[peaches100]

I know this probably sounds crazy or stupid but. . .

how can you know if a person is "safe?" I'm thinking in particular about whether someone is safe for the young, hurt, child-like, vulnerable part of us inside.

There's a part of myself that i've hidden away for decades because when i've allowed that part of me to feel and be alive and interact with other people, and attach to them, i've gotten terribly hurt. It's a very sensitive part of me (too sensitive, by this world's standards). I guess a long time ago, on a subconscious level, i decided that i was too sensitive for this world and could not get along in it. . .so i shut that part of me off, buried it or whatever. . .)

Anyway, since my breakdown and entering therapy, i've discovered this lost part of myself. My t has been trying over the years to get me to trust her enough to allow this part of me expression, to let the hurt out, and basically try again to be my whole self and connect with another person. But whenever i begin to feel close to her, or i let this hurting vulnerable side of me out, i later feel anxious and find a way to pull back and put my armor back on.

I know this is standing in my way because i know i need to let the hurt out and allow the trust and soothing and be my whole self. But i have been hurt so much by people i trusted that i'm terrified of taking any risks in relationships now. It's like, even though my t is offering the hurt part of me what i need to heal, another part panicks. And so she "undoes" the good that the hurt part of me needs.

The basic problem, i think i've realized, is that i don't know what a "safe person" is. I don't know how to tell if a person is "safe." I don't think as a child, anybody ever explained it to me . . .or even as an adult. I've tried over the years to tell if somebody was safe, but i've gotten burned badly a number of times. . .to the point now where I'm paranoid of getting close to anyone. I don't trust myself to know if somebody is safe because i've been wrong so much in the past. So i isolate and bury that vulnerable sad part of me as a way to prevent any potential hurt. That's why i'm struggling so much in therapy. Because if i can't tell what safe is, or who is safe, then i can't fully relax or trust even in my t. I can't let her work with the hurting, messed up parts of me.

What is SAFE? What is a SAFE PERSON?

I used to think if a person was nice, they were safe. My t is nice. But my abuser was also nice. My t makes me feel good and happy. But so did my abuser at times.

I looked up "safe" in the dictionary and it said free from harm or evil. I know my t isn't harmful or evil. But the dictionary also said "unhurt" and "free from risk." There have been times when my t said or did something that really hurt me (even though we talked it over later and i felt better). And i don't see my relationship with my t as "without risk." I know she will eventually retire and terminate with me. That is going to hurt very badly. So allowing myself to trust and get close to her "IS" a risk.

Is it even possible to find a safe person that you can be sure is not going to hurt you, and where there is no risk? Because that's what the dictionary says "safe" means.?????

I know other people just go on their gut feelings to tell if somebody is safe. But i can't do that!! My gut has told me the wrong thing too many times. I've been so hurt that now my gut tells me everybody is "unsafe"!

PLEASE, can somebody help me figure this out? I hate being guarded and in armor with my t. I also hate trusting her and then pulling back all the time.

I don't know what to do.

[Sannah]

Peaches, the people in your past who you opened up to were not healthy? Opening up to these people actually feels better because unhealthy people are incapable of intimacy. (Actually it seems that someone who is unhealthy and who can open up will only open up with those who are unable to be intimate). But opening up to an unhealthy person will cause pain and problems (as you have experienced). Your therapist is healthy and this is why you don't want to open up to her because then you will have intimacy? I had to work through this. I chased after unhealthy people because healthy people caused me to feel distress. In order for me to be able to open up to healthy people I had to work through my fears of intimacy which involved my self worth. So I worked on my self worth.......

[sittingatwatersedge]

((((((((((((((((((((( dear Peaches )))))))))))))))))))))))))

it's a perfectly good question. I am so sorry to hear all this pain in you.

Of all the zillions of people on PC I am probably the last one to talk about trust at all. But here is what came to mind when I read your post.

I am blessed to know a wonderful man. We're the same age but that's where the similarity ends. I admire him greatly. He was a Green Beret so he is unusually wise and brave. He is patient and kindly; he has a beautiful, strong faith; is a devoted husband and father. It has taken me about 20 years to trust him as a friend, but I do trust him.

He said to me once, "I have been told that I don't trust people. but I do trust people; I trust them to be what they show themselves to be, every day, day in and day out." Simple advice but rather profound. I hope so much that it helps you.

Oh - and also this: if you are wanting to open up to yur T this way, I think you can do it eventually - but in your own time. In the meantime maybe you could talk to T about the fears you have of eventual termination etc, and maybe fear can change to resolution, one way or another. Please take your time. You don't have to take any scary plunges. hugs to you

[doogie]

"I have been told that I don't trust people. but I do trust people; I trust them to be what they show themselves to be, every day, day in and day out."

This is kind of what I was thinking about my T. I don't trust words - words are crap. Anyone can SAY anything. I trust actions. What people do. I have learned to trust my T by what she has done. It has been very slow. But we have built - well, are still building, trust everytime we interact. Everytime she does what she says she will do. Every time she doesn't hurt me intentionally - I add intentionally there because there have been time when she has "hurt" me with her words but it has not been intentional like my abusers. I have shared little things, she has not run off screaming into the night. She has shown that she can be trusted with little things, so I open up a little more. There are still things I haven't told her, because we are still working on that trust. But to me, a person's actions over time will show if they are safe. It's a really, really, good question.

[peaches100]

So. . .if a person's actions speak over time. . .how long does it take to know for sure if somebody is safe?

One person i trusted was very good to me for 5 years and then suddenly abandoned me in a fit of rage. It was so unexpected and feeled like it would kill me!!!!!! How come i didn't know before then???? Was i missing something???? Does it take YEARS to know if someone is safe???

Also. . .Most people are not willing to wait years for a person to learn to trust them. T's are different in that regard.

Are there ways to know earlier if a person is safe???

[geez]

Thank you peaches for posting this thread. I too have these questions and I have found the responses to be great!

[purple_fins]

this may not pertain to you or anyone else, I don't know..
just thought I'd share my experience....

I was traumatized mostly by those that should have loved and protected me, I was neglected and abused. and in response, I didn't/don't truly trust anyone fully... no one is really "safe".
wrong or right-- that's how I am.

anyway-- I think I'm learning that what's more important is NOT determining if someone is really safe(I think the armour I possess is fairly permanent- from toddler-hood) ....
BUT....
how I will handle each situation-- how strong am I to cope with a hurt by someone else.... (I'm still not too strong, don't even have a IRL friend yet.... but I'm working on things)
I think what this frame of mind does for me is give me the "POWER" and not leave it up to the other person to have the power.

does that make sense??
I don't know if it's the best way to be-- I've not talked to the T. about this, but I think it's the way I can best exist at this time.

just thought I'd give my experience........

peace to all,
fins

[BlackCanary]

Hey, I think it's what PurpleFins has for a tag line

If you keep on doing what you've done- you'll keep on getting what you've got.

If you open up and trust and let the little one out, you have a chance for something different. Yes, there is risk. If you trust this T more than anyone else, then you've probably found the safest person you will find.

My 100% safe person is my husband. He still can "hurt" me, on purpose or by accident, but we can talk about it safely. My vulnerable self was visible to my originalT. He left for a new job some weeks later - but he did welcome her presence and make her feel safe for a short time.

[WePow]

Safe for me is the same as trust. I can't do yes and no. I have to do a scale of 5-95. That way I never have anyone who can't go one way or the other. The higher they are on my scale, the more exposed I will be with them. When they do something that hurts me, I go back into my shell and stick the person outside my walls.

[peaches100]

Sannah,

Hmmm. So your post made me wonder if I'm afraid of intimacy. It does seem like I can open up much more to people i don't know well or who are not safe. yeeeeesh. Then i have a terrible experience and end up even more pathologically self-protective. Maybe self-esteem does enter the picture. i don't know. I think i've felt rejected so many times that the straw finally broke the camel's back and now i have trouble getting out of my shell even when i want to trust and feel safe. i have such thick walls around me.

Sitting,

That makes sense. . .to accept what a person displays in their behavior day in and day out. That's what t told me on Wednesday when i asked her this question. She asked me questions about how she has treated me over time. Like has she been here when she says she will be? Has she showed caring about my feelings? Has she ever ridiculed me? Has she ever told me i shouldn't feel the way i do? Does she ever touch me without asking? etc. It really helped me to put together her actions over time into my mind and realize that i really am safe with her.

Doogie,

Yes, i get what you're saying. It's not so much what somebody says, but what they do. My t has unintentionally hurt my feelings a few times, and it always sent me running back behind my armor. I think a part of me (an unrealistic part) feels that somebody has to be 100% with me, never hurting my feelings. Like if something "hurts" inside, then automatically a part of me says "HURT - UNSAFE! UNSAFE!" And feeling rejected by others in my life has felt sooo, sooo bad that a small, vulnerable part of me wants a relationship that will never ever hurt me again. I know it's not realistic.

Geez,

I'm glad you can relate. It makes me feel not so crazy.


Purplefins,

So are you saying that you don't evaluate the danger of the other person. . .but instead you evaluation your own strength to withstand the danger? That's a completely new thought to me. I'm trying to wrap my head around it. Can you say more about it?

Blackcanary,

You're so right. Your words really made me stop and think. I've been doing this pathological, self-protective, isloation thing for a long time and it's making me lose out on so much good care and good feelings and healing from my t. It's also keeping me from making any new friends. I am "safe" that way, but it doesn't really feel like "living." More like just "existing" or being in limbo. Meanwhile, time is running out with my t. I've been with her for 10+ years now and she'll be retiring in another year or so. It's going to be the saddest thing in the world if when i terminate i realize i could never truly benefit from all those years in therapy because i could never truly open up and trust enough to allow her in.

So. . .i took a chance in my session this week. i did open up and i cried and cried and let her hold my hand and help soothe me. It's a real act of courage for me when i do that. a real act of trust to put myself out there, warts and all, and not put on that fake superficial "I'm strong and don't need anybody" mask. i still can't believe i did it.

Today, i don't know how to feel. I felt so helped and soothed on my session. But i'm not used to dropping my guard and feeling good. I think i'm afraid to let myself be too happy or feel too good. It's like a part of me feels that by doing so, i'm sluffing off and being irresponsible, and that i should be working out some problem or preparing for some situation down the road.

There's a small empty spot where i've let out some of the pain. and i don't know what to do with it. I'm fighting the urge to fill that spot back up with some kind of worry or other pain. I don't know why i have this compulsion! Why do i feel i must carry pain? when i let go of it, somehow i feel uneasy, like i am not used to not feeling worried or anxious or bad. My t wants me to do something that feels good, to play. right now i'm just sitting with the "lack of pain" feeling. it's new and something i am not used to. i think i've been in pain and worry for so long that when i am not that way, i don't know how what to do with myself.

Am i nuts?

WePow,

You have a good idea too. . .a scale. I was sort of thinking in black and white: eithe somebody is safe OR they are not. I like the idea of the scale. I might try that!

[peaches100]

The odd thing is: as much as i fight and struggle with not being able to trust and get out of my shell. . .when i finally do trust and really "let go" with t and allow some healing. . .i feel RELIEVED of pain. Yeah, it feels weird and strange because it's new not to be full of discomfort. But at the same time, i notice that desparate NEED for help and comfort from t has reduced. Now that i've allowed myself to get some of that comfort, i'm not so starving for it. I feel stronger inside myself and not so needy. It's like "a little bit goes a long way." For me, the hardest part is just being able to be open and trust enough to let myself get what i need. Then i don't need it so bad anymore.

[deliquesce]

i kind of work with a scale & also fin's idea.

e.g., if pdoc is sitting on an 80 and he does something bad then he'll drop down, but not completely. which makes it easier for me to trust him again next time, because we only need to build up a little bit. and because he's maybe dropped down to 70, then i can still trust him with other things & build back up again.

re: evaluating your own strength... even if pdoc is on an 80 (which is high for me), i might consider telling him something, but first i also look at how much *i* can cope if he lets me down. it's kind of about making sure i'm a safe person first - ie, if pdoc isn't safe for one particular thing, making sure that i can provide my own safe harbour also. if i dont think i can handle it if pdoc lets me down, then i wont disclose something (or maybe i'll disclose it gradually so i can build up slowly).

[purple_fins]

So are you saying that you don't evaluate the danger of the other person. . .but instead you evaluation your own strength to withstand the danger? That's a completely new thought to me. I'm trying to wrap my head around it. Can you say more about it?

Well, let me see if I can explain.... It's not that I don't evaluate the other person AT ALL, I do that to an extent(I do keep my sensory up in case a person could be VERY unsafe)... -- I have been learning though that what I REALLY have control over is how I react to whatever the situation is. No one can MAKE me feel anything... I do that to myself. I am totally responsible for MY feelings.

From Deli:

re: evaluating your own strength... even if pdoc is on an 80 (which is high for me), i might consider telling him something, but first i also look at how much *i* can cope if he lets me down. it's kind of about making sure i'm a safe person first - ie, if pdoc isn't safe for one particular thing, making sure that i can provide my own safe harbour also. if i dont think i can handle it if pdoc lets me down, then i wont disclose something (or maybe i'll disclose it gradually so i can build up slowly).

Wow-- Deli explained it very well. I think you must be my twin. that's how it is for me too!

I felt responsible for my own safety from age 1 on,(youngest in a split family with 7 children and a mother that was mentally ill) I quess I learned to be quite intune to people and situations and how I can cope/handle them within myself. As a child I was in some situations I had no control to keep myself safe(a couple- a guy pulling a gun on me while playing in a large vacant lot with trees, or an older brother in-law attacking me when I was to babysit there) but when I could, I would survey the person/situation and keep a check on how I was dealing with it all-- inside myself.(unfortunately dissociating if overwhelmed)
Now, being an adult(and in therapy for a few years) I just recently am kicking around the idea that maybe most places/people aren't as "dangerous" as I used to think.(am I REALLY thinking this!) and also that I have the power to react in a manner that is healthiest for me(figuring out just what is healthiest can be elusive though)

I hope that made some kind of sense.

and I hope you will find the path that feels best for you Peaches.

fins

[BlackCanary]

I know what you mean about holding on to pain, and not going into the good feelings. Good grief, I learned that from my mom. She's never, ever happy. There is always something to find fault with....

For me, I seem to need to have a "situation" to focus on, be working on, be fixing, be wallowing in.... I rarely enjoy a moment of freedom from worry because I'm so used to having it present in my life! It does happen - on vacations far away from home, or while I am jogging, or at a party at a friend's house. When I first started on prozac, I definitely felt times of freedom. But, I've drifted back into the busy, stressed out lifestyle I had before.

I guess we just have to keep trying - letting go in therapy, having happy moments in real life - until it becomes the standard. And honestly, if you think your T may retire in a year then maybe now you two put together a plan for it to be a productive, fruitful year!
good luck!!!

[CindyLuWho]

People are people. No one is perfect. You will never find someone who is 100% "safe". On a bad day, the person you trust most may yell at you. Somehow (and I wish I knew how) we need to find a balance. To trust, but also to understand that everyone has the capacity to hurt us. Ther are gradations of course... some people will intentionally hurt you time and time again. They deserve to be kicked out of your life. But your T sounds like they want to help. they will be patient. But, yes. They will leave eventually. Everyone does. In the end all we have is ourselves and we need to be comfortable with that.

I talk a good game, I'm not so good at living it out...

[Sannah]

Very good Peaches, I'm so glad that you opened up to T!!

Good awareness that you feel yourself uncomfortable with this new feeling of being pain free - good awareness! I can relate to what Canary said about feeling uncomfortable with free time. I had to work through this too. I had to learn to sit and be comfortable both with myself and with others. I'll have to think about how I did it but it did happen. My gut is telling me now that it has something to do with self worth. If you are sitting with free time you have time to be aware of yourself - yikes!

Yes, like you realize, no one is perfect and you can get hurt by others by accident (they aren't doing it on purpose) but I think that you are getting hurt by your past, not by your therapist (you are getting triggered and your pain from the past comes out). If you let this pain out in therapy it can't get triggered and then you won't be so afraid of getting hurt (because most of your hurt today is triggered hurt from yesterday).