[MotownJohnny]

I am in such a state of flux now, I have to deeply examine things on a different, more profound, perhaps even primal level.

Therapy the last two days was extremely intense. I feel like my life is moving to some kind of epic turning point - it will either kill me or cure me. I need to own up to things I have done, but I also need others to do the same.

I just cannot go on like this. Stuck in some 42nd Circle of Hell.

I started my session yesterday with the statement that, if this were Germany 1940, I probably would have been gassed by now under the "mental hygiene" program the Nazis instituted as part of their eugenics/ethnic cleansing push.

I am, after all, a "mental defective". But what does that mean to me? On a societal level, on a personal level?

Think about that term, "mental defective". It is grossly offensive to me. Yet it is still the official legal term in US federal law. "legally incapacitated individual" used in my state law is all warm and fuzzy by comparison.

It makes me feel automatically hated, judged, disgraced, dehumanized. Words like defective or nutcase or psycho sting my soul just as racist, derogatory terms would be hurtful to a person of color or of a different faith.

One of the biggest questions - where do I stand? Who am I?. What am I?

What if I really am bipolar? Notice I didn't say have? Am. Have says "I'm still me, I just acquired this new thing" - am says "it defines who I am".

Interesting, people say "I am bipolar" or "I am schizophrenic" but only "I have PTSD". Does that imply something about mental illness vs psychiatric injury?

NO ONE ever answers my prime question - does that one thing, mental illness, negate EVERYTHING ELSE?

Am I still me, but with Mental illness X, or am I JUST X????

If I am just X, and all I will ever be to everyone is X, because they just see the label X, and won't take the time to look beyond it, then I need to go, forever. Like in 1940, on a "train to the East"

If I can still be me, with X, still be who I want to be, them I choose life.

Limbo, purgatory, stuck in between is worse than either choice, at least then I would know.

Things have to come to a head right away in my life, I cannot go on like this.

Kill me or cure me.

Originally Posted by MotownJohnny

I am in such a state of flux now, I have to deeply examine things on a different, more profound, perhaps even primal level.

Therapy the last two days was extremely intense. I feel like my life is moving to some kind of epic turning point - it will either kill me or cure me. I need to own up to things I have done, but I also need others to do the same.

I just cannot go on like this. Stuck in some 42nd Circle of Hell.

I started my session yesterday with the statement that, if this were Germany 1940, I probably would have been gassed by now under the "mental hygiene" program the Nazis instituted as part of their eugenics/ethnic cleansing push.

I am, after all, a "mental defective". But what does that mean to me? On a societal level, on a personal level?

Think about that term, "mental defective". It is grossly offensive to me. Yet it is still the official legal term in US federal law. "legally incapacitated individual" used in my state law is all warm and fuzzy by comparison.

It makes me feel automatically hated, judged, disgraced, dehumanized. Words like defective or nutcase or psycho sting my soul just as racist, derogatory terms would be hurtful to a person of color or of a different faith.

One of the biggest questions - where do I stand? Who am I?. What am I?

What if I really am bipolar? Notice I didn't say have? Am. Have says "I'm still me, I just acquired this new thing" - am says "it defines who I am".

Interesting, people say "I am bipolar" or "I am schizophrenic" but only "I have PTSD". Does that imply something about mental illness vs psychiatric injury?

NO ONE ever answers my prime question - does that one thing, mental illness, negate EVERYTHING ELSE?

Am I still me, but with Mental illness X, or am I JUST X????

If I am just X, and all I will ever be to everyone is X, because they just see the label X, and won't take the time to look beyond it, then I need to go, forever. Like in 1940, on a "train to the East"

If I can still be me, with X, still be who I want to be, them I choose life.

Limbo, purgatory, stuck in between is worse than either choice, at least then I would know.

Things have to come to a head right away in my life, I cannot go on like this.

Kill me or cure me.

Hi Johnny... I'm sorry to hear you are struggling. You know, I had a psychology professor in college who said that the behaviors people with mental illness exhibit (the ones that cause society to label them as mentally ill) are simply more extreme varieties of the behaviors everyone exhibits every day. For example, we may all wash our hands after we come home from being out in public in case we have touched something that had cold or flu germs on it. But when it gets to the point where a person is washing his / her hands so much the skin begin to chafe, then we may conclude the person has OCD.

For me, the really valuable part of seeing mental illness this way is that it puts it on a continuum rather than having it be an either / or type situation. Every one of us has aspects of ourselves that can be viewed as being unconstructive. Some of us just have more of these, more extreme varieties of these, or perhaps we simply don't cope with them as well as some others do. So, from this perspective, there's no "them" & "us", no "normal" vs. "mentally ill". There's just people who all have varying degrees of the same problems.

So, in your case, my perspective would be, you are not different from anyone else, except that you have some thoughts, feelings, & behavior patterns that are perhaps more difficult for you to manage than some other people's are for them. But, by learning to manage your thoughts, feelings, & behavior patterns you can shift yourself to another point along the continuum; one society typically views as being "normal". And once this is done, it's done. I have a little saying I once came up with: "The past is like your ***, it's behind you!"

The big problem with the either / or model is it paints one into a corner, as we say. If you're either mentally ill, or you're normal, then you're stuck. But if you're just resting at a certain point on a continuum, then there's space around you to move, and you can choose to do so. It is true, I think, there was a time (& not all that many years ago, really) when society-at-large looked at everything using the either / or model. Thankfully... hopefully... society is moving away from that once & for all.

[Open Eyes]

((Mowtown)),

This is why I found a great need to "clarify" in another thread here about "real PTSD" or complex PTSD and what it means verses a personality disorder. When I read about you Mowtown I see "stress" and how you are looking at the way you are challenged as a form of "entrapment" and unfortunately you are also exposed to others who tend to be "ignorantly" judgemental as well.

A person doesn't all of a sudden "just become bipolar" Mowtown. You are not dealing with bipolar, you are dealing with a "stress breakdown" and when you are stressed, which you are right now, you experience a PTSD cycle. Post Traumatic STRESS disorder Mowtown. And PTSD has symptoms that include difficulty sleeping and self blaming and feeling depressed as well as being "confused" too. These are all "stress related" and has nothing to do with other mental health problems/disorders.

You have been working at "self helping" in positive and proactive ways Mowtown. However, you also have some stressful things you are working through too, that is going to aggrivate the PTSD as well as feeling "guilt and shame", but that is "normal" for anyone who is stressed, it is just a lot harder for someone who is struggling with PTSD.

I think you are "stuck" in confusion right now which is only adding more stress and that is not good for you. You are doing all the right things right now to "reduce" the stress you are under, so you have to be "patient" and do your best to "not add fuel to the stress" because it will only make you feel worse. You will make "gains" if you keep your focus on doing what you need to do to "reduce" stress which includes your unknowingly feeding into creating more stress. Right now you are being a "survivor" and there is nothing wrong with that, many prominent people have had to do "damage control" and dig themselves out of bad situations, you have done this before and you, like others can do this again too.

[MotownJohnny]

Skeezyks, thank you for being a friend. I need that right now. I generally see most things in life as nuanced and very much on that continuum.

But the mental illness question, when it comes to me, is absolutely all or nothing, black or white. I either "am " or "am not" - no matter of degree, no nuance, no room to maneuver. And, to be pronounced "not" means I have to be, essentially, "completely sane", totally well adjusted. Or as I have told myself, the poster boy for perfect mental health. That does paint me into an impossibly small corner, completely surrounded by an immense chasm.

You see, in my mind, when it comes to the label of mental illness, to be accused is to be convicted. Of a nebulous crime no less - much like being accused of witchcraft in Salem or of anti-revolutionary thought in North Korea - the crime is in the eye of the accuser, it exists if they say it does, and the accuser is also judge and jury. Not a fair fight.

I know, that is all very ... Esoteric isn't the right word, but it is gossamer, vapor. In real terms, it means that, if I exhibit one symptom that I allow to "slip out " and be noticed, it makes me suspect. Enough people see little snippets here and there, and someone connects the dots, I am outed. I am outed, life as I know it is over. The wolf is always at the door, the Stasi re always lurking in the shadows, waiting to pounce.

[MotownJohnny]

But, is that "real-world" true???

I can phrase the question different ways - is a mental health diagnosis a "death sentence" for any kind of quality of life? Does it mean I will be cast out? Does just having the label make me a pariah, an untouchable, a criminal in the eyes of society.

[JaneC]

Originally Posted by MotownJohnny

But, is that "real-world" true???

I can phrase the question different ways - is a mental health diagnosis a "death sentence" for any kind of quality of life? Does it mean I will be cast out? Does just having the label make me a pariah, an untouchable, a criminal in the eyes of society.

In my eyes the answer to your question is unequivocally NO. For if it were so, then I too would have to suffer as you say above, and everyone else on this forum.....and I do not think that is the case.

This black and white thinking is so hard to see past, I understand that, but it is something I have been slowly learning to do.....I do so hope your therapist can help you with this also Johnny.

Originally Posted by MotownJohnny

Skeezyks, thank you for being a friend. I need that right now. I generally see most things in life as nuanced and very much on that continuum.

But the mental illness question, when it comes to me, is absolutely all or nothing, black or white. I either "am " or "am not" - no matter of degree, no nuance, no room to maneuver. And, to be pronounced "not" means I have to be, essentially, "completely sane", totally well adjusted. Or as I have told myself, the poster boy for perfect mental health. That does paint me into an impossibly small corner, completely surrounded by an immense chasm.

You see, in my mind, when it comes to the label of mental illness, to be accused is to be convicted. Of a nebulous crime no less - much like being accused of witchcraft in Salem or of anti-revolutionary thought in North Korea - the crime is in the eye of the accuser, it exists if they say it does, and the accuser is also judge and jury. Not a fair fight.

I know, that is all very ... Esoteric isn't the right word, but it is gossamer, vapor. In real terms, it means that, if I exhibit one symptom that I allow to "slip out " and be noticed, it makes me suspect. Enough people see little snippets here and there, and someone connects the dots, I am outed. I am outed, life as I know it is over. The wolf is always at the door, the Stasi re always lurking in the shadows, waiting to pounce.

Oh my dear friend... yes... I believe I do have some sense of this. It's odd, but I can be quite nonchalant about my mental health struggles... quite philosophical (although I don't broadcast them.) But when it comes to my Gender Identity Disorder status, I become rigid beyond measure.

I am either transitioning from male to female, or I'm male. I'm not transitioning. So I'm male. Yet I've let my hair grow out. And since I have it cut by a hair stylist, it looks quite feminine. (I think I'm beginning to get odd looks from other men out in public. It makes me uneasy.) I use clear polish on my nails. I carry a purse. (Actually it's what is typically referred to as a "messenger bag"... same difference. I love all of this... I hate every bit of it. But none of this is transitioning. It's all just nibbling at the periphery. Trying to assuage the ache deep inside by applying band aids to the skin.

I wish I could just "come out", as they say. I wish I could hide away... back in the deepest, darkest recesses of a dark closet. I fear what would happen if I did suddenly fling the door wide. I would be humiliated. I would be cast out. I dream about this.

After many years of hiding, my wife now knows about this side of me. But we don't talk about it. I call it our "don't ask, don't tell" policy. She doesn't ask, & I don't tell... But, still, occasionally she'll ask a question the answer to which would require some discussion of my GID issues. At one point I told her: "you're either all in, or you're all out. And at this point, you're all out. I can't have you bouncing in-&-out whenever you happen to feel the urge..." It's terrible. But I can't help it. There's no gray here. It's either black or white. I am torn between two lives, frozen in time, unable to move. I have my own wolf. He's waiting for me to finally move. And, if I do, he will be ready to pounce...

[MotownJohnny]

In the cold hard light of morning, which is it literally is here, a dark, wet, gray, windy, unseasonably cold morning more like mid-November than early October, I have to ask myself at this point, why do I fear the Stasi? What could they do to me?

In real life, they have no real dirt on me, because there isn't any there which rises to the level of a prosecutable crime (I hope you all realize I am writing metaphorically, and really talking about mental health status in a quasi medical-legal way). Yeah, I have my odd moments where things set me off and I withdraw or get anxious or whatever. I'm not stark raving bonkers and longingly planning the next public massacre or something - what in my catastrophising state I fear people think of me or anyone with any MI. No, in real life, my bad days mean I don't get a whole hell of a lot done at work, or I completely ignore housework so I can sulk and brood and wallow in inner misery. But overall, although it comes and goes, I am a damn lot more real-world functional and responsible than a hell of a lot of so-called normal people.

What can they really do to me -nothing legally, not throw me in the psych ward forever as I fear, or even a day. They could just ... Hate me, fear me, ostracize me, shun me. A big part of me says at this point that would be just another form of deep housecleaning, out with the rubbish, if I am not good enough for them to hell with them all.

[Open Eyes]

You do realize that these "fears" you have are the result of how your father instilled them in you, right? However, he did that because of his own fears Mowtown.

The brain spotting you have done is to find the "stress" you have experienced in your past and on top of that the stress you were put under while you were away at college and your mother would call you because your father was scaring her. Did your mother call your sisters when they went off to college? No, because she had you to protect her so she did not "stress" your sisters.

Also, if you really think about your struggle to concentrate at work at times, the truth is you have also been under stress too, that is how stress affects pretty much everyone. It is important that you work on understanding how "stress" can be the culprit to thinking bad thoughts and then work on developing more "self soothing" rather than "self incrimination". What inspires me about you is that you did set a path that was "positive" to where you embraced the right things that were "positive and productive" for you Mowtown. That is what a "survivor" does.

When you deal with "dysfunctional" famly members, it is important that you develop the capacity to see these other family member's dysfunctional thinking and rise above it to where you allow yourself to distance yourself from the "bad messages" these family members convey to you.

When someone develops PTSD, which "is" a stress breakdown, the person does want to have a "comforting presence" that tells them "it's going to be ok", that is a normal average "human" response. This is so much so that it is the basis for the development of different religions. It is human nature to "fear a wolf" of sorts Mowtown, not just your own nature, but that of all humanity itself. However, this human fear has led to our evolution as a species to where we have consistently developed so many different ways of thriving, it's pretty amazing if you really think about it.

You have recognized that your "stress" is not dangerous to anyone other than yourself too. The truth is that you are and have always been "a good person" Mowtown. So, it is important that when you are "stressed" and feel challenged that you make sure you develop a growing sense of "self care" and keep making efforts to discard the "self incriminating" thinking that only makes your efforts to make gains "harder". As I am saying this to you, I "know" that can be a challenge because I "do" struggle myself with PTSD, and I know how "stress" can be harder to work through with PTSD.

It is important that you recognize the overall challenge in yourself as "stress related" so that you continue to "improve" and not feed into confused thinking that is self sabatoging. Yes, it is one day at a time and some days are more challenging than others, however, as you keep "self soothing" instead of "self sabatoging" you will continue to "gain" more skills at doing better one day at a time.

((Caring Supportive Hugs))
OE

[MotownJohnny]

Thank you, OE. You know, I think that I need, at this time, to "reclaim my rightful place in society". What I perceived I have lost during my 2 years and two months of being lost in be wilderness - this time, this episode of being lost, I have been lost before but found my way out.

I need to be heard and validated by my family. I don't know if that can happen or not. But I have to give it a shot. I can see "a better path forward" - I hope I can lead the way down that path.

My entire struggle with the " mental illness question" over the last two years has been one which pitted my intellect, which kept telling me I could be ok, even with this, if I chose to be ok with it, against my emotional side, which was immediately overwhelmed with panic and terror and ran with that.

If I try to be very objective in viewing myself, I think I am a good man. Despite all of this, and despite what "they" told me, I managed to hold on to my job, to juggle my life around a level of intensity I never ever imagined, all against a backdrop of intense fear, despair, and I frankly many, many days when I really did want to die, violently, by my own hand.

But I am still here. I am not living in the gutter (well, not yet anyway, OE, you and only you know that situation I find myself in ), I'm not dressed in rags, I'm not incoherently babbling snockered up,on a thousand drugs.

I want to be able to say, and feel it, that "I am me", with a manageable condition that does not define me. Not "I am bipolar" or "I am mentally ill" or "I am crazy" as my definition.

So, I found out just this year I have had a mild form of asthma my entire life. I never once ever entertained the thought that "starting now, I am asthma, it is all I am or will ever be or all anyone will see when they look at me." Saying that just sounds silly.

But I did that for two years already with mental illness, and I am just sick of it. I want to do more than find my way out, I want to find my way home.

[MotownJohnny]

Originally Posted by JaneC

In my eyes the answer to your question is unequivocally NO. For if it were so, then I too would have to suffer as you say above, and everyone else on this forum.....and I do not think that is the case.

This black and white thinking is so hard to see past, I understand that, but it is something I have been slowly learning to do.....I do so hope your therapist can help you with this also Johnny.

Oh, absolutely, the answer MUST be a resounding NO. Anything else is unacceptable - any equivocation in the strength of the no answer yields a culture of cruelty where people are punished for their illnesses.

I think we already suffered enough at the hands of our conditions, we do not need to be punished for having it.

I have yet to see anyone punish someone for contracting breast cancer or Parkinson's.

[MotownJohnny]

Skeezyks, I wish I could offer you words that ease the particular pain you are in. I think for anyone of any age, gender identity issues must be such a difficult thing to face, because society is so threatened and hostile by and to people with it. Which is so stupid - while I can see perhaps the concern of a partner or child or close family member, since they always knew the status quo, and change is hard no matter what the situation, the larger society needs to be enlightened as it is gradually with sexual orientation. I am sure for older people it is even much harder, growing up in a far more rigid and unsympathetic culture.

I know that transgender people are often the butt of jokes, or worse. I think that much more openness would help that. But, as I feel about my situation, you may feel about yours, to "out" yourself is to go through a one-way door, impossible to go back, and the fallout and effects are unknown. So it is an enormous risk.

I am glad to see more exposure in the public eye that shows trans people as people leading regular lives. I really enjoyed watching the character development of the beautician Sophia on the Netflix series 'Orange is the New Black" about a federal women's prison. Sophia the character is transgender male to female, fully transitioned, but faces questions such as does she belong in a women's prison, should the government pay for her ongoing hormone replacement therapy? The actress who plays Sophia is make to female fully transitioned, and I gotta say, she has had a couple of nude scenes, and she is a stunningly beautiful woman. The storyline also gives her back story, starting as a male NYC firefighter who kept in the closet, then slowly coming to terms, transitioning, dealing with a child and wife who freaked. I honestly do not know how or why the character was sentenced to 10 years, I have to confess the only time I watch tv is middle of the night, and I often fall asleep and miss things.

[Open Eyes]

((Mowtown)),

Somewhere you have talked about your desire to just be "validated" by your family members. This desire to finally just "be home and feel safe and be validated and understood".

This is a common desire for people who struggle with PTSD, especially "complex PTSD". The challenge with getting this "need met" is that there is no true "awareness" taking place where family members can "learn" why their family member is struggling and how to be more supportive to that family member.

In all the different members I have come across in this forum, I have never met one person who has said their family has been wonderful and supportive and understanding. Every single person I have met and listened to feels isolated and their family members tend to say all the things that only lead them to feel "worse" too. I am no exception to that experience myself.

I had a customer come out to my farm who happened to be a neuro-psychologist. I had a conversation with her over the phone first and she ended up telling me what she did and I was very "frank" with her and admitted that I have PTSD. She still came out with her children and did tell me that I was brave and not the norm because most people with PTSD don't tell other people they have PTSD. She did tell me that right not a lot of study is taking place with emotions and how emotions affect the brain.

Yesterday I was at a private event with my pony and met a woman who told me she had worked with horses and trauma patients for several years. She mentioned that she was not only a minister but also a qualified/certified psychologist as well. So, I look her right in the eyes and said, "I have PTSD myself" and briefly explained that I used to do a lot of teaching until most of my ponies were destroyed by my neighbor's dog. She did not have much more to say and drifted away and did not talk to me again. I felt that was wrong, and had I been in her shoes that day, I would have said, "It is nice that you are still active in spite of the PTSD, good for you". Would that have been so very hard? Even with someone who is supposed to be a "professional"?

Although, the person who was nice to me and listened was the man who hired me. He was "nice and respectful", it isn't "that hard" really. I did not say I was an alien or anything bad, I was just honest.

Most people have "no clue" about what PTSD is. "Oh, thats the thing that war vets get right?", is what most people know. I was no different, I did not know about PTSD myself other than knowing it was something that many veterans were crippled with, I had no idea that the average person could struggle with PTSD.

Considering the fact that Post Traumatic "STRESS" is a result of a "stress breakdown", the last thing someone needs is to endure even more stress because their family invalidates them for lack of understanding or being told "not" to be invalidating to their family member who is genuinely struggling. YES, I was actually treated like a "criminal" for something I really could not help that had totally debilitated me.

Honestly, it is not fair to the patient, nor is it fair to the family of the patient either, because most people "have no idea" what is going on and how to react. When it comes right down to it, I cannot blame my family because none of them had clue what was wrong or how to react or even be supportive to me.

I think that there is such a tremendous need for "awareness" to take place along with directions to people on "how to be supportive" to people who struggle. People don't "mean" to treat the person struggling with "invalidations as they do", they really don't "know" what to do or say, so often they react badly.

[Bluegrey]

There are so many good points here already that I'm in two minds about adding this - but I think it's still worth saying.

I have a lot of physical difficulties - rheumatoid arthritis plus various other things - which mean that I use a wheelchair if I'm out of the house; I can't do much typing, piano playing or whatever otherwise my hand gets much more painful and swollen; I don't shake hands properly any more because it's not worth the risk of pain if someone squeezes even a little bit. That should hopefully be enough to give some idea of what type of difficulties I have.

It's very easy for people to look at me and see the wheelchair, or to take offence because I don't shake their hands, or to look sideways if my husband cuts up some meat for me if we are eating out. They see the disability - or rather its effects - rather than me. All too often people talk about a space for a wheelchair rather than for a wheelchair user, for instance.

When I was a primary school teacher, I taught a number of children with special educational needs. Many colleagues referred to these children as dyspraxics, autistic or whatever. Not as children with dyspraxia or children with autism.

I am a person, and these children were people too. They just had some characteristics or behavioural traits that made them obviously different from most people in some ways. You too are a person, and while I can understand your terror of being labelled as mentally ill, even if you were (which I doubt) it wouldn't affect your value as a human being. You are yourself, and that is the most important thing.

Sorry if this sounds preachy or too much like a rant. But you have huge worth just by existing, Johnny, and nothing can take that away from you.


Bluegrey

[Angelique67]

You'll always run into people who seem to not like you for any reason. You need to focus on the people you meet with whom you have a sympathetic or good rapport. The ones who don't like you probably don't know anything about you, much less that you struggle with certain conditions. I am usually treated like I don't belong at places because I'm uncomfortable and ill at ease. I got over it more or less when I was younger but now I'm going through a whole new constellation of problems and what people think of me is really beside the point for me now.

When I was in benzo withdrawal at the hospital I had a whole bunch of new experiences with dissociation. I saw myself as others did and I was very insignificant and uninteresting from that perspective. No one is ever going to really know you, so they're not going to know your conditions or anything you go through either. If anyone reacts negatively towards you, it could be your outfit, your hair, any one of a thousand tiny details about how you appear in that moment. If they find out about diagnoses it may or may not make a difference. But you are not very important to the vast majority of people you're going to run into. I don't mean that in an unkind way, but they'll do their own inner estimation of you, favorable or otherwise, and go on about their lives.

[Teacake]

Johnny, you have to know you wont he dragged off to your death for being bipolar. You've got a patently absurd delusion going on here. You aren't a patently absurd person. So your preoccupation must have something to do with something.

So who got taken away, Johnny?

Something happened to your dad to make him so jealous and violent. Probably It was maternal abandonment or neglect or severe abuse when he was quite young. His crossdressing www enough to get him taken away and shamed in the sixties and seventies in any places..people are that ignorNt.. is It possible your mother threatened him with exposure to gain average? Or that someone else somwhere else got taken away. Paternal grandfather?

We are a strange species, arent we?

[MotownJohnny]

Originally Posted by Teacake

Johnny, you have to know you wont he dragged off to your death for being bipolar. You've got a patently absurd delusion going on here. You aren't a patently absurd person. So your preoccupation must have something to do with something.

So who got taken away, Johnny?

Something happened to your dad to make him so jealous and violent. Probably It was maternal abandonment or neglect or severe abuse when he was quite young. His crossdressing www enough to get him taken away and shamed in the sixties and seventies in any places..people are that ignorNt.. is It possible your mother threatened him with exposure to gain average? Or that someone else somwhere else got taken away. Paternal grandfather?

We are a strange species, arent we?

Yes, I think so, too. It is absurd, I love the way you phrased that, TC, , made me feel a little better.

Intellectually, I know that "they" can't haul me off without cause, the old "danger to self or others". Well, I know I am not the kind of guy to ever be a "danger to others" guy, in a potentially threatening situation I am the "run, coward, run" and "9-11, Help!!!" Kind of guy. As far as "danger to self " well, I'm on my own strict don't ask, don't tell policy. They gotta use my words or actions against me to have justification to haul me off "for my own good" - my bad if I am ever that stupid again, I won't be. If I ever choose to play "final exit" it will be very very discrete. And no equivocation that time.

But the images are so vivid in my mind, how it would go down, showing up at my house or work, cuffing me, roughing me up, locking me in the back of a car, hauling me off. A disgrace I could not endure. All "for my own good".

No, no one in my family or other experience was "taken away " like that - I've had enough vicarious fear just from reading here on PC about all of the experiences of abuse people have endured.

[Angelique67]

Oh, that did happen to me, twice. Once a neighbor called the police because I was shouting in my apartment, and the second time I had called them to help me with the "man" I have believed is torturing me (yeah, that sounds real sane, right?).

Both times it was involuntary. But I found out last time when I went voluntarily in withdrawal without the police involved, it takes a lot before they'll let you in the hospital even if you know you won't survive without care. I did have to say I was suicidal to get in even though I was absolutely terrified of everything.

The locals want to take a look at "you" (general you) and then once they've made their minds up you're not a danger, they leave you alone. It's like appeasing the villagers with pitchforks, actually. That first time I was allowed to leave after a chat with a doctor on call. The 2nd time I was not as lucky.

I also hope it doesn't happen again but at least now I know what to expect, more or less, and there's 3 meals a day plus snacks. Just don't scream and shout and it will probably never happen.

[Teacake]

I wonder if you arent mentally rehearsing for the contigency of making that caló to turn yourself in.

What happened to me is they thanked me profusely for calling, didn't touch me at all, except perhaps to help me into and out of the car as any driver might, and made small talk on the way. No roughing up and no handcuffs. Even the time i was drunk there were no cuffs, although there were more of them in my house. I remember thinking they must be impressed by my bookcase. Sigh.

Ive met people including women who did get cuffed and thrown into the car. They were drunk and had made some suicidal threat or gesture. That plus resisting will get you treated disrespectfully to deter you from being a jerk again. Ive never heard aomeone say they made the call, were polite and gentle and ready to go and got treated like they were disgraced.

It may help if you like police. I happen to like them. I learned and trained with them.

You can always take yourself to ER too.

Its a terrible thing to have an urge to suicide as strong as an urge to have sex or smoke a cigarette. Its that seductive. I dont know when I will succumb. Just that im certain I will. One day. Maybe not this day. Maybe.

[Open Eyes]

It is very important to understand that the reason suicidal thoughts can take place is because the person is overwhelmed with "stress", and that is what the person wants to discard. PTSD is a "stress breakdown", it doesn't happen because a person is a failure or should feel guilty or that they are a criminal either. It is actually a "normal" reaction to a trauma, or trauma's where an individual was stressed and did not know how or what to do at the time.

All human beings deal with "stress" and have to learn "how to" manage it all their lives.
PTSD is definitely a challenge, but a person "can" learn how to manage it and develop "skills" where that person can actually have many levels of a calm and sense of balance.
With the right help and therapy, a person can learn to review their own history where they experienced stress and just did not have the skills to manage that stress at the time. Each person will be different in their healing time depending on their history of stressors and finally taking the time to work through whatever challenged them in their past. We all have the ability to "learn" to thrive in spite of the challenges we have faced in our lives. Working through PTSD takes time, however, a person really "can" make gains and even have a higher understanding than many others.

Life is about "learning" and we never stop learning and growing all our lives and while there are times where the stress can be a huge challenge, a person can "still" learn and make gains and be proactive.

[phoenix7]

having others accept you....... i foudn that was hard...harder still when i hadnt accepted myself yet.... mostly i do now that makes it a bit easier

I had to work through what happened and work out the should have , could have's before i coudl start to accept and forgive myself - still an ongoing process.

As to what people call themselves..here I am P7 or phoenix7 I am not PTSD, Abuse, Depression, suicidal ideation, and some others things lol - in hospitals i hear people say oh the broken leg in room 6 - I have said OMG really???? where is the rest fo the person lol

We are who we are - the sum of our experiences and how we learned to deal wiht them - normal? thats only a cycle on a washing machine.....look at the Normal's and you wil find they all have some sort of hang up that takes them off centre - either that or they are a robot

you are catastrophising (prob spelt wrong ) wiht the guys taking you off in handcuffs - this is when i was taught to play the "whats the worst thatcould happen game" so they cart you off - its unpleasant but in a number of minutes its over - maybe you get ther help you need at that time - well then thats good - maybe you dont - ok then what? you get better or worse...better - well thats good ...worse well then yiou need to seek help

do you see how that works - there are always alternatives - at the moment i may lose my job- i went OMG i have managed to work here wiht ptsd for almost 9 years how will i get another job and be able to manage all the unknowns.......i freaked out.....(old saying yes - but then im old lol)
((oh if youre as young as you feel - today im achy and 90 - yesterday i was 28 lol ))

bottom line is what happens happens and we learn to deal wiht it- because we have no other choice.. there is always someone who in one way or another depends on us ...

but im rambling, as i often do lol

You're not a monster, you are a person wiht a problem who is working on it - treat yourself as you would your best friend - if you hear yourself saying bad things to yourself .....then stopp and say what would i say to my best friend if they said that ? or my brother or sister....

at times when things are tough i do as my psychologist once told me and break it down as small as i need to - second by second if necessary and i get through - and i reach out and share what i know and feel in the hope it wil help others realise they are not alonoe - we, those at Psyche central , are here to listen and offer advice and the odd bad joke if you can stand it lol

take care ok - to you and everyone else on this thread i send hugs and good wishes - offers a hand if you ever need it as we all walk the same road just differnet paths along it

P7