrupt. It doesn't seem fair at all, but what ever is? She is a great person, my wee sister. Never puts herself first even in situations when she should. Hopefully there will come a day where she will beat the baddies.

Have you guys ever registered with Meetup? People use it to search for social groups online, but it appears to be more productive than Facebook. This social stuff for me is extra tough with my anxiety and all the crap that goes on in my life nowadays, but what ain't working for me might be beneficiary to others.

I hate being single and I find escorts do nothing for me. That is really an activity for sexual pleasure, but I tend to act on impulse when I am desperate. Well, they say a fool and his money are soon parted.

Getting a true girlfriend makes for better sex, a better you and a better life. Just finding one can be painfully frustrating. My friend who is currently in jail, also went down the route of feeling angry at the world.

My mother still bids on flats for me. The trouble is that you have to bid for over a year to stand a chance of being offered a place. It is sort of fair to run it that way when you consider the fact that many people are already on a waiting list. But I say that lightly.

That guy sounds like he got his heart broken and is just looking to point fingers at someone. It sounds personnel and unless it offers something constructive, I'd see it for what it is. Hopefully the original poster heals.