It seems that I am approaching "anger" again in therapy. Anger scares me. I am scared of anger directed at me, and I am scared of the possibility of ME being angry.

Last night, in an e-mail to T, I was writing about my worry that a friend of mine might be angry at me right now (even though all evidence points to her NOT being angry at me ). I realized that maybe my real fear is the fear of ME being angry. And if I get angry, I'll end up being alone. I don't even know why I think that, but I do.

Teacher T (a T I saw last winter for meditation instruction - it ended badly) and I had a little e-mail exchange in December and I realized last night that I am REALLY ANGRY about something she said. I mentioned "csa" in my e-mail to her (I was asking her a question about a body worker) and in her return e-mail, she referred to it as " "csa", as you tagged it". AS I TAGGED IT? What does that mean? That it wasn't abuse? That at the age of 4 an 5 I was involved in a mutually satisfying sexual relationship with an adult man? That I asked for it? That I wanted it? That I was a willing participant? Is it possible to be involved sexually with an adult at the age of 4 and 5 and have it NOT be abuse?

I don't even know what to DO with the anger. I don't want ANY more contact with the teacher T, ever, so I'm not going to say anything to her about it. I know that all of this anger I am feeling isn't all about her...but OMG, what to DO with it, I don't know. The only thing I know to do with angry feelings is to turn them on myself.

At least I'm not mad at T.

You tagged it may just mean something like, "that's absolutely it", "you've identified it".

Originally Posted by farmergirl

You tagged it may just mean something like, "that's absolutely it", "you've identified it".

No, I actually e-mailed her back and asked her for clarification. I told her that T had told me that "naming" it would help me have power over it. She said naming it was fine as long as I didn't use it to identify myself.

I only mentioned it to her because it was relevant to the body work question I was asking. Not to identify myself. I worked with her for months last winter without ever even telling her about it.

Healing just SUCKS. Sometimes the temptation to just sleep forever is ridiculously huge. I hate these feelings.

When they say don't "identify" yourself with CSA, what they are talking about is not to make it who you are. It sounds like a caring statement really. I guess I'm not understanding why that angered you so much.

[Psyched]

You mentioned that she had been instucting you but it ended on a bad note. Maybe she has issues, she's upset b/c she lost a client, etc. Just b/c you may have some problems dealing with certain things socially doesn't mean that other people are perfect in that respect. If you are angry about something, don't invalidate your feelings. And please don't internalize it, like you'd said you should do, b/c the very definition of depression is anger turned inward. You need to take care of yourself & not other people. You know what happened to you, & you don't need this woman's opinion to validate that. What she thinks doesn't matter.
I feel like a hypocrite giving you this advice, as I struggle with the very same problem (anger & frutration socially). But sometimes it's easier to see things objectively rather than subjectively. I understand what you are struggling with, & I wish you wouldn't ponder over it so much. I don't think that anyone is worth the misery we put ourselves through, trying so hard to please everyone. It always seems like, in the end, they disappoint us, anyway. I wish I knew how to stop this behavior-if you find out, please let me know. I think it's just a matter of finally figuring out what I just wrote; that it just isn't worth torturing ourselves over it.

Originally Posted by farmergirl

When they say don't "identify" yourself with CSA, what they are talking about is not to make it who you are. It sounds like a caring statement really. I guess I'm not understanding why that angered you so much.

I guess I felt like she was accusing me of identifying myself with the CSA, when it was the first time I had ever mentioned it to her. It felt blaming and invalidating. She knows nothing about me, really...

I don't know.

[Sannah]

Tree, can you talk about this issue with T?

What messages did you get about anger, especially your anger, when you were growing up?

[BlueMoon6]

Ewwww...this woman doesnt sound like she's got a clue. Maybe she is good at meditation, but not at sexual abuse. Im assuming she is not a therapist with psych training.

It is very very difficult and infuriating to be dismissed and not believed. And misunderstood. I have a really hard time letting go of that stuff when I perceive someone acting like that to me. EIther I can dismiss their remarks as not understanding and not having information on the matter or I can get really angry because I WANT THEM TO UNDERSTAND AND SEE MY POINT! UGH!

I sense this woman doesnt realize or would even believe she is crossing boundaries here. And giving advice when she doesnt know what she is talking about. In many ways, csa does define our issues. Even if she doesnt get it. It is SO not her place to tell you what should define you and what should not and she has no place voicing her opinion about a serious subject in your life.

Let me run something by you...I may be totally off base. If I tell someone about csa (which I dont) I feel like it trivializes it. Especially if I dont know how someone will hear it or feel complelled to offer advice as opposed to a hug or caring ear. I have told only 2 friends. This may be a big reason. It is a part of me that I might feel would be trivialized by someone else should they offer me suggestions or advice. I am handling it and it is not their business to offer me anything more than a hug. I dont mean that in a mean way, I love my friends, it is just that it is a delicate subject that even feedback from other people can trigger all kinds of stuff.

Maybe to see this woman's words as nothing more than a lack of understanding, bad boundaries and that she believes its OK for her to offer you advice and suggestions on a subject that she doesnt know how to handle (apparently).

What do you think?

Originally Posted by Psyched

Maybe she has issues,

Honestly, I think she DOES have issues. She met with my T about me, and based on how things ended, I think T agreed with me that *her* issues were coming into play, for sure. I hate that she won't ADMIT that I trigger her issues.

I KNOW I need to let this go. I almost never get angry, ever. I'm sure I'm taking anger that belongs somewhere else and aiming it at her.

Why is it so hard for me to just let myself be angry at the actual abuser? Is it because my anger would be so big that I don't know what I'll do with it? Is it because he is not HERE and she IS?

[Sannah]

Because of her position with you she had intimate access to you and then she turned around and wasn't focusing on you but herself. This is exactly what abusers do. They don't focus on you, they focus on themselves so this relationship with her was very triggering because it was abusive?????

Weirly, this woman DOES have psych training. She is a therapist. I went to see her in Fall of 2008 when I was trying to stay out of the hospital - she does family therapy, and I wanted to consult with her about family stuff. She took a STRONG interest in me, and suggested that I come to her for meditation instruction, so I did.

She talked about me to her guru. She brought in her journal and read me pages of it. She exhanged LONG e-mails with me. She talked about when "we" would visit her guru in February. I was super SUPER worried about boundaries and kept asking her about it, and she finally wrote to me that I could let HER keep track of the boundaries. So, I trusted her to do that.

She did want me to stop working with T and start working with her, but I didn't want to. I just wanted to do the meditation stuff.

All of a sudden in January she stopped returning my e-mails. She met with my T and told him that she thought the lines between therapist and teacher were getting blurred. She had *T* tell me that. I was SO ANGRY. She didn't even tell me herself, she just stopped talking to me. I brought in a bunch of her e-mails to show T that SHE invited me to e-mail as much as I wanted to and SHE said that SHE would keep track of the boundaries.

I guess I had forgotten how all of that made me feel when I e-mailed her this past December. She made me feel like there was something fundamentally wrong with me - like she had seen into my soul somehow, and decided she couldn't be around me anymore. So her "as you tagged it" comment made me feel invalidated, I guess.

Honestly,I just want to take 5784395043587 pills. I don't do anger well at all. It feels way way way way way too scary for me.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by treehouse

She took a STRONG interest in me,

She talked about me to her guru.

She brought in her journal and read me pages of it.

I could let HER keep track of the boundaries.

She made me feel like there was something fundamentally wrong with me - like she had seen into my soul somehow, and decided she couldn't be around me anymore.

Honestly,I just want to take 5784395043587 pills. I don't do anger well at all. It feels way way way way way too scary for me.

Those first four lines up there ^ are definitely boundary crossings. You were helping her with her work on herself. I can't imagine telling anyone that I will be in charge of their boundaries. Talk about disempowerment!

Please stay safe Tree!

Do you still feel like she left because something was wrong with you? She probably??? left because she felt unsafe with the blurred boundaries because these blurred boundaries are not good??? (Just speculation of course). This is what she created, however.

[Melbadaze]

yes I'd say it touched on issues she has..and yes when we allow ourselfs to be vunrable with someone and they react in an unexpected way, it does make one feel invalidated and stupid for thinking we Knew the person, and the anger is a cover for shame, accept the shame isn't yours tree, perhaps its the ladies?

Originally Posted by Melbadaze

the anger is a cover for shame,

WOW. I hadn't thought of that. It makes so much sense it takes my breath away.

[sittingatwatersedge]

you know what? I think that ditching "teacher T" and staying with your own T was one of the best things that ever happened to you Tree. Upi cam trust yourself!! Good job!!!

[Sannah]

Here are a few articles on anger and shame.....

http://www.paulmelrose.com/shameanger.htm

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/sha...ntial-emotion/

My t and I were just talking about anger on Monday. He asked me with all the people I have anger toward, what is it that I want to say to them? I thought and I thought. As usual I am deep in suppression when it comes to my anger. While I was thinking, he wrote down what he thought my answer would be. When I finally couldn't come up with an answer, he handed me that piece of paper. It said, "Back off and leave me alone!" He nailed it. That's my anger theme, so to speak.

Out of curiosity, what would you say?

[BlueMoon6]

Tree- I agree with Sannah and Melba- it would kind of make me feel ashamed that I allowed this woman to get so close to me, to trust her, to allow HER to set the boundaries (uh, instead of allowing ME to learn how to set them).
Uh, yeah, you helped her work on herself! She blurred the boundaries by even suggesting you see her guru together, making any kind of suggestion that you leave your T, and then pulling back when it was more than she bargained for when you didnt want her to lead you around and make these kinds of suggestions- you just wanted to meditate.

I can understand how angry you were. Why did you get in contact with her in December?

Another suggestion...a no-send letter to her? Then a real letter? And maybe a one-way closure? YOU can set the boundary this time with a letter and a clear message that this is a one-way closure with her. You are not interested in working out her anger issues with her. Ftt suggested something like this with Dt and i may do it eventually.

wow tree, i'd be angry at this T too. she was totally unprofessional and crossed all kinds of professional boundaries. YOU have nothing to be ashamed of but SHE does. you handled things superbly. she made quite a mess of the relationship.

i think anger is information to tell us something is wrong that someone is doing. i think for those of us who have seen anger used to hurt others it can be a very scary emotion. i am also quite afraid of my own anger because i'm so afraid it will hurt others if i let it out. but squelching it doesn't work either. it's learning how to communicate calmly despite the anger that seems to be what i work on. i definitely have a hard time on this one and have gotten much angrier with people at times than i would like but it is a learning process. the more we hold it in the more it grows into a bigger and bigger monster that is harder to control when we do try to let some out. that has been my experience anyway.

Originally Posted by farmergirl

Out of curiosity, what would you say?

Wow...I have no idea. At this point, probably just "you are such an asshole" or "**** you". Not too constructive. I seem to have this formless, free-floating anger. I've been here before and I don't really know who I'm angry AT. T told me once that he can think of a list of possibilties - and to just pick on and try it and see how it feels. I always pick the guy who raped me in college. I wonder why? Seriously?

[darkrunner]

Treehouse,
I wish I had some help to give you. But I don't feel anger at anyone. besides. myself.

I do want to say I'm really sorry about the situation with Teacher-T.
I remember you posting about it, and I remember when it ended that it was not good.
But I didn't realize things had gotten that.....icky.
I think you have every right to be p*ssed off!!!

And I'm sooooooo glad you stayed with your T.

[TayQuincy]

Originally Posted by treehouse

I mentioned "csa" in my e-mail to her (I was asking her a question about a body worker) and in her return e-mail, she referred to it as " "csa", as you tagged it". AS I TAGGED IT? What does that mean? That it wasn't abuse? That at the age of 4 an 5 I was involved in a mutually satisfying sexual relationship with an adult man? That I asked for it? That I wanted it? That I was a willing participant? Is it possible to be involved sexually with an adult at the age of 4 and 5 and have it NOT be abuse?

Whooaaa! You taking a small thing and running with it! You are jumping to conclusions by saying that she thinks you were a willing participant, that you wanted it...etc. It sounds to me that she meant that you referred to childhood sexual abuse as "csa". As in you called it as that, and not meaning that she didn't believe it was abuse. I have been confused myself by the acronym, and for awhile didn't know what you were referring to.
It's always better to get clarification on what someone meant rather than to assume things that cause you so much pain. I would be angry too if my experience was minimized, but it doesn't sound like that is what she meant.

Originally Posted by TayQuincy

It's always better to get clarification on what someone meant rather than to assume things that cause you so much pain. I would be angry too if my experience was minimized, but it doesn't sound like that is what she meant.

you're right - it is better to ask for clarification, and I did ask her. Her response really didn't make me feel any better.

honestly, i'm realizing that my anger towards her is about much more than that comment...and actually, the anger is probably about a lot more than just her.

I don't really DO anger. And this anger bubbling under the surface...anger that I think is really OLD anger...is scaring me. It probably sounds silly, but it's true. i'm scared of anger.

[deliquesce]

sweetie, you're doing anger now. WELL DONE!!!! (is there a hi-five smiley here?)

the next step is to just sit with it and let it feel ok. i kind of enjoy anger (sometimes - when it's not too overwhelming). it makes me feel some sort of power, like i'm standing up for myself, or thinking i'm have some sort of self worth to feel anger over (if i didnt have worth, then someone hurting me wouldn't make me feel angry). i see it as progress that i can feel it, and just sit with it. it feels nice (again, only if i feel like it's not going to consume me).

i wonder what is scary for you about anger? it's not going to hurt you - it's just an emotion. are you worried you will do something with it? that someone will hurt you because of it? what bad thing is going to happen if you just let yourself feel it? is anything bad happening now?

[darkrunner]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

WELL DONE!!!! (is there a hi-five smiley here?)

Way to go TreeHouse!