[Wants2Fly]

I hope some of you will share your experiences with becoming aware of words that sabotage our self-esteem and mental health. I'd love to know more about how this mechanism works, the many forms it takes, and how we can overcome it.

My T in NOLA was working with me on becoming aware of what he called the "subtle" words I use that put myself down.

Last night, I became aware that I was referring to a planned Christmas visit to see my mother and other relatives in the New York Adirondacks as "sponging off my relatives."

I meant it in a funning kind of way, but after I repeated it a few times, I realized that this is one of my subtle self-put downs. Yes, I do have to bide some time til I can move into my apartment in Jan. But I do NOT have to spend it up North, and I have not confronted winter temperatures for some years. Being cold is not an unparalleled delight.

My mom smokes like a fiend, a being in that tiny apartment makes me stink right down to my undies. It is boring. But she is 80. Her 2 kids rarely visit on her the holidays, bec. the weather is pretty forbidding up there. It's not unusual to get stranded for a few days by a winter storm, if roads and airports close.

My godmother (her sister) and husband live in the same complex. Uncle Joe had a heart attack recently. I'm not sure how long any of these people are going to be around for me. And I love them, in the distant way of our family. So it is a blessing that I have this time when I can do what I want and be with them.

Why do I put myself down by calling this "sponging off my relatives"?

Probably because someone, at some time, said something to you that imprinted that upon your brain!! When I think of myself and I relate to my family, I always use descriptive words for me like "weird, eccentric, crazy, black sheep"......etc.......

I can only wish there was something subtle about my negative self-talk. It's exhausting. Fighting it is something I have to work on continuously. If I stop, I become a big pile of self-loathing. It ain't pretty.

I know it is based in parental abandonment issues, and most recently in a reinactment of that same abandonment by my former therapist. Major bummer. Funny how history repeats itself, ehh? Ok, not funny ha ha. Funny odd. Funny crappy actually.

What helps me deal with the negative self-talk are CBT concepts, and that book Feeling Good by David Burns. What does NOT help are drinking wine and crying. I've tried both.

emmy

[Wants2Fly]

I've been using feeling good, too, and I find that his advice to *write out* the counter-arguments to negative self-talk is more helpful than letting the counter-talk stew in my head, just like he advises.

[fearlessRich]

Figured I'd throw my two cents in here. I spent Thanksgiving with a friend's family (all 30 or so of them!) and had a good time. Inevitably, someone asks about my family and I, inevitably, refer to them (and myself) as 'white trash', acting like it's a joke. Not so subtle I guess, but it's deep rooted in me and very effective at ending any additional questions about my family! Why must I do that?

[wisewoman]

First of all Fearless, what an awful way to refer to yourself. (or anyone else for that matter) I hope you can become more aware of it and stop. As for my negative self talk. Told my T today that I "can't remember anything" She caught me and pointed it out. Or how about this one: "all I do is go to work, go home and do chores and sit on my bed for the rest of the evening reading etc" So what exactly is WRONG with that huh? Some bigger expectations on myself. Someone calling me lazy in the past. It's hard, I think for me if I can stop the language then the rest can come.

[Malady156]

Fearless -- first, welcome to the forum as I see you're new.
Second, I can't help but notice the quotation you chose for your signature is, itself, a pretty "sabotaging" statement, in a sweeping-generalization kind of way. At least it seems so to me. Re-read it and tell me if it seems so to you. Does it seem that way to anyone else? Maybe it's just me ... *sigh*

I'm with Emily up there about there being nothing subtle about my negative self-talk. I was an early adopter of the technique around the age of 6 or 7 or thereabouts, primarily as an attempt to bond with the humans by showing them hey, I'm right there with you guys, I hate her too! I think she sucks too! Don't hold it against me that everywhere I go I have to drag her around! (I'm not kidding about this -- I am not a "repressor" and can remember my own thoughts and feelings from numerous times & places in my life quite clearly -- these were my exact thoughts at the time.)

Needless to say it didn't work. Which gave me other reasons -- new ones -- for sticking with the habit.

[misty]

The words should and shouldn't I was told to get rid of a long time ago. I'd should and shouldn't all over myself. Those words have held a lot of unrealistic expectations/old rules in them. I've gotten better at catching myself saying those and then asking myself who says you should or you shouldn't and why, who made that rule and does that fit today?
Another thing I didn't realize is that when someone would give me a compliment and I would say no or in anyway not except it that it was self defeating. The exampel I was given was when someone says, I like your dress; my response would always be oh this ole thing or oh I just got it at a garage sale or something similar. Besides learning to say the word no saying just thank you when given a compliment was like swollowing a bolder to say the least. I could barely choke out those words. Today is much better feels more like a rock than a bolder. Progress not perfection
Larks

[Myzen]

"I hope some of you will share your experiences with becoming aware of words that sabotage our self-esteem and mental health. I'd love to know more about how this mechanism works "

A good question, Wants 2Fly, and relevant to all of us probably.

Here are some descriptions of me:.

1. My birth family - "Bad", "Cold hearted", "Moody and estranged"

2. My teaching mentors - "A caring and effective teacher"

3. My wife - "I think that you are a nicer person than me"

4. My daughter - "I love you, Dad."

All of these people have known me intimately. Now, which is the section that I get in the arising thoughts? No 1 of course.

It is really good to put this stuff out in the world. Thanks for the thread.

Cheers, Myzen.

[silver_queen]

Until I read your post Myzen, I had just assumed you were female!

[fearlessRich]

I agree, wisewoman... 'white trash' isn't a term I should use to refer to anyone... let alone myself... I think I'm being funny when I say it, but feel the internal wounding deep inside each time...

And, hi, Malady. I don't see the quote as negatively as it appears. It is out of context.. a character in one of JCO's novels is thinking it right after he has been gunned down on his front porch (or something like that).. as he's dying, he realizes all the stuff he spent so much time worrying about, working on, etc., didn't mean a thing. I guess it tells me not to take all this too seriously...

[Wants2Fly]

Wow! It is so helpful to know how many of us are working on this, and how many different forms the word-sabotage takes. Also enlightening are the speculations about how these negative self-descriptions have crept into our thinking.

Yes, I would have to say that the idea that people who take something from others without reciprocating as "sponging" comes from my family. My mother and her closest sister are in the late 70s - 80s -- and they still keep a mental list of what they gave each other!!! "She and Joe bought me all those poinsettia last Christmas -- I better give them a set of crystal. I don't want them to think I'm taking advantage." And "Your mother made that beautifully embroidered polka vest for Joe. You can't even buy that kind of craftsmanship. So we figured we had to buy her at least a Cadillac." Joking, joking. You get the picture, though.

The Sufis are trying to teach me that it's OK to ask for help, and to receive it gracefully (yes, like swallowing rocks!), because giving brings blessings to the giver as well as to the appreciative receiver.

My field of study is language. One of the deep truths of the field is that, socially, we cannot think about a problem to solve it until we can define it -- e.g. -- have words for it. For example -- "date rape" didn't exist when I was young. I realize now that it happened to me -- but all I felt back then was guilt that I had *caused* a "nice young man" to become a monster. There was no other social description than that girls who were raped had "asked for it."

When I signed up for this list, I tried to find a LoginName that didn't describe how I actually felt but something I aspired to. I knew it would be too depressing to logon a few times a day with a self-descriptor that reminded me of how awful I felt. I have a Sufi name that means the Deep Peace, a quality I aspire to. Recently, I've started to think that I might want to change my login from Wants2Fly to Salima, but I guess that would be confusing and weird.

I hope more people will feel moved to contribute about the self-descriptions we use that diminish ourselves. It has been more helpful to me to read this -- from people I know at least a little -- than the examples in Dr. Burns FeelingGood books, bec. those people are only case studies to me, in the end.

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to reflect about this and to post.

[SweetCrusader]

I have words that sabotage, too. WAY too many of them to name. Like Emmers, mine are generally not very subtle. My favorite thing in the whole world seems to be to call myself "melodramatic" every time I acknowledge my pain, my problems, or my history. If I tell somebody that I hurt, I automatically tell myself inside that I have no right or reason to, and that I'm just trying to get attention or that I feed off of being a victim. My therapist says I'm actually quite the opposite of what I think of myself. I see myself as constantly complaining and whining. She basically tells me it's like pulling teeth to get me to say I really have hurt feelings and a reason to have them. Anyway...

I tell myself I am a drain on the Universe basically, too. Any and every time someone gives to me- even just kind words, I automatically feel like I should have guilt for that. I tell myself all kinds of bad things about me.

Ugh!

Asking for help is so hard for me that I usually get stomach cramps and the accompanying malady before I do ask.....I'll kill myself before I ask someone else to assist me!!! And I know that some of that came about in my marriages....horse kicked me and knocked me out cold in a 5' snowdrift...when I came to, big wound on head, bleeding, dizzy, I called husband and he just couldn't leave office to come help me....it was always that way. He put children and I second to work....first husband "let" me take care of his parents and everything else that needed to be done. So, the words "would you?", "could you", etc. are almost impossible for me to say. Zen knows how hard it is for me to ask for anything....she calls me "miss stoic"....AND I use descriptive words like "self-sufficient", "independent" to describe myself all the time.That way I don't have to use the other words.. And those aren't nice terms for the way I feel about myself and the people around me.

I'm so glad you started this thread. We all needed this. Pat

[Malady156]

Ahhh - thanks for the context! I can now understand it in a better way.

[Malady156]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
... call myself "melodramatic" every time I acknowledge my pain, my problems, or my history. If I tell somebody that I hurt, I automatically tell myself inside that I have no right or reason to, and that I'm just trying to get attention or that I feed off of being a victim ...I am a drain on the Universe basically, too. Any and every time someone gives to me- even just kind words, I automatically feel like I should have guilt for that..

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I got told that kind of crap so much, so hard, and so often, for so LONG, that like you, I came to believe it was "truth" and "reality". UNLIKE you, however, instead of fighting against it or even "listening to it" go on constantly inside my head as self-talk, etc., I internalized it completely, and developed the same kind of "uber-self-sufficiency" that someone else here described in their post.

Reading this here about you makes me want to reach out and (safe) hug you and once again tell you I'm sincerely sorry that my "venting" comment on that other thread of mine hurt you personally. You certainly don't need any more of that toxin floating around your head, it doesn't help any. If it helps you understand me any better (not that you're obligated to ov course), I got "anger" and "hurt" mixed up really bad as a little kid because making myself get good & mad was the only way I could protect myself against crying which got me such a rash of ***** all the time from everyone -- I was very emotionally sensitive as a child and people made me cry all the time and then ragged on me & cut me down even more over THAT -- so I have a LOT of trouble with expressing pain without it coming out angry and nasty toward others. But I honestly did not mean to hurt you (or anyone else here) on a personal level.

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... I see myself as constantly complaining and whining.

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Me too -- I mean that's how I see MYSELF, not how I see YOU! LOL. Been told that one a lot too. "You're always so NEGATIVE why can't you be POSITIVE?" and all that crap. Again, goes back to when I was little. It's a method of c*ntr*l for them (auth*ritarians & ab*sers) -- if they can shame-flood you every time you have a need or want of your own, and especially every time you don't like what they are doing to you, then they can "shut you up" or at least deflect the issue so that it's YOUR problem, not theirs. It's all part of that double standard they like to wield -- you know -- what I call (for me) the "when do I get to be one of the OTHERS" thing. As in this: you are supposed to "take responsibility" for how you affect others -- but then you are supposed to "take responsibility" for how you presumably "let" (a bunch of bull, that word) others affect YOU -- and I want to know when do *I* get to be one of those blessed "others" so someone ELSE has to do the HARD WORK for a change!!!

They like to peddle this crap in a ton of different forms but they all boil down to the same thing: blaming YOU for EVERYTHING, including things you have no control over that don't even originate inside yourself. And I suspect they peddle it because someone crushed them out with it when they were little, and that's all they know how to do, that's what poison they imbibed as "reality" in their lives.

Anyway ... gotta shut up now before I get worked up. I already had dreams this morning while asleep that made me MAD!

[SweetCrusader]

Malady,

*hugs* If you want them.

After I replied to your thread, I talked with my therapist about it, and she helped me to see that your pain was probably where your words were coming from.

**This part might TRIGGER some who have been emotionally abused***

She also helped me to see where, in my past, I have reacted similarly to my own siblings. For similar reasons to yours. I wasn't allowed to have anger either, though. I got hit more when I got angry. My dad tried to provoke anger in me (by harassing me and saying mean things) because he thought it was funny when I got mad, but if I did get mad, I got, first: laughed at, then: punished. I was supposed to play pretend like everything was ok, so I kept everything inside of me and directed all my anger inside, at myself. That's where my negative self-talk seems to come from. I also felt anger at my siblings because they acted out instead of playing pretend. I was super-functioning. No one would ever have guessed from looking at me that there were any problems at home, and I was proud of that. But my siblings made it pretty obvious that there were serious problems. I wanted my pain to be seen so much, but I felt like it was bad for me to show it. So I felt intensely angry at my siblings for showing their pain, although I didn't often show it. Anyway, point being, I think I can sorta understand where you are coming from.

This is a place where you don't have to be mad to be recognized or validated. You can be sad here, Mal. We will accept and support you in that. I think it would probably do you a lot of good, too. Just to be sad. You can speak up and say "hey I need help" and you'll get it, without having to attack anyone else's ways of asking for help. Just saying that YOU need it is enough. You will get cared for here.

I know your start here was a bit rocky, because of the holidays. Nobody has been posting much, and you have felt unheard. But hang in there with us, ok? Give us a chance.

There are no hard feelings against you here. What you said hurt, yes, and that's why I told you that. But I don't hold grudges at all and that's why I started a thread for your birthday. Just want you to know, I'm here for you ok? I think we'll be good friends

Angela

[Malady156]

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This is a place where you don't have to be mad to be recognized or validated. You can be sad here, Mal. We will accept and support you in that. I think it would probably do you a lot of good, too. Just to be sad. You can speak up and say "hey I need help" and you'll get it, without having to attack anyone else's ways of asking for help. Just saying that YOU need it is enough. You will get cared for here.

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I appreciate you saying that. I can't guarantee it will "fix" the problem for me which has been lifelong and is ingrained as habit -- and when I'm in that frame of mind I really don't have any c*ntr*l over myself or how things come out of me (though right now when NOT in that frame of mind I can discuss it rationally etc.) -- but I'm glad you said this anyway. Thanks for your understanding and encouragement.

~Mal

[SweetCrusader]

Well now that we know and understand, maybe we can help you through it. I know how it goes when you're in a psychological tail spin and can't see straight! lol!

[Malady156]

Let me tell you about this dream I had. In my dream I was living in a duplex somewhere (nowhere I ever really lived) and it was late at night &amp; we were trying to sleep and this loudmouthed woman walks thru with like 2 kids, both teens or preteens, and they were all talking loud &amp; making noise and woke us up and I kept going to the window impatiently wondering when they'd move on, etc. and they saw me and I went outside, tried to say something to them &amp; I *think* (but don't recall) I even tried to "phrase it right" and then she gets all p*ssy with me and starts making it out like *I'm* the problem with MY "loud mouth" etc. and I'm like WTF??? she's the one with no right to be disrupting other people trying to sleep at 3 or 4 a.m. ... that's when I woke up cuz I was about to yell "F. you b**ch!" -- LOL -- it made me so upset I couldn't sleep anymore.

This is like the story of my life -- whenever someone else does something obnoxious if I have ANYTHING to say about it, even if I strive to say it right, it always gets shoved on me as MY problem and MY flaw and all MY fault, etc. Sheesh, what a freaking TRIGGER DREAM.

[SweetCrusader]

That sounds very frustrating, Mal!

[Malady156]

LOL, yeah it was! Well it gets back to the subject of this thread -- those kinds of "messages" from others go on long &amp; often enough you can really start to believe them &amp; start to go ahead &amp; dump on yourself before they get a chance to!

[SeptemberMorn]

Ahem! Has anyone else besides Wants2Fly noticed today's tag line in my signature? We need to become aware of those nasty, ugly things we tell ourselves about us and counter them with exactly the opposite! Like I suggested to Wants2, do it even if you don't believe it at first. You'll be surprised at the change in you after a while. I'm living proof of it.

"I"m lazy" = "I'm depressed but it's controllable."
"I'm ugly" = "I'm okay. Remember all the boyfriends you used to have as a teenager? YEAH!"
"I'm fat" = "I chose to be this way but I can diet any time I make up my mind to."
"I'm worthless" = "You did a fantastic job raising your kids. Never bailed one out of jail or had to deliver them to a hospital to 'get them clean and sober.' " "You're a damn good writer!"

I'm sure all of you can do the same. If you can't... just ask me and I'll give you a starting point.

[SweetCrusader]

((((Tomi))))

I noticed.

And have I ever told you that you're simply adorable?

[SeptemberMorn]

What was that, Angela?? I didn't hear you.

hehehehe