Can a NARCISSTIC PERSON CHANGE...LONG???

My T thinks my exhusband has SOME DEGREE of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and I am looking for people who have it to talk with or know about it... We are divorced and thinking about getting back together.... I have read the threads here and elsewhere and there is a great deal of info out there.....

I have to say that the problems that I have read have not really been issues with us...or maybe I am delusional....and in denial still....our problems started after we relocated to another city early in our marriage...my home town. He wanted to leave the city we were in and although I had just relocated back to that city after 3 years of commuting, I said okay... I don't know but for whatever reason he wanted to experience another city.... be the upwardly mobile professional. Since I felt like I was marketable and didn't want to rain on his parade, I said yes. However, when we moved to the city all hell broke loose. Now I am not saying there were not issues before, but they were small issues which turned out to be big issues in the end... Him not paying a bill, him borrowing money when we were dating and never paying it back, allowing him to charge on my cc but him never paying it back, etc.

Anyway when we moved things were great, he had a great job and I landed a great job through a temp agency... Then he started complaining about the job, constantly, I started to worry but put it out of my mind because he had always kept a job... Then one day I came home early and he was there and it felt wierd like something was going on...by then I had landed another great managerial job. I questioned him and he told me that he got fired.... Of course,, we were in a new city and it was all their fault...nothing he had done. I was working and we were renting at the time so I could afford to pay the rent...but instead of immediately getting a job, he waited until unemployment ran out then started looking.... Well that didn't sit well with me so we argued about it.... Of course, he was looking for the perfect job to fit his perfect, intelligent self! I also think the fact that I was managing people now had something to do with it as well.

Over the years it seemed like a pattern, get a job,, get fired...get unemployment....wait til it expired...then look for a job seriously... Then I got pregnant and thought he would get a job instead of sit on unemployment, but he didn't. During most of my pregnancy he was unemployed. During the fourth month of my pregnancy he was supposed to been saving money, we both were for a down payment on a car. He said he had the money, and I had the money, my share, so we went looking for the car. When we went to negotiate and pay, he said he left his check book at home. I said okay I'll just write the full balance and you can give me the rest when we get home.... The car was only in my name because his credit was EXTREMELY BAD! Now you might wonder why no joint account.....he was always overdrawing the account....money I put in would be gone! I had enough one time and was done! I decided I could not live like that....I was the saver....he was the spender! His money management skills were horrible!

Anyway, when we get home from the dealership with this brand new red sports car, he then tells me he hasn;t worked in weeks. Now mind you, I am pregnant, and you just lied so we could get a shiny new sports car and we have one income....but as he told me, YOU CAN AFFORD IT! I was furious and couldn't believe it....also I let him talk me into getting a stick although I couldn't drive a stick...he would teach me how to drive it hah! Two months later, we were in a six car pile up and the car was totaled...I took the money and brought a used car for him to drive since he was the only one driving it...albeit another sports car. I almost lost the baby and so my doctor put me on bed rest, now no income so I had to beg my boss to allow me to work from home so that we had an income and he did...SOMETHING THE COMPANY HAD NEVER ONE BEFORE...he still didn't get a job! Now I am not the kind of person who doesnt work, never wanted to stay at home, not that there is anything wrong with that, but when I needed him the most, he was not there! I remember the day we were going to come home from the hospital with the baby, I had no sick leave for the six week leave.... I was afraid and told him so, again he said, YOU HAVE MONEY IN THE BANK!

Anway, our marriage was full of him not working, going into companies wanting to be more than he was....these were good sales rep jobs with company cars and expense accounts but he just does't know how to work his way up the ladder, he wants to be the boss....a professional. Also, another thing that he did that drove me crazy was he was always bragging about his friends and the professional positions that they had, the degrees that they had, etc. Always bragging about me to people and it made me uncomfortable becauuse I was not the type of person to discuss my career with people at all!

After the baby was born, I decided that if he didn't change I was going to leave him, now this decision was hard for me, because he helped with all the chores around the house, was a great parent, and really has a great personality and was literally my best friend, didn't cheat on me, enjoyed doing things together, really enjoyed the good life, but not the part where you have to pay for it! If we went out of town or when we did, it went on my carrd and I paid it off...NEVER DID HE BOTHER!

So, when my daughter was about a year and our lease was up I signed a new lease just under my name, scheduled the move and told him I was leaving, and moved....left him in the apartment alone. He, however, came knocking on the door and told me he had no place to go. I told him after my mother talked to me and told me to give hm another chance, that if things did't change I would divorce him.

Okay, so he landed a job in retail and worked that although he complained about it but he kept that job...then he got a lead on another job and decided that he had that job after 3 interviews and quit the retail job before even getting an offer. He didn't get the job, so he was jobless again! Even though the previous employer wanted him to come back and called to ask him to, he refused... Again, I was furious....he promised he would get another job soon. The problem was that he refused to take ANY job, it had to be the job, one specific job that he would focus on for months and months of networking, callling, etc. until he got the job. That he is good at, GETTING THE DANG JOB!

The problem was that this job required him to travel in a neighboring city an hour away.... He immediately started talking about moving there. Now with his history, and a baby to take care of, I was not about to uproot myself and follow him again after five years of craziness.... So, I told him that he would have to commute for a year, if after a year he still had the job then I would move. In the meantime, I suggested that we pay his cousin who lived there money to allow him to rent a room during the week and he come home on the weekends....he said no. It just wasn't possible. So he worked this job, with a company car, and expense account until they fired him. They fired him because it was in the contract for him to move to the city, that is what he says anyway.... Of course, I will never know the real story.... After that I divorced him because I was tired of taking care of him and our dd....

Now after 8 years of being divorced we have been thinking about getting back together....I won't pretend to tell you that things have been good on his end or my end. I am BP diagnosed a year after our divorce. My parents help me with our dd who is 12. He has been living with his relatives in the state we used to live in, most of the time not paying child support, some of the time homeless, and I've been worried about him the entire time. I still love him and yes he is a good father, except for the support issues... For him, he was hurt by the divorce but did well because I gave him a car and furniture....another long story. Even though he got a job in another state immediately after the divorce, he lost that one too... The car that I gave him in the divorce was in a small wreck shortly after, becaue he had a company car with the new job, he left the car at the repair shop and took the repair check. They called me two years later trying to sue me for storage fees because he never took the car out of my name.

I've struggled for a long time to understand his behavior, My T thinks he is somewhat narcisstic.... He's now in school trying to finish his degree and has been there for over a year. He had about a years worth of credits left. Some how he got the school to pay all of his tuition, room and board, etc...except for books... As I said, he is very good at PR.... Before that, he was homeless living in shelters. This is a very intelligent man, always dressed very well. Even when he was homeless you would not have known it by looking at him. By talking to him you would think he was a Mayor or PR person, etc. He is currently struggling because he had two language classes that he is having a difficult time with and the school cut the funding so he is trying to find a job on campus so he can pay for the two classes and his apartment. He is 48 years old this month.

I give you this history because one part of me wants to say he never abused me, but he lied, cheated, and eventually forged my name for a credit card account when we were married because his credit was so poor. He called it leaveraging his assets! We couldn't get a house in both are names because of his poor financial decisions so I decided not to buy one until after the divorce. He never has paid the student loan people.... I think it has tripled. Judge put him in jail for 30 days for nonpayment of child support... I think it is some where around $30,000,,,,,

Okay, I ask myself what am I thinking... Well my daughter needs her father in her life. I love him and want our family back together. A part of me thinks he is trying to improve his life and has even been in therapy. I believe he wants to change. He has agreed to full therapy if we get back together. By the way, getting back together does not mean marriage until I am satisfied somewhere down the line that he is really serious and doing a good job at it! Since I have bipolar and social anxiety disorder, it is difficult on my daughter, she really has no life until he comes around... I try, I am doing the best I can but it is not enough. It is starting to affect her in school and she is usually a honor roll student. She is currently in therapy to help her deal with my illness and her father being away...

Some of what I have read about N is true about him, but most is not. Although, he has lost many friends because he took advantage of their kindness... He really just has us now. Most of those friends he owes money to but spins it in another direction.... You know, he doesn't really owe them, in friendships you scratch each others backs, etc... I know better! One friend let him borrow his credit card for a one night stay in a motel suppposedly, I had to call the friend and tell him he had been there for a week! One friend paid for him to get his insurance license....he has his own business. He paid for the hotel room and everything...car rental, etc.... He never went to the classes...partied the entire weekend....

Both parents are deceased. He is an only child, adopted. His mother died when he was 18 in front of him, a stroke. His father died the year I divorced him of cancer, I did wait until after he was buried to divorce him because his father consstantly begged me not to divorce him, said it would kill him. It was a difficult time, he was crazy with depression during this time, it was hard for him and I was at a loss....but couldn't do it any more. By the way, one day when my car had to be in the shop he took me to work and dropped off our dd at Daycare and was supposed to pick us both up.... He never showed up...that is how he ended up with the car in the divorce... When my parents finally picked me up and my dd....he was gone! I filed for divorce shortly after! He said if I gave him the car he would sign the disallusion papers....so I gave him the car and furniture for his move....

He tells me that depression set in after the divorce and resulted in the homelessness... I had an epiphany one day this summer and it was that the person that I thought he was, he is not. That was all a facade that he wants people to believe in and I bought into that. It was hard letting go of that facade, but I have. I constantly let him know when he is being unrealistic about his expectations about life, job, career, etc. He, of course, still wants to be a "professional." I think I do understand him somewhat now... He is a lost soul because of being the only child, and adopted. They doted on him, spoiled him and didn't teach him life skills. Taught him to be a giver, and that is what he does to a fault. He thinks only about today....not tomorrow! When he has money, the sky is the limit! He loves high end things.... My dd is an only child...he has no others...and I refuse to allow her to be anything like that!

I think with counseling and said boundaries that we can have a wonderful life together after all of this mess....but yes I am afraid! My T thinks it is possible to have a good life with him with boundaries...so does my best friend and she has been with me through it all! Okay, so now tell me what you think....


TJ

CAN such a person change? I think so. WILL this one change? That is another question. I think you know how uncertain it is. HOW to effect change here? I don't have the answer.

How much do you depend on his making changes?

Hi TJ

I agree with Pachy that a person is capable of change. Has he agreed to individual and/or family counseling prior to a reconcililaton? IMO, I would pretty much demand that term before even contemplating anything else. Yes, it is nice to have 2 parents for a child, and you can still do that living apart. I wish you luck, and thank you for sharing your story with us, it must have been very difficult.

If you are able, please keep us updated.

Take care,
Dee

Why only full therapy if you get back together? Is he just playing with it now, to entice you to think he's changed? Still sounds like it might be all about him.

You can have him in your daughter's life without remarrying now. Allow more contact and that way you'll see how much or little he's changed.

Narcissism is a very difficult disorder to heal...and if the person isn't fully invested in it, for a long time...in fact maybe working on him/herself forever... things don't change with them and how they put themselves first and best.

I know you want a family, but at what cost? Having the child find out for herself that her dad is all about "dad" wouldn't be the best either, you think?

TC

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
Why only full therapy if you get back together? Is he just playing with it now, to entice you to think he's changed? Still sounds like it might be all about him.

You can have him in your daughter's life without remarrying now. Allow more contact and that way you'll see how much or little he's changed.

Narcissism is a very difficult disorder to heal...and if the person isn't fully invested in it, for a long time...in fact maybe working on him/herself forever... things don't change with them and how they put themselves first and best.

I know you want a family, but at what cost? Having the child find out for herself that her dad is all about "dad" wouldn't be the best either, you think?

TC

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hello and thanks for the comments. I agree that this is difficult because he does need therapy but because of school only works part time so he has no medical benefits for therapy, but I've been in therapy for years.... It is just not about her having a father, it is about us having our family back together. It is about wanting to work through the difficulties that exist to get to a better place in both of our lives... He agreed to the therapy and that will happen, but I won't remarry him until I feel that change is obvious and long-term.

He really is a good loving father to her...he puts her first at all times which is why his other behaviors are so crazy....in terms of loving her and doing for her, except the child support issues... She responds to him better than she does to me and the therapist thinks she needs him in her life, especially now.

This would require him moving in with us because finanacially now it makes more sense... He has agreed to pay me rent, etc. and help with the bills.... A full time job is nonnegotiable also so he will have benefits then for therapy....

Thanks again for our opinions....

TJ

Sounds like you have a handle on things for now... maybe get the agreement in writing, so if he acts up in the future, you have recourse to put him out?

I never considered getting it in writing....will take to T about that....

TJ :rheart:

I see that a lot of people have looked at this thread but few have answered, I wonder why that is. Perhaps it is because you think I am an idiot, if so please let me know. I need to hear your opinions... This is an important event in my life... I know there are no sure answers but I need to hear from you...

TJ

Part of my diagnosis is a personality disorder unspecified involving narcissism. Can it change? Supposedly but I've been told it'd involve a few years of good therapy. It may be more malignant narcissism, but still narcisstic personality either way. I have other disorders aside from this (i.e. schizophrenia) and am not 48 years old. A person cannot change merely by the snap of the fingers, it takes time. For the therapy to work, you need dedication and full co-operation. I couldn't care less about changing my personality and such but do want to change the things like schizophrenia so it is necessary to be dedicated.

Whether he has done this or not, I'm not sure so maybe you could give some enlightment. Has he ever had "narcisstic rage"? This doesn't necessarily need to be physical, it can be emotional or verbal.

So, can a person change? Yes. Will they change? Depends on things like commitment and if they even want to change in the first place.

One of the things narcissists are usually good at, as well as other personality disorder sufferers, is manipulation. He may say he'd go for the treatment but you'd need to watch out. Think of it this way:

Suppose you're any type of animal (humans are, so it works but whatever) and there's another animal (him). If you are stronger than he is, he's probably not going to try to attack you. However, if he senses or sees a weakness, then he may. He could also create one.

By the above lines, I don't mean that he's going to attack you but the attack was more of an analogy to manipulation. If there's a weakness, it'll be exposed and used, probably not right away. So, let's say he goes into therapy and you eventually cut him slack, he could try to act more and more dedicated to get more slack and use that slack against you.

Hi TJ, I don't think you're an idiot! I just haven't commented because you already saw the link I posted to the Sam Valkin FAQ's... he says more than I ever could!

True, there are varying degrees of NPD, and it IS a harsh dx to be given.

But the N I was with was full-tilt, 100% submurged in his PD and unwilling/able to address it... so my opinions are VERY harsh. I don't think they are appropriate for your thread (yet).

I hope the best for you, because you deserve it!
VoN

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
AboveAllOthers said:
Part of my diagnosis is a personality disorder unspecified involving narcissism. Can it change? Supposedly but I've been told it'd involve a few years of good therapy. It may be more malignant narcissism, but still narcisstic personality either way. I have other disorders aside from this (i.e. schizophrenia) and am not 48 years old. A person cannot change merely by the snap of the fingers, it takes time. For the therapy to work, you need dedication and full co-operation. I couldn't care less about changing my personality and such but do want to change the things like schizophrenia so it is necessary to be dedicated.

Whether he has done this or not, I'm not sure so maybe you could give some enlightment. Has he ever had "narcisstic rage"? This doesn't necessarily need to be physical, it can be emotional or verbal.

So, can a person change? Yes. Will they change? Depends on things like commitment and if they even want to change in the first place.

One of the things narcissists are usually good at, as well as other personality disorder sufferers, is manipulation. He may say he'd go for the treatment but you'd need to watch out. Think of it this way:

Suppose you're any type of animal (humans are, so it works but whatever) and there's another animal (him). If you are stronger than he is, he's probably not going to try to attack you. However, if he senses or sees a weakness, then he may. He could also create one.

By the above lines, I don't mean that he's going to attack you but the attack was more of an analogy to manipulation. If there's a weakness, it'll be exposed and used, probably not right away. So, let's say he goes into therapy and you eventually cut him slack, he could try to act more and more dedicated to get more slack and use that slack against you.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

I''ve never witnessed any rage per se on his part....neither verbal or physical...he's a really calm guy...and hates acts of aggression! Now manipulation is another thing, he knows my weaknesses and yes he could use those against me, namely I am bipolar....

I know there are varying degrees of this illness and he does have some of the traits but not all of them.... Just reading about it has given me some insight into who he is and the boundaries that I must set.... Thanks for your responses...

TJ

skeeweeaka, I wonder if whether your XH has NPD makes a difference? Maybe you can just go on his past patterns of behavior to answer your question. You have known him for many years. It sounds like he has constantly disappointed you, manipulated you, and taken advantage of you. I am not seeing any evidence of change in what you have written, only his words, which in the past, have not been worth much. If it were me, I would not let him move in with me until he had shown substantial evidence of change. You can still have a family even if you live separately.

I am separated from my H and well on the way to divorce. My T has told me my H has NPD, but in the end, I don't care. What matters is how he treated me and the family. He also has his good traits, and I believe has been a really good dad. We are living separately, but within a few miles of each other. We both work. We share custody of our kids, although I have more time than he does. We cooperate on transporting the kids to their activities and talk weekly or more about family issues that come up, such as discipline for the kids (so we can be consistent across two homes), coordinating vacations, trouble the kids are having with friends and homework, etc. We are co-parenting. Sometimes we even do things together, the whole family.

I tell you all that just to show that you can have important elements of family life even if you are separated or divorced. Our kids are doing well with this system, and it helps me too, as I cannot tolerate negativity and I'm not sure I could handle one of those acrimonious divorces where the spouses are so hateful to each other.

Would you be able to establish a successful-two-homes family like this? It might be the first step toward reconciliation. Could you ask your XH to move nearby you (under no circumstances should you move to be near him!) and demonstrate his ability to be a responsible co-parent with you? Your daughter could split time between the two homes, and have the advantages of being with her father and her mother. Your H could demonstrate his ability to be responsible and dependable, a good father, hold down a job, earn and save money. You can do activities together with your daughter, go to dinner together with her, go to school events together, go out to movies together--all the things a family does that lives together. You can "practice" for being back together and see if he is able to carry his weight in the relationship. If he can do all those things for perhaps 3 years, then maybe yes he has changed. And maybe then consider living together with him again.

Not trying to tell you what to do. THat's the approach I would take. It would be hard for me to trust your XH after all he has done so he would have to re-earn trust and demonstrate functionality.

I just wanted to share my story so you know that you can have many elements of a family with your daughter even if you and your XH do not live together.

Best of luck.

A book that might be of interest:
Mom's House, Dad's House: Making Two Homes for your Child.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
sunrise said:
skeeweeaka, I wonder if whether your XH has NPD makes a difference? Maybe you can just go on his past patterns of behavior to answer your question. You have known him for many years. It sounds like he has constantly disappointed you, manipulated you, and taken advantage of you. I am not seeing any evidence of change in what you have written, only his words, which in the past, have not been worth much. If it were me, I would not let him move in with me until he had shown substantial evidence of change. You can still have a family even if you live separately.

I am separated from my H and well on the way to divorce. My T has told me my H has NPD, but in the end, I don't care. What matters is how he treated me and the family. He also has his good traits, and I believe has been a really good dad. We are living separately, but within a few miles of each other. We both work. We share custody of our kids, although I have more time than he does. We cooperate on transporting the kids to their activities and talk weekly or more about family issues that come up, such as discipline for the kids (so we can be consistent across two homes), coordinating vacations, trouble the kids are having with friends and homework, etc. We are co-parenting. Sometimes we even do things together, the whole family.

I tell you all that just to show that you can have important elements of family life even if you are separated or divorced. Our kids are doing well with this system, and it helps me too, as I cannot tolerate negativity and I'm not sure I could handle one of those acrimonious divorces where the spouses are so hateful to each other.

Would you be able to establish a successful-two-homes family like this? It might be the first step toward reconciliation. Could you ask your XH to move nearby you (under no circumstances should you move to be near him!) and demonstrate his ability to be a responsible co-parent with you? Your daughter could split time between the two homes, and have the advantages of being with her father and her mother. Your H could demonstrate his ability to be responsible and dependable, a good father, hold down a job, earn and save money. You can do activities together with your daughter, go to dinner together with her, go to school events together, go out to movies together--all the things a family does that lives together. You can "practice" for being back together and see if he is able to carry his weight in the relationship. If he can do all those things for perhaps 3 years, then maybe yes he has changed. And maybe then consider living together with him again.

Not trying to tell you what to do. THat's the approach I would take. It would be hard for me to trust your XH after all he has done so he would have to re-earn trust and demonstrate functionality.

I just wanted to share my story so you know that you can have many elements of a family with your daughter even if you and your XH do not live together.

Best of luck.

A book that might be of interest:
Mom's House, Dad's House: Making Two Homes for your Child.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Honesty, I would rather do as you've suggested. However, he hates the city we live in and based on his past I cannot uproot my dd and myself and my current support system with me being bipolar and move to another city... That being said, I suggested this because quite frankly I don't think anyone would rent to him with his credit record...and I can't move to another city... So in a sense, he is giving up something, moving to his preferred city, and I am giving up something, my space, so that we can try to make this work...

Actually, he wants to get married but until I see some long term success, like you said at least three years, I will not remarry him.

Thanks for the advice...

TJ

a bully's first move is to isolate - to remove the victim from their support system.

keep this in the back of your mind.

(((((((hugs)))))))

Yes, I know which is why I'm not going anywhere...

TJ

I'm sorry, I don't have a positive opinion about him changing. I divorced a man who could be your husband's identical twin. Mine never manged money and put all the burden on me. I nearly had a nervous breakdown (I did have two miscarriages). I now suffer with fibromyalgia because of all the years of stress (17). He married two more times after me and they both saw him for his true self in less than one year. Both hate him worse than I ever did. He has not changed in the 10 years since our divorce. I hate divorce too but it was either that or I would not be here today. Get counseling and don't put up with his emotional abuse. The alternative is better than the damage to you. Take care.

Thanks for your advice....

TJ

You know I al really rethinking this getting back together thing.... I go back and forth, I am a perfectionist and obviously want to do the right thing for me and my daughter.... What I can't do is rehash old issues with him over and over again and somehow I feel that i what I will exactly be doing.... I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and wait until he gets here but I refuse to rehash old crap with him. I'm tired and I've said all I had to say about the old issues... If he is willing to disucuss them in therapy yes I will do that, but I wil not conceded my boundaries...I will not support him at all...I refuse...I support his daughter and that is all I can do....

I spoke to him yesterday and he said I have never really supported him, and perhaps he is right because I always thought that his way was the wrong way....now some of that could have been by bipolar getting in the way... That said, I am more than willing to work on that but I won't financially support him, not one bit! I'm done with that kind of relationship....it is my turn...time for someone to support me...and if that isn't going to happen then he can hit the road...

TJ :rheart:

(((((((((((( )))))))))

hi skee,

i think that though many people have read the post they may be apprehensive about posting an opinion because it is always difficult to give an opinion when it comes down to relationships. you know the whole "no one should get involved" theory.
i understand that you have the desire to reconstruct the relationship with your husband and start over. however, based on the information you provided i don't see how he has changed. i know you've stated that you want to do this for your daughter as well. but have you given any thought to how your husband's behavior will affect her? he may be ideal for the short time he spends with her. but if he hasn't changed, don't you think that he is a negative example for your daughter. i am a mother of 2 boys and also suffer from bipolar disorder. and yes i agree that bipolar disorder has affected relationships in my life. however, you provided more than enough information as to how your husband's behavior affected your marriage. have you given any thought to how his behavior affects you, especially given your diagnosis? ultimately it is your decision to make. and you are the only one who can decide if after all thats happened a reconciliation is worth it. the only thing i would stress is whether or not a reconciliation will actually benefit your daughter. remember children are reflections of their parents. i would imagine that you want to raise your daughter in a positive atmosphere where she will learn that she is of value and does not have to put up with the nonsense of a partner who is not worth it. i wish you the best of luck.

-agony

nope. that's what i say.

what a lame male model for your daughter and the games will continue, i'd bet.

some guys just want a mommy.

and they will use anyone who will let them.

find someone else or go it alone - anything is better than losing the self respect and strength your have gained from surviving the last go round.

it's time for your daughter - you guys had your chance. it was not a good match.

the last person i'd expect to take care of responsibilities of keeping a family together is one that was incapable or unwilling to do so.

don't be a sucker!

move along ... life is too short.

find someone who will truly love you and d and treat you as you deserve. someone who was born to be with you and care about you.

this guy had abandoned you in so many areas, i mean, you know!

you can't make a silk purse from a souse ear.

peace and wishing you a true and new love,
nightbird

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
agony007 said:
hi skee,

i think that though many people have read the post they may be apprehensive about posting an opinion because it is always difficult to give an opinion when it comes down to relationships. you know the whole "no one should get involved" theory.
i understand that you have the desire to reconstruct the relationship with your husband and start over. however, based on the information you provided i don't see how he has changed. i know you've stated that you want to do this for your daughter as well. but have you given any thought to how your husband's behavior will affect her? he may be ideal for the short time he spends with her. but if he hasn't changed, don't you think that he is a negative example for your daughter. i am a mother of 2 boys and also suffer from bipolar disorder. and yes i agree that bipolar disorder has affected relationships in my life. however, you provided more than enough information as to how your husband's behavior affected your marriage. have you given any thought to how his behavior affects you, especially given your diagnosis? ultimately it is your decision to make. and you are the only one who can decide if after all thats happened a reconciliation is worth it. the only thing i would stress is whether or not a reconciliation will actually benefit your daughter. remember children are reflections of their parents. i would imagine that you want to raise your daughter in a positive atmosphere where she will learn that she is of value and does not have to put up with the nonsense of a partner who is not worth it. i wish you the best of luck.

-agony

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">
Thanks Agony, I totally understand what you are saying and agee that not much change has taken place. I do know that I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, let him get on his feet and see how things go. He arrived last week and so far old patterns have surfaced, the good ones... He is looking for a job which is difficult in this economy....he definitely needs something fulltime with benefits...that was what we agreed on....getting that in a timely fashion is another story. He may have to take a part time job until something better comes along and he is fine with that.

So far he has cleaned my house...I think about it but never fully clean it. He cooks my daughters meals for her...makes her clean her room every day...did I say he is a neat freak!!! Those are his good points I guess....he fully engages her and they get along well... Again, my problems with him are always the job and finances...

So in most ways, he is a good role model for her,better for her in some ways than myself. However, she doesn't trust him to take care of her on his own and will not live with him, he has asked her several times when I have been hospitalized.

We'll see how things go...It is difficult for me to make good decisions when it comes to him.... I just don't know what the right thing is...but my therapist is always there to help me through these things...

Thank you for your input, I appreciate it

Nightbird...I also understand where you are coming from....a part of me agrees with you too....move on....I can't change him...I'm better off by myself... But, I've made the decision to give it a go and see where it takes us. If it ends up not being a good fit, then no love lost we simply go our separate waysand he parents from a distance.

TJ

It's been a while since I posted this. Since then I have had my exhusband living in my home with my daughter and me. He was supposed to immediately get a job, it has been two months and still no job. Now I am wishing that I had listened to Agony, however, I didn't. I ask myself why did I not listen. Well mostly because I need help with my dd who is 12 yo. She was getting into trouble at school and starting to act out. That behavior was something that I couldn't deal with and was triggering my BP depressive episodes to worsen to suicide levels.

That said, him being here is triggering me as well. Especially, me constantly telling him that he needs to get a job and reminding him that he said he would get any job until he could find a more permanent one to his liking. In a nutshell, he has not changed and yes it is a bad role model for my daughter, although he does take her to her basketball practice and to school functions in my car, of course. That said, he has no money and even though we discussed him purchasing his own food, etc., he has no food and has had none for about a month! Therefore, he has lost a great deal of weight, now he is already skinny so his clothes are falling off of him. That said I have asked him to go and get aid so that he has food, he has not done so yet. I have no idea what to do next. I am upset with myself and I told him this week that he has until November 1 to get a job! I told him he immediately needs to get some assistance for food because he had no money, but somehow finds money to buy coffee at the store down the street, obviously with money found around my house! He also eats my dd's snacks and when she goes to get something there is a small handful left in the package... What the heck was I thinking!!!

Why is it that I have put myself in this situation, again I needed help with my daughter and I still do! Obviously, I need to work out the social phobia somehow so that I can have the strength to do the things with my dd that I have asked him to do. Ultimately, he came here because he had no where else to go. He lost his school funding with two classes to go and since his parents are dead and he has no siblings, I was it so he told me what I wanted to hear.

I guess I have answered my original question, in this case, he cannot and has not changed!

TJ

Eh, Is this me or isn't that a rather narcissitic outlook? No one is born to just be with someone else and to expect that will only end in disappointment. Though some narc's can never change because they are almost into the sociopath end of the radar, believing that someone is truely "YOURS" isn't a healthy outlook either. I think perhaps some people are drawn to soicopaths because they want to change them, own them, mould them into their image....it takes 2 people to tango...I find as much as people do not wish to believe this that a co-dependent is as much in need of help and understanding as the narcissist? ...we are 2 people in a relationship and each bring something into it, be that good or bad...

Mouse you are right, it is not just about his narc tendencies, it is also about codependency on both of our parts. I think that has been a factor in our relationship since day one... I think and realize after reading some posts in the abuse thread yesterday, that I am simply dysfunctional and my dysfunctional behavior is in itself not healthy for the relationship. My expectations, perfectionism, have skewed how I actually see and interpret things, as well as my paranoia, bp, and anxiety. That said, I think I really need to step back and take a hard look at myself, as opposed to constantly blaming him and my dd for everything that goes wrong. Perhaps it is just their way of dealing with me because of my bad behavior... Perhaps I am a hypocrit and just couldn't see it for all of the crap cluttering up my brain!

TJ