[fallenangel337]

I saw T today. First of all, thank you to everyone who talked some sense into me last night. I told T everything today, and it went relatively well.

When I told her about the suicide attempt, she seemed concerned, but it wasn't horrible. I got through it. After we discussed it a bit more, she was briefly highlighting the good things about me, I guess. So in all that she concluded with "you're an adult...in the end, you get to choose whether you want to live or not."

I just kind of paused for a minute, confused. Okay, I get the whole unconditional positive regard and the "empowerment" deal, but really? She's basically telling me it's okay if I choose to kill myself? It made me wonder if she even cares whether I die or not. I mean, there was nothing. I felt like she just dismissed it. Kind of like "well, whatever you want to do...I don't care."

So really, does she not care what happens to me?

[WePow]

1st - good for you for telling!
2nd - T is right - like it or not. I know - feels odd. But the fact is that no one can make you want to live. Or me either! And the bottom line is that we have to come to a point where we choose to live for US.

Take this time to really look inside and see what it is you like about you. T was giving you some pointers - some starting fuel. Take that and see what you can add to it. And take the time to really find out what life means to you. Because in the end, you have to sleep in your own skin. :-)

[fallenangel337]

Originally Posted by wpowers

1st - good for you for telling!
2nd - T is right - like it or not. I know - feels odd. But the fact is that no one can make you want to live. Or me either! And the bottom line is that we have to come to a point where we choose to live for US.

Take this time to really look inside and see what it is you like about you. T was giving you some pointers - some starting fuel. Take that and see what you can add to it. And take the time to really find out what life means to you. Because in the end, you have to sleep in your own skin. :-)

I mean, it's obvious it's my choice. I know I can choose to live or die...this is nothing new.

I had to explain this to her as well: any suicidal thought that crosses my mind isn't because I don't like myself; it's to end pain, or to put the end to what, at the time, looks like a bleak future that I don't want to be a part of. It's not about punishing myself or hating myself.

I just wish I got something more than a blank stare and a dismissive comment.

[WePow]

((((((( angel )))))))) I would tell her that too then. Seriously, tell her what you need from her in this situation. There is something that is missing - and there is a reason her response hurt you.

And man do I get wanting the pain to stop ------ uggg!!!! Big big safe hugs there!!!!

[mixedup_emotions]

It seems like what you wanted to hear from her is that she cares about you, regardless of the intent of her response to you.

Have you ever asked her if she cares? It might be a productive conversation.

[fallenangel337]

Originally Posted by mixedup_emotions

It seems like what you wanted to hear from her is that she cares about you, regardless of the intent of her response to you.

Have you ever asked her if she cares? It might be a productive conversation.

I think she does to some extent...I've never asked her directly. She's said things that make me believe she cares to some extent, but then something like this happens, and it makes me take a step back.

I don't think I could ever ask her that...I think that would be awkward beyond belief. That, and I think it would be kind of pointless, because really, who would say no? Regardless of whether she does or not, I'm sure she would say she does.

[mixedup_emotions]

Originally Posted by fallenangel337

I think she does to some extent...I've never asked her directly. She's said things that make me believe she cares to some extent, but then something like this happens, and it makes me take a step back.

I don't think I could ever ask her that...I think that would be awkward beyond belief. That, and I think it would be kind of pointless, because really, who would say no? Regardless of whether she does or not, I'm sure she would say she does.

Hearing it and believing it are two different things, I guess. I remember a time when I addressed the therapeutic relationship with my T, and I didn't outright ask him if he cared about him. I asked him (in writing because I couldn't muster up the courage to actually say the words) if he "cared about helping me".

He responded that he not only cared to help me, but enjoyed helping me....explained a bunch of reasons to support his statement (which helped me to know that it was a genuine response)....and then said, "and I care about you personally in addition to that".

It would certainly be worthwhile to at least tell your T that you felt as though she didn't care, by her statement....and see where that takes you. You just might be surprised.

[fallenangel337]

Originally Posted by mixedup_emotions

Hearing it and believing it are two different things, I guess. I remember a time when I addressed the therapeutic relationship with my T, and I didn't outright ask him if he cared about him. I asked him (in writing because I couldn't muster up the courage to actually say the words) if he "cared about helping me".

He responded that he not only cared to help me, but enjoyed helping me....explained a bunch of reasons to support his statement (which helped me to know that it was a genuine response)....and then said, "and I care about you personally in addition to that".

It would certainly be worthwhile to at least tell your T that you felt as though she didn't care, by her statement....and see where that takes you. You just might be surprised.

If I remember in 2 weeks (uhg...) I will definitely discuss this with her. It certainly left me confused and hurt, so I think it would be good ground to cover. We'll see how it goes, and if I can remember to bring it up.

[mixedup_emotions]

Originally Posted by fallenangel337

If I remember in 2 weeks (uhg...) I will definitely discuss this with her. It certainly left me confused and hurt, so I think it would be good ground to cover. We'll see how it goes, and if I can remember to bring it up.

Perhaps you can try journaling about how you're feeling right now about it....and then bring that to your session? Or, can you e-mail your T what you're feeling, to hold you accountable to addressing it at your next session? I know that may be anxiety producing, but it's worked for me in the past to help me deal with some really awful feelings.

[fallenangel337]

Originally Posted by mixedup_emotions

Perhaps you can try journaling about how you're feeling right now about it....and then bring that to your session? Or, can you e-mail your T what you're feeling, to hold you accountable to addressing it at your next session? I know that may be anxiety producing, but it's worked for me in the past to help me deal with some really awful feelings.

I would, but she doesn't offer e-mail. I would call her, but I want to talk to her face-to-face about it, so I can take everything into account (body language, facial expressions, etc.) But perhaps journaling would be a good idea.

[moonrise]

It's so hard when our T's don't meet our expectations for things, even when we consider them basic things any normal person would say (or not say).

You may find that your T has reasons for phrasing things the way she did, or that she simply didn't know what you needed at the time. You needed reassurance that she cared. You could even say that to her.

Hold on to the ways you remember her caring. I know I go back and forth a lot about if my T likes me/cares about me. And I've found that if I can remember the times when I felt cared for by her, it makes the other times easier to get through.

[fallenangel337]

Originally Posted by moonrise

It's so hard when our T's don't meet our expectations for things, even when we consider them basic things any normal person would say (or not say).

You may find that your T has reasons for phrasing things the way she did, or that she simply didn't know what you needed at the time. You needed reassurance that she cared. You could even say that to her.

Hold on to the ways you remember her caring. I know I go back and forth a lot about if my T likes me/cares about me. And I've found that if I can remember the times when I felt cared for by her, it makes the other times easier to get through.

That's a really good idea. Thank you!

I know I'm running around in circles with my replies, but I still can't fathom her response. Especially after working with me for nearly a year and a half, I would have assumed my life meant enough in the very least that she would have given me something not so dismissive.

My mind constantly takes this and runs: what if I hadn't screwed up, and I had died. Would she have cared? What if I were to die in the next two weeks: would she wish she had said something different?

I would have been okay with her saying something like "you idiot...what the ****?" That would have at least been laced with some emotion.

Maybe I'm just over-thinking this.

[zooropa]

my T is very dismissive regarding any suicidal thoughts or feelings I have. It's disconcerting, to say the least. I don't understand it, and it hurts. It's like she has a policy of not talking about it. So if I go in there and say I am suicidal, it is guaranteed that we will NOT talk about me being suicidal. I don't know if it's a DBT thing or not. I wish I had Linehan's book so I could see if that is part of her instructions of how to handle sui clients or what.

I'm just saying, fallen, that I understand how you feel. I've been seeing my T for over a year and she is very supportive and caring in other ways, but if I talk about being sui or indicate it on my diary card, it is not something we can talk about. If I try to talk about it in session, she will not respond. It's difficult.

[mixedup_emotions]

When my ex used to threaten sui, my T said that the chances are more likely if he knows he has a sympathetic ear.

Last night in group, a woman was talking about sui, and my T did not even react. Towards the end of the session, my T explained that if he felt that she was serious or that it was a recurring thing, he would've stepped in.

I would think it would be hard to differentiate between someone being serious versus someone expressing sui as a cry of pain or hurt or wanting attention....I wouldn't want to be in a T's shoes to have to make that determination, that's for sure.

[fallenangel337]

Originally Posted by zooropa

my T is very dismissive regarding any suicidal thoughts or feelings I have. It's disconcerting, to say the least. I don't understand it, and it hurts. It's like she has a policy of not talking about it. So if I go in there and say I am suicidal, it is guaranteed that we will NOT talk about me being suicidal. I don't know if it's a DBT thing or not. I wish I had Linehan's book so I could see if that is part of her instructions of how to handle sui clients or what.

I'm just saying, fallen, that I understand how you feel. I've been seeing my T for over a year and she is very supportive and caring in other ways, but if I talk about being sui or indicate it on my diary card, it is not something we can talk about. If I try to talk about it in session, she will not respond. It's difficult.

I'm sorry that you're having difficulties with this in your own life

However, it's good to know that I'm not alone in this.

It is weird, though, because we talked about it and everything, but in the end, it just amounted to I was free to end my life if I so desire. We talked about what was going on and everything, and we talked about the attempt, and the feelings, but then it was over. No "I'm glad you're safe," or anything. It was just whatever.

[fallenangel337]

Originally Posted by mixedup_emotions

When my ex used to threaten sui, my T said that the chances are more likely if he knows he has a sympathetic ear.

Last night in group, a woman was talking about sui, and my T did not even react. Towards the end of the session, my T explained that if he felt that she was serious or that it was a recurring thing, he would've stepped in.

I would think it would be hard to differentiate between someone being serious versus someone expressing sui as a cry of pain or hurt or wanting attention....I wouldn't want to be in a T's shoes to have to make that determination, that's for sure.

That definitely makes sense as well. Even the thought that she was thinking it wasn't legit hurts. I mean, jeeze...I battled over the thought of whether to tell her or not, and I was worried about how she would react. I could barely even say the words today when I tried to tell her. She had to keep pushing me for me to even get the words out.

I understand the logic behind that, but it's frustrating. She knows this was my third attempt, and I would hope she knows that I don't make up **** to get attention from her, or from anybody. If I was trying to get attention, I'm sure more people than just her would have known about it.

The bottom line is: I wanted to die, I tried to make it happen, I screwed up, and I lived. What's more genuine than that? Maybe it's because I didn't try another method after I messed up the first time. She asked me about that. She asked me why I didn't try something else. (did she want me to succeed in killing myself?) I told her after I failed once, I didn't think I could handle failing again, so I didn't take the risk of making myself feel even more like **** plus, I had no other means where I was. I didn't have access to any other methods than the one I had already tried. So it makes me wonder: does she assume that it's not legit because I didn't succeed, or didn't end up in the hospital? Is she discounting it because I didn't get up and try again to kill myself? What's the deal?

Sorry if I sounded a bit b****y with that post. That was not directed at you, it's just frustrating for me.

[mixedup_emotions]

Originally Posted by fallenangel337

That definitely makes sense as well. Even the thought that she was thinking it wasn't legit hurts. I mean, jeeze...I battled over the thought of whether to tell her or not, and I was worried about how she would react. I could barely even say the words today when I tried to tell her. She had to keep pushing me for me to even get the words out.

I understand the logic behind that, but it's frustrating. She knows this was my third attempt, and I would hope she knows that I don't make up **** to get attention from her, or from anybody. If I was trying to get attention, I'm sure more people than just her would have known about it.

The bottom line is: I wanted to die, I tried to make it happen, I screwed up, and I lived. What's more genuine than that? Maybe it's because I didn't try another method after I messed up the first time. She asked me about that. She asked me why I didn't try something else. (did she want me to succeed in killing myself?) I told her after I failed once, I didn't think I could handle failing again, so I didn't take the risk of making myself feel even more like **** plus, I had no other means where I was. I didn't have access to any other methods than the one I had already tried. So it makes me wonder: does she assume that it's not legit because I didn't succeed, or didn't end up in the hospital? Is she discounting it because I didn't get up and try again to kill myself? What's the deal?

Sorry if I sounded a bit b****y with that post. That was not directed at you, it's just frustrating for me.

I understand your frustration, and I know that you're feeling angry and hurt. I really do hope that you can talk about this with your T and clear the air. Addressing it head-on could very well yield eye-opening results for both you and T.

[wonderingmary]

Originally Posted by fallenangel337

When I told her about the suicide attempt, she seemed concerned, but it wasn't horrible. I got through it. After we discussed it a bit more, she was briefly highlighting the good things about me, I guess. So in all that she concluded with "you're an adult...in the end, you get to choose whether you want to live or not."

I just kind of paused for a minute, confused. Okay, I get the whole unconditional positive regard and the "empowerment" deal, but really? She's basically telling me it's okay if I choose to kill myself? It made me wonder if she even cares whether I die or not. I mean, there was nothing. I felt like she just dismissed it. Kind of like "well, whatever you want to do...I don't care."

So really, does she not care what happens to me?

I think the fact that she seemed concerned does show that she cares. And I don't think that saying "you get to choose" is the same as saying it's OK to kill yourself or that she doesn't care whether you live or die. Still, it sure seems at best tactless to end as she did. It seems as though it would be just human to add, "but I hope you don't choose to" to the "you get to choose" statement. I would guess that her behavior might be acting according to some theory -- and frankly, a lot of the theories seem to go to extremes to me. But another possibility is that she just screwed up and kicked herself afterwards for not ending on a more positive note.

For what it's worth: Even though I know you have the right to, I hope you don't choose to kill yourself. I have learned that it is possible to endure a lot of pain, and I think it's worth it in order to have the opportunity to experience the good things as well as the pain. Also (and I hope this doesn't sound too weird or blaming), I am aware that suicide often just passes the pain on to others around us, even people we think don't care, so looking at the big picture, it may be better to bear the pain than to pass it on to others. Moonrise's idea of holding on to the ways you remember her caring is a good one. And similarly, holding on to any other good things you have experienced in the past and might experience in the future can help. Please hand in there.

[fallenangel337]

Originally Posted by wonderingmary

But another possibility is that she just screwed up and kicked herself afterwards for not ending on a more positive note.

I'm honestly hoping this is the case more than anything else.

For what it's worth: Even though I know you have the right to, I hope you don't choose to kill yourself. I have learned that it is possible to endure a lot of pain, and I think it's worth it in order to have the opportunity to experience the good things as well as the pain. Also (and I hope this doesn't sound too weird or blaming), I am aware that suicide often just passes the pain on to others around us, even people we think don't care, so looking at the big picture, it may be better to bear the pain than to pass it on to others. Moonrise's idea of holding on to the ways you remember her caring is a good one. And similarly, holding on to any other good things you have experienced in the past and might experience in the future can help. Please hand in there.

Thank you for this. That really means a lot to me for you to say that.

My t has said that if someone really wants to kill themselves, there's really not a thing he can do to stop it. He says if I knew how, I could kill myself before he could get across the room to stop me. Sounds pretty harsh, but the point is, this is a choice. Your t is not going to fawn over you because that gives you attention in a very unhealthy way. That sounds harsh, and I don't mean to be hurtful, but I've been there. I'm just sharing what I've learned from going through the exact same thing. You say you wanted to die, but hey, I've been in your shoes many times, and the truth is, I didn't want to die. I just wanted relief. I just wanted to escape. You said that yourself in an earlier post. Your t knows that too. That doesn't mean this isn't serious. It's very serious to feel that helpless and hopeless.

Your t is not being dismissive or uncaring. She is getting you back to reality. Trust me, she's concerned and she's working things very carefully with you. You don't understand that right now, but you will some day.

If you are under the care of a psychiatrist, you also need to give that doctor a call. Clearly something isn't right here. If you don't have a psychiatrist, it's time to get one and get some medical management of this. I hope things are getting better for you. Don't be afraid to ask your t about her feelings toward you. She'll be straight with you.

[fallenangel337]

Believe it or not, at the point, I really did want to die. Part of me even now still does. I had something happen that made me genuinely want to end my life. There's no question about it. At this point, it was more than just about relief. It was about my life not being worth living anymore. That's why I tried. I cut for relief...I don't attempt suicide for relief. I'm not looking for attention in the least. If I was looking for attention, she wouldn't have had to pry the information out of me. I was very much in touch with reality, as I still am. I know that it's my choice, and I know that no one can stop me. If I had done it right, no one would have known until my mom came home from work at 8pm. I would have been dead for almost 20 hours at that point. Again, had I not screwed it up. Everything would have been a lot easier had I not screwed it up...

I have a psychiatrist, and I've been unable to see her over the holidays, because she works at the college that I attend, so she's been off over our break. I'm seeing her next week, and I'm sure we will discuss everything.

[mixedup_emotions]

Originally Posted by fallenangel337

Believe it or not, at the point, I really did want to die. Part of me even now still does. I had something happen that made me genuinely want to end my life. There's no question about it. At this point, it was more than just about relief. It was about my life not being worth living anymore. That's why I tried. I cut for relief...I don't attempt suicide for relief. I'm not looking for attention in the least. If I was looking for attention, she wouldn't have had to pry the information out of me. I was very much in touch with reality, as I still am. I know that it's my choice, and I know that no one can stop me. If I had done it right, no one would have known until my mom came home from work at 8pm. I would have been dead for almost 20 hours at that point. Again, had I not screwed it up. Everything would have been a lot easier had I not screwed it up...

I have a psychiatrist, and I've been unable to see her over the holidays, because she works at the college that I attend, so she's been off over our break. I'm seeing her next week, and I'm sure we will discuss everything.

Well, I am glad you screwed it up.

And I'm glad that you're seeing your psychiatrist next week.

[fallenangel337]

Originally Posted by mixedup_emotions

Well, I am glad you screwed it up.

And I'm glad that you're seeing your psychiatrist next week.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by fallenangel337

Maybe I'm just over-thinking this.

Maybe. As I was reading this thread I was wondering if you have had doubts about the sincerity of your T for the entire time you have been in therapy or if this is a rarity.

Perhaps she didn't phrase it quite the way she meant for it to come across. Sometimes I say and post things and later think, I could have explained that better if I had said... No way for me to know what she meant or didn't.

Also - I was very depressed and suicidal for several years. It was a difficult time that I thought would never improve. When you are in that emotional darkness you cannot see it changing. That is horrible. It has taken me quite a few years and countless hours of therapy but today in 2010 I am content and happy to be alive. Still stressed but happy. I hope that you can find your peace.

[WePow]

Angel, I hope you are doing better today. And just so you know - I am also very glad you "failed" at the attempt. You are a very bright person and reading your posts to others helps me out with my own stuff. Just so you know.