Wanting to find T's house

Blue, I'll send you a PM, because I don't want to divert the thread from Rainbow's main concerns.

There are differences between the two and it takes really understanding the personality disorders to diagnosis them. Because yes, it may look like SOME of the traits overlap.

But there are KEY differences...

For example: Dependents usually have a difficult time making decisions without reassurance from someone, and maybe very passive in relationships.

Borderlines are ANGRY and display that anger at themselves or others. They see "black and white" , no gray -- one minute the T is the greatest thing in the world, the next the T is devalued and hated.

As my friend once said -- you can spot a borderline the minute they walk in the therapy door....

My T has talked about my 'willingness to be dependent' and geez loiuse, I see it now when reading that. My T says don't get hung up on dx's and I don't. She didn't even offer a dx until I read a book and wondered if BPD applied to me.
So, reading that made me think about what she said. It gives me a LOT to think about, actually.
Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack.

Echoes- my T (ftt) says not to get hung up on dx either. And desk-t ran her therapy according to the dx she gave me (ah-hem 8 months after I first started seeing her...guess Im not one of those you spot the minute I walk through the door). What book did she have you read?

More hijacking, Rainbow! Feel free to jump into your thread anytime!

I happened to pick up "get me out of here" by Rachael Rieland.
I has also picked up "Understanding the Borderline Mother" after opening it to look at and it opened to "The Queen Mother" chapter.

Rainbow did not drive by the house. She looked at it online and then distracted herself in a positive manner by doing other things...partly because she DOES care more about than just satisfying her desire, or she never would have posted here in the first place. Rainbow is worried about scaring her therapist and is trying hard not to cross her T's boundaries. Things are not always so black and white!

Rainbow needs to talk to her T about what she has been feeling and what has been going on inside of her as she has been facing this challenge. That is what therapy is for. It sounds like Rainbow's T is very professional and understanding and should be able to understand that although Rainbow resisted the urge to drive by her house, she did look it up on Google. I would think any experienced therapist would understand this urge and work with the client appropriately as she deals with her feelings surrounding this.

Yes, she did not DRIVE by the house, however, she continued to do activities that the T had already discussed as "scaring her." She continued to look up more information about her T -- specifically where her T lives and a picture of her T's house.

I never said she should not talk to her therapist. Clearly read my other posts. And I never said things were black and white.

What Rainbow said in her posts was that her T said she was scared by Rainbow's internet searches. What Rainbow did was then continue the behavior that was scaring her T, by continuing to look up information about her T; specifically her house. That is breaking boundaries that the T already stated. For pete's sake, her T said she was scared!

And it depends on the T whether they will talk about it or terminate.
The T already said that Rainbow's behaviors were crossing boundaries by looking up things on the internet. She continued to look for more -- her house. Yes, some T's would terminate over that. How can you trust people if they keep breaking boundaries that a T sets? For example, will this client now show up at my house! AND IT HAPPENS!!! (See Stormy's example and their are plenty of others)

Rainbow herself even acknowledged she broke the boundary looking at her T's house (see below). She satisfied her desire and she knew she broke the boundary, but she does not see it as being a crime. Her needs were more important then respecting the privacy/boundary of the T.


Justifying behavior by saying it should be talked about in therapy is not always the solution. When clients break boundaries and the trust of the therapist, there is NO relationship. Relationships are built on trust and respect. This T has a right to set boundaries; clients have a duty to respect them. She had the discussion once about her privacy. Rainbow ignored it and looked at her house. I have no clue what Rainbow's T will do, but you see it about taking responsibility for actions and behaviors. You scared your T -- but you still engaged in behavior anyway.

Why? is very important. But so is stopping behaviors that are "wrong" as set by your T or other people.

People can say "it's just an internet picture" -- but it's the action and behavior that is questionable. Rainbow went against a clear message from her T. Rainbow could be the gentlest person on the planet and hurt no-one, but your T set a boundary regarding her personal life....and you broke it.

rainbow, I believe you still have a relationship with your T. I believe her telling you how she felt about knowing you had searched for her online opened the door to more communication on the topic. I believe you would be rid of this compulsion if you could, and I believe you care about your T and the relationship you are building with her. I believe you are working at this and I know it's not easy.

I feel like the "monkey in the middle" game. Moosetracks and Traction are throwing the ball back and forth and I'm supposed to want to catch it. I'm not sure if I want to play anymore, though. But I'm not so happy about being talked about, so one more time, then I think it's enough. You two can argue in PM's.

Moosetracks, I've been diagnosed BPD but some of the DPD traits seem to fit too. I'm more dependent than angry. I have an awful time making decisions. I don't think any T could diagnose me so quickly, either. My T doesn't want to diagnose me. She doesn't do therapy that way. I took an online DBT class; I don't know if it helped that much. Bt didn't think the real class would help me, but I don't trust her opinion on that. She wasn't psychodynamically oriented, but behavioral. Everything was about the present and how to reframe negatives and move on with my life. Nice try, but it was only partially successful.

traction, I appreciate your "sticking up for me" but I'd rather speak for myself. I agree with what you said, though. Thanks,

Moose: I see your point too. But I already knew where T lived and I told her during that same session. I agree that seeing her house was crossing a boundary, sort of. I did post that, but know I'm not sure. She said she was scared, but she didn't forbid me from doing it. We only talked about it for about 5 minutes or less. I know she is not going to terminate me for that reason. I don't think she set a boundary. She told me her feelings, that's all.

I know what setting a boundary is because Bt did that. It didn't help at ALL! I was very upset one session and after she left to go upstairs, I sat down in her waiting room to write my check and almost started to cry. I felt so awful that I couldn't leave. I felt glued to the couch. This was her house, but clients could sit there. I stayed because I wanted her to see me crying since I've never cried in therapy. But she didn't come back until her next client was due, and I had stopped by then. I didn't want to leave but I stood by her front door. She told me I had to go, so I did because her next client was there. That night, she called and told me that she couldn't work with me if I crossed that boundary. I understand that, and I never did it again, but she missed the boat with me! She could have spent 5 minutes or even 1, asking me why I couldn't leave, and why I felt like crying, and what could she do to help me? Instead, she just enforced her boundary and I felt devastated. It didn't help me one bit in working on my issues.

So, maybe I DO feel like my needs ARE more important than respecting T's boundary. I've never been able to talk about that in therapy, but now I will. You've given me a lot to think about. I don't need anyone defending me in this thread. Moose has raised some good points. We don't have to defend or argue with one another. I'm okay with this thread. I really am, so I hope everyone else is too.

Rainbow I have not been replying to your thread but I want to let you know that I relate to your difficulties and your compulsions surrounding this and I understand how this can be so difficult to deal with. Right now I also have the urge to RANT but I'm holding my tongue. I just want you to know that I do not JUDGE you or think anyone has the right to do that. I did the same looking my T up and seeing her house on Google maps and when I told her, she said that I had every right to public information about her. If it's on the Internet, it's not private, and she knows that. You are not going to drive by her house. So I don't see a problem.

Thank you, Jexa. But there IS a problem because if I wasn't told about Google maps I MAY have driven past her house. I'm not sure. I appreciate your telling me you did this, told your T, and that she was okay with it.

You know, I am stepping out of this section and off this site.

You said you "scared your T" -- it appears that most are not seeing that as a problem? The lady said she was scared. ... doesn't that bother you?

Whatever. It bothers me that this forum is so "clicky" that people are afraid to challenge the behaviors of people..even when the T said she was scared and was trying to set boundaries. Telling you that your behavior is ok, when clearly your T was scared is not support, but enabling.

Support is not always patting people on the back, but challenging the behaviors that in this case were wrong... as a few did.

I never said your T would dump you, I don't know your T. I said you scared her...and that you broke trust. Relationships are made on trust and respect. Not secrets, denial, and breaking boundaries.

People choose their behaviors, and instead of choosing an alternative option and later talking about your desire, you choose to continue the behavior that upset your T (googling her house and maps).

Oh, by the way, EVERY relationship has boundaries and each set of boundaries are different depending on the relationship.

And just because someone sets a boundary, does not mean you don't talk about it. A person can set a boundary that says "don't touch me when I am sitting backwards." A perfectly acceptable boundary. Talking about it lets both people understand it --- but the boundary still exists.

And my final statement -- not all boundaries have to be explicitly stated as "This is a boundary!" People stating that doing something scares them or makes them uncomfortable is setting a boundary. If you told your husband that hitting you in the face scared you, that has clearly set a boundary, just as if someone says calling me after 10:00 PM frightens me --- these are implied boundaries.

Life is full of boundaries. How we choose to behave around them is what makes relationships.

Good luck.

Very well put, Rainbow. Im glad you posted. I think you really hit the nail on the head about boundaries with bt and also with dt for me. Her boundaries were what she needed to do for her (that is what she told me once) and it wasnt that I couldnt respect that, but her infinite strict boundaries seemed counterproductive to therapy. It didnt consider me or what I needed. Just how far could I go in therapy with her if I was always walking on eggshells? No wonder I wanted so much more from her, I just wanted her to show she cared for ME and saw ME. Just like it was at the scene of the crime.

How unfortunate that bt did this kind of therapy. Now, you know Im not dismissing all of the good she did, but her boundaries were somewhat like a desk without a desk. It seems like she just didnt have the tools to know what to do with you when you stayed in her office and setting a rigid boundary was all she knew to do. Im sorry about this and I really feel for you, I really do, having gone through all of this with dt, too.

i think i'm annoyed that i wasted time reading this post and responding with thoughtful comments. i find it frustrating when certain people are "called out" by the original poster, but the rest of us that took the time to read, write, and respond are somewhat insulted. i'm annoyed that you said "so-and-so" was the only one who mentioned this being an issue about a connection to your mom, when i was the first person to (try to) take the tread in that direction. i think singling out certain people and saying "you're the only one that gets it" or "thank you only to you" isn't the right thing to do. i think we should all be grateful of eachothers' support and words of encouragement. sorry that i'm using this thread to bring up the issue, but i just thought it was worth mentioning.

seventyeight

holding my tongue....between my teeth.....

Strict boundaries?
Strict boundaries are: you can't call outside the session, you can't send email, you can't write your thoughts down, session starts and ends at time, client pays every session...., etc.

She is setting boundaries about intruding upon her personal space. That is normal behavior.

And as the T, she has the right to set boundaries that make her feel safe in her practice. She has different boundaries with different clients.
If you don't like it, instead of working through it by talking about it and choosing the behavior that is respectful, look for a therapist that seems to fit your boundaries. Because this is what you are doing, in essence already. Choosing the boundaries you want.

I am very happy with my T, Moosetracks. I'm sorry you're so angry right now, and I wish you peace.

Moose - I'm curious to know what's being stirred up in you from all this. It seems as though you want to "win" an argument, but there does not need to be a winner or loser. Or, that you are trying desperately to be heard, understood, have your points validated.

What Rainbow chooses to do or how she feels is hers to own. Certainly exploration is worthwhile, but I find that I would be more receptive to "difficult to hear" feedback when it's delivered in a caring and compassionate way.

Just curious if this topic (or even just the general tone of the exchange, regardless of the actual content) has stirred up something within your own life that is helping you to feel so passionate about it, that may be worth exploring.

As am I, BIGTIME!

hugs to you rainbow!

Moosetracks- That is not what I was referring to as strict boundaries (calling outside of a sesison, emails etc), I was referring to another experience with another therapist that I had. I do see though that is the definition of strict boundaries as you understand it.

When I first came to PC I found that I could understand other people, their posts and the background to their issues by speaking more from my own personal experience. I didnt really know enough about their experiences or that of other posters for me to comment, make assumptions or come to conclusions about them or their therapists. At lease until I was around for a while to get to know their stories.

Personally, I dont see a problem with finding a T who has boundaries that I am comfortable with and not seeing a T with boundaries I am not comfortable with.

Actually I am not angry.

I am disgusted that you think it is ok to "scare your T" and then continue the behaviors --trying to justify the choice you made to continue look at your T's house and invade her space.

You have very little remorse for your choice of behaviors. You feel better that you saw her house and you will talk about it after doing it. You knew what you were doing and you choose to do it anyway. You had very little respect for another person -- your T.

And I am disgusted that many people here do not see your behaviors a problem-- even though you "scared your T."

It may be only a "google house image" but it's the disrespect for the boundaries and personal space of another individual.

As one other poster said (I believe Mike) -- "Caring about someone means you do what is right for them, not what will make you feel good, that is the definition of being selfish. "

And whether your T drops you or not, is really not the point.


I think in general I have a problem with people who ignore the boundaries of others for their own gain. Period.

Most people who abuse others or harm others fall into this category and do not see a problem in breaking boundaries. Boundaries and personal space do not matter to them.

Oops, I am sorry Rainbow...I did forget myself for a few minutes and did not mean to speak as though you are not reading the thread (YOUR thread) too ...hugs to you!

Moosetracks, I think you've gone off-topic with this thread, and are posting to serve (unconsciously) some personal needs of your own (your personal grief is clear to see) rather than--as it's coming across--trying to contribute to helping Rainbow or the issue in general. You are very angry about what you perceive as significant boundary violations by Rainbow. Whatever is going on with you, you're revealing a serious personal issue; you're obviously in great, great pain, too. Rainbow started the whole thread about the great fear she has that she's done something so horrible; she was in great distress. Your tone isn't helping anyone; maybe they're making things more difficult. Regardless, I think you're, though unintentionally, inappropriately using this thread to serve a topic of your own at this point. I think you should start a new thread to address the very real issues surrounding boundaries that concern you and not take this thread of Rainbow's any further away from where it began. That way we can help you and get your story and views from where you're coming from rather than you receiving a negative reaction as is happening here. You need support and advice I think, but this thread isn't going to get that for you. Your own thread is the place for that.

I totally understand this perspective. My ex is a prime example of crossing boundaries, and my T has pointed this out to me numerous times - especially noting that the boundary crossing was for his gain, and that combining that with his pathology is dangerous.

My ex, though, doesn't see that he has an issue with crossing boundaries, or with compulsions, or that it's even disrespectful in any way to me. He simply just doesn't get it...and that's incredibly frustrating.

Which I guess may be a reason why I have such great hope for Rainbow...one, because she's recognizing the behavior...trying to explore what is causing it....trying to deal with it the best way she can...and I also don't see Rainbow's intent as malicious, unlike my ex who is hurtful to me...

Is it still boundary crossing? Perhaps! But also, considering where she is, I see this as progress....