[rainbow8]

Part of the jealousy issue is feeling inferior, or maybe it's a totally different issue. Yesterday I noticed that T was wearing makeup again. She doesn't always, but when she does, it bothers me. The following is going to sound so stupid!!!

It bothers me because I never learned how to put lipstick on right so I usually don't try any more. Friends have tried to help me, but I feel like it's not right so I blot it off. Tried lip liners, pencils, etc. I have allergies so I hate eye makeup too. I sort of decided not to wear anything except foundation and powder, and sometimes eyebrow pencil.

When I see my T with makeup, I immediately feel inferior to her and feel ashamed of myself for being so incompetent. Yesterday I felt brave enough to comment on that fact. I actually wrote it in an email recently but like I've said before, she doesn't bring up anything in my emails. I have to do it. She said I could learn, blah, blah, blah. She also said I look wonderful without makeup. I didn't even say thank you because I don't believe her yet I know she never lies to me.

I know this sounds weird, but I felt more shame about the makeup issue than about the talk about her H and breaking down the doors!! Or at least equal. I emailed her how I felt, and added my whole list about never fitting in with people, from childhood on. Like the lipstick represents all the other things I didn't do that my peers were doing: didn't know the current music, didn't wear the right clothes, didn't date in HS, was overqualified for every job I had, didn't have a nice house, and on and on. I flunked fitting in!!!!

I suppose I have to talk more about this in therapy, though of course it's come up. Can anyone relate to shame about feeling/being incompetent and inferior to your peers when growing up?

I feel ashamed of posting this but I'm in an "I don't care" mood due to my session anyway. (Me trying to appear cool but failing)

[skysblue]

Rainbow, I've never fit in either. But, unlike you, I don't try to do things I don't like or I'm not good at. I decided in HS that I didn't like makeup so I didn't. I guess I'm a bit of a non-conformist. But there are times it does feel a bit awkward. I guess I don't feel 'inferior' but just 'different'.

We were living on the edge of poverty (although my sisters and I didn't really know it) during my childhood. We didn't live in the "right" neighborhood. I ALWAYS wore hand-me-downs from the daughters of a friend of my mother. While Mom made sure we all had piano lessons by doing a bit of bartering, we never took dance lessons like all of our friends. I was very smart and always had the high grades in the class, but in junior high that is NOT cool at all. So no, I did not fit in at all.

Somewhere in high school though, I just started blowing off the criticisms of my peers and learned to find friends that were a lot like me. In high school, I found a group of fellow students who were now wanting to excel in their classes. Having the right clothes became less of an issue for me.

I have never worn much make-up either, but completely by personal preference. I just can't be bothered with all that stuff.

You are NOT that same child who has to "fit in" to feel acceptance. You can find the acceptance within yourself.

[BlessedRhiannon]

I don't think I've ever really fit in.

In high school, I never knew anything about popular music or clothes, and honestly, really just didn't care. I didn't date, either. I had a very small circle of friends, and I was, honestly, a nerd.

I've always been overqualified for jobs, but I don't have enough confidence in myself to pursue the jobs that would challenge me.

Sometimes, as a kid, it bothered me that I didn't fit it. I think I was more afraid of being ridiculed, than really caring about the latest trends, though. Unfortunately, that fear of ridicule is what lead to ED, SI, anxiety, and...well...all the other crap I'm trying to finally deal with.

When I was in college, it bothered me more that I didn't fit in very well, and I did try to make some small changes. I dated, I learned how to put on makeup, be stylish, etc. But, it really wasn't me. It was an act so that I could fit in.

Now, I don't mind so much that I'm a little quirky and don't really fit in with a lot of people. I have close friends that I do relate to, and they accept my quirkiness. I still get jealous sometimes, of people that just seem to "get it" and fit in and everything.

As for how I feel about that jealousy or feeling inferior or incompetent, I don't feel shame about those feelings, I feel shame about how I dealt with those feelings. Mostly, I feel anger that no one noticed when I was a kid how much I was struggling and how much it affected me. I feel anger and sadness that I had to figure all this crap out on my own, because no one noticed, no one cared enough to help me.

ask her to teach you how to do it...i said the same thing to my t about the things i missed growing up & the skills i never learned...she offered to show me how to do make up if i wanted to...

at 53...i suppose i could learn if i really wanted to...but while i feel bad about the things i have missed in life i doubt make up while it bothers me is really a skill i need since i have gotten this far without it....

but i did thank her for the offer...she has offered for other life skills too...things my parents should have taught me but never did...

jealous of her? maybe slightly but more sad that i have missed out on these things but yet proud that i have managed to make it this far on my own'

i don't fit in anyplace...never have...now honestly i don't worry about...i am me. it's who i am...too short, too fat, too me for any groups...my hair is too short, i'm a little too loud, dress a little too different, got a little too odd views on things etc....

i have strong views & opinions on certain topics. i will defend my friends to the death. hurt my dogs & i will hurt you. i am me...i like me...if you do that's fine. if you don't, well that's ok too.

[SophiaG]

well if your T never lies to you then you really *do* look good without lipstick.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Can anyone relate to shame about feeling/being incompetent and inferior to your peers when growing up?

Yes, when growing up, but not now?

One of the hardest lessons I ever learned was that everything we want to do takes lots of practice to do well and you decide to try things at different times from other people.

My stepmother use to sometimes make me help make dinner when I was a young teen (1963-64ish) and often would give me the potatoes to peel. I was really awkward using the potato peeler; I'm left handed and the scrapers they had back then, the cheap ones, are not easy for anyone to use, much less a beginner and the scrapings would get caught and the peeler not work anymore, I'd "overshoot" and scrape my knuckles or gouge out pieces of potato, etc. it was just a miserable job for me. It did not help that my stepmother would feel I was too slow (and not much "help") and she'd pick up a paring knife and zip through skinning an entire potato in a quarter of the time it took me with the peeler.

So, fast forward 30+ years; guess who doesn't feel competent and hates peeling potatoes? However, my husband loves mashed potatoes So, occasionally, for love of him, I'd be there (mid-90's) peeling potatoes. One such long, frustrating session (and not like I'm peeling for a family of 4-5 anymore either, just the two of us!) I'm peeling, have my forearms resting on the sink, my back's aching and I'm not interested in standing anymore, etc. and it suddenly occurred to me that my stepmother was a master cook, had undoubtedly peeled hundreds of potatoes by the time I was 13 (1963-64), and I could peel potatoes more easily if I wanted, if I practiced!

Here I had been hating peeling potatoes because it showed how incompetent I was but it didn't show anything of the sort! It just showed that I hadn't peeled very many potatoes before, I was a beginning potato peeler (BPP :-)

Same for me with the make-up. No one showed me; one of my bridesmaids had to come and put my makeup on when I got married at age 39! I had bought something like $250 worth of makeup, thinking I would suddenly start wearing it? How???? Even though they sat me down in the specialty salon and "showed" me how; we think because we are adults and intellectually understand and see all those people around us our age, younger, and older doing something that we should be able to do it too! Right out of the box, no instruction needed? That's crazy!

Then there's the less obvious stuff. My mother died when I was 3 and my father remarried when I was 5. I have three older brothers and have a picture of myself, about age 2-3 where I look just like "one of the boys" Guess what, in high school I carried my books at my side (like a boy) instead of in front of my chest like the other girls did. Talk about embarrassed. I tried to change the habit many times but couldn't remember all the time and would suddenly notice I was carrying my books "wrong".

How about the fact that my stepmother made a great many of my clothes? She was an excellent seamstress too, but still, the clothes were homemade, had that quality about them, the fabric or hang wasn't quite right? One year she got into hat making and made me a fur hat the year (mid-1960's) they were in style but mine definitely wasn't! She was so proud of it too, it was one of my Christmas presents and here I was stuck in the middle; not wanting to hurt her feelings and not wanting to be caught dead in it

Your T can probably do lots of things you cannot and you can probably do things T cannot? It's all a matter of what you were/were not taught (and not being taught is not a bad thing! There are only so many things one can learn and if growing up is difficult as it is, learning some things other's seem to pick up can be like how some just naturally get good grades when we had to struggle in this or that subject?) or what you were interested in, when.

Keep practicing with the lipstick and wear it no matter how you like/dislike how you think you look! I remember when my T got her hair cut and I thoughtlessly commented on how I didn't like it as well as her "usual" cut? She instantly, almost eagerly, replied that she didn't either! So, when someone else likes/doesn't like something, remember that that is from where they are coming from and isn't related to whether you like/don't like something. Maybe say to a good girlfriend, "I don't like how this lipstick looks" or "I don't like this shade on me, what do you think?" and then have a discussion. Or, if you aren't thinking your lipstick is looking as well as another's, complement the other person and ask their secrets!

That's how we fit in; when we were in school we didn't really have those interests (for whatever reason) but now we may. I still remember when my stepmother started reading in her 60's and 70's! My father and I were great readers and she was wishing to be I guess (instead of such a doer; she was getting less able to do so much because of her age/physical limitations so what do you fill your time with? Why not try reading) and that was great. I was finally able to give her some of my favorite novels to try and she liked them too. So, instead of not getting along so well as we had when I was a teen, we had a lot more in common to discuss.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

...never fitting in with people, from childhood on. Like the lipstick represents all the other things I didn't do that my peers were doing: didn't know the current music, didn't wear the right clothes, didn't date in HS, was overqualified for every job I had, didn't have a nice house, and on and on. I flunked fitting in!!!!

I relate. I have struggled to fit in all my life. Trying to keep up with my peers - but somehow never quite getting it right. I grew up on a farm, in a small property that was never 'nice', and my folks never had much money. Mum left when I was 12 or so, and after that I only saw her a couple times a week.

That Lady Gaga song (Born This Way) that starts "My mama told me when I was young, we were all born superstars, she rolled my hair, put my lipstick on, in the glass of her boudoir..." << that actually UPSETS me. Because I never had that with my mum. She never treated me like a young woman, we never played dress up, she never taught me how to do my makeup -- and when I used to ask to try these things as a little girl, she would pull faces and say that makeup made little girls look like wh***s. Even clothes-wise, when I wanted to look nice she would declare that it wasn't 'a fashion parade.' I sometimes think, how could my mum not understand that her little girl wanted to look pretty?

When I started getting acne in highschool I'd spend what little money I had on makeup to cover it, and went through a real awkward phase of experimenting and getting the wrong colours, applying too much.. etc. Makeup became a necessary mask for me as my self esteem plummeted in those years. I focused a lot of energy on trying to get it right. Learning to be a REAL girl. I'm 26 now, and I'm still not sure I get it right. I still don't feel like a real girl/woman. I never mastered lipstick either - for whatever reason it just doesn't look right on me, whatever colour I use, lipliner, whatever - I too always feel too self conscious about it and have to blot it off. So, I focus on my eyes instead. (Rainbow, try looking for hypoallergenic makeup maybe? Maybe the natural mineral type?)

And mum? She still makes fun of the fact that I won't leave the house without a full face on, and that I won't go in the supermarket in my farm/scruffy clothes. She does wear some makeup, and her dress sense isn't so bad, although not really fashion-forward, but I still I can't get her to go and get a proper styled haircut or use hair straighteners. I guess my mum is kind of a tomboy, and I do wish that I'd have had more of a feminine role model growing up -- someone who would have enjoyed teaching me how to apply makeup, would have took me shopping for nice bras and things, to the hair salon, would have seen me starting to struggle with my weight and my skin and would have made an effort to do something about it. Just typical mother/daughter stuff. I feel like she abandoned me somewhat, let me flail around and get things wrong. Sometimes it's a kind of role reversal because she'll now ask ME for advice on some of this stuff.

Erm...I feel like I might've gone off-topic somewhat...?

ANYWAY! Thankfully my T isn't one of those ultra made-up types, because I think that would intimidate me - she's more naturally elegant I guess. She is feminine and classy and well presented, and sometimes: yes she has worn lipstick - which of course she can totally pull off - like a 'real' woman. (And I bet T wouldn't have let her daughter go to school with an orange face...)(OMG so does this mean it IS mommy transferance?! )

[BlessedRhiannon]

Originally Posted by Perna

It's all a matter of what you were/were not taught (and not being taught is not a bad thing! There are only so many things one can learn and if growing up is difficult as it is, learning some things other's seem to pick up can be like how some just naturally get good grades when we had to struggle in this or that subject?) or what you were interested in, when.

Perna, thank you for this post! It made me realize something.......my Mom's mom died when my Mom was maybe 10 years old. No one taught her all the girly stuff and no one probably cared if she fit in or not or showed her how to. So...it probably never even occurred to her to do those things for me! She wasn't taught those things, why would it even occur to her to teach her own daughter. Maybe this will help me to let go of some of the anger I have at my Mom for just never noticing "me" as a kid. Maybe it really never occurred to her!

Okay, sorry, didn't mean to hijack this thread, this just really struck me!

[rainbow8]

Thanks for all the great responses. They help me to see that I'm not so weird after all. I felt like deleting my thread at after I wrote it but I'm glad I didn't.

skysblue: I feel different too. That sounds less shameful than inferior. I don't care as much as I did when I was younger, but I still get triggered. These old tapes stay with us forever sometimes, it seems.

farmergirl: Your post almost makes me cry. I usually don't care and I am just myself (I mean,really! A grandma who worries about fitting in?), but those feelings followed me into adulthood and get triggered sometimes. I know it doesn't matter if I wear makeup or not but I don't like being different--still. Isn't it strange how we get physically older but those child parts are still there, acting like kids!? I'm talking about me, not you--and generalizing.

BR: Thank you for sharing. I'm sorry no one helped you when you needed it. No one helped me enough either. Growing up is hard the first time, and harder when we have to do it over again in therapy.

stumpy: I like your attitude. Like my H says: it's none of my business what others think of me. I forgot where that quote comes from. Yeah, makeup doesn't matter any more, but I feel "less than", not wearing it sometimes, especially when my T is. I'd be too scared to ask her to help me with it. I'm not afraid of her, but I don't think I could do that. I don't know. I sang to her, and I thought I would NEVER do that! Maybe I will bring some lipsticks to a session and see what happens. I probably could do that with her, on second thought.

Sophia: thank you. I wonder if she meant that I don't look my age, which I don't. I do think I look better with lipstick, when I do wear it.

Perna: your post is great! That's so funny; a BPP! Thank you for sharing so much about your life that is really helpful. I guess if I had worn lipstick every day as a teen I would know how to do it now. So obvious but I didn't think of it that way. I am a pretty good cook and I have a friend who is in her late 60's, recently remarried, who says "I don't cook, and I never did". It doesn't bother her at all! She could learn but doesn't want to. I don't know if I really want to learn to put on lipstick or not because even though it's Clinique, it seems to irritate me. So maybe I have to forget it except when we go out I feel like I have to wear it so I look like everyone else. It's not such a major deal, just embarrasses me.

just_some_girl: Oh, another post that almost makes me cry. I am so grateful for these responses from everyone!! Really and truly I felt so ashamed starting this thread!! I only use Clinique makeup which is hypoallergenic. Eye makeup bothers me. I have a lot of allergies and take pills and shots!! You're only 26, but you sound a lot older and you're not "just some girl". I think you're very special!

BR again: You're not hijacking! I'm glad what Perna wrote helped you.

[WePow]

Bless your heart. That feeling is so hard to carry inside. I had a very abusive H who called me ugly and tons of other very bad things that went along with that. I understand how it is hard emotionally to be around other females who we see as being what we want to be.

The thing about it though is that we are all different. You have things about you that your T will never have. You have qualities that she will never have. Some of those qualities may be things she sees in you which make her jeleous even.

(((((((Rainbow))))))))

I'm glad you posted!

I definitely, definitely never felt like I fit in. I *knew* that something about my life was different from other people's (although I didn't understand what until I was in jr high/high school). Just that made me feel different.

My mom was NOT interested in helping me look "pretty" so I had UGLY clothes, shoes, etc. I remember on the first day of 5th grade I walked in and everyone made fun of what I was wearing

When I was in high school, I didn't understand make up at ALL, so I just didn't wear it, because I thought I looked stupid for trying. I *just* started wearing eyeliner like ONE MONTH ago. Seriously!

And now that my son is in high school, there is this whole world of parents I have contact with and I really don't feel like I "fit in". I live in a really small, basic house...I don't have fancy decorations or want them. But my son has friends who live in these huge houses that look like they were decorated by a design team. I feel SO "different" from the parents of those friends, and it's hard not to feel "less than". It's something I've been struggling with.

BUT, I have a group of close friends who accept me and love me exactly how I am. EXACTLY how I am. In my little house, with my lack of makeup and my jeans and t-shirts. And really, that's all I *need*. I do wish I could feel more comfortable with myself in general, but even if I never do, being accepted by my friends is enough.

So, yeah, I can SO relate. I still struggle with it, but I think it's slowly getting a little bit better. I still have a long way to go, though.

[learning1]

Rainbow thanks for your wonderful post. I still struggle over thinking I should learn to wear makeup better at age 40. Just bought some more to try last week. When I was growing up I didn't have money for much makeup or clothes, had really bad skin, didn't know how to do my hair like the other girls, and generally felt ugly. Mom didn't help me and Dad thought it was sacreligious (I'm exaggerating a little) to spend money on clothes. Feminism helped make it more acceptable to look natural in college. I definitely identify with what you said about still feeling bad about not fitting in. It's getting better, but it hasn't gone away. I wonder if it's possible for society to not leave so many teenagers feeling like that. I think it probably is, but there'd be long way to go.

[Sannah]

Rainbow!! You figured this out!! I am so impressed!! When I read it I thought, "that makes so much sense"!! You will work through this Rainbow. Wow, I'm so impressed!! I will remember this too because I don't know much about jealousy and you just explained it to me!!

Rainbow, you are really growing up here in therapy. Right now you are probably 8? You were just an infant a month ago. You are doing such good work!!

Erikson's developmental stage - Competence: Industry vs. Inferiority - Self confidence is developed at this stage, ages 6-12.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Can anyone relate to shame about feeling/being incompetent and inferior to your peers when growing up?

I didn't wear make-up when growing up, as it wasn't permitted by my parents. So I never got in the habit and still don't wear it much today. If I wear anything, it will be some light foundation, because I have really poor skin tone and the foundation helps even it out. I don't feel inferior for not wearing make-up, though. I know this is not fair, but I think of people who wear a lot of make-up as being superficial--so concerned with their outward appearance that they have to use 8 different products on their face before they step out of the house. I prefer genuine people who aren't so concerned with appearances. If I had a therapist who wore a lot of make up, I might not like that because they would seem superficial to me. I know there are so many generalizations and biases in what I just wrote... I just have this association from school days--the girls who wore make-up were all giggly and silly and talked about boys and make-up and dieting all the time. They were boring to me. As for clothes, I had an older brother and two sisters and wore all their hand-me-downs. I just came to not care much for clothing and even as an adult I dress kind of like a slob! I guess it goes down to the superficiality thing again. If someone spends so much money and time on clothes, they must be superficial--that is how my logic goes (distorted, I know).

I never really fit in at school or really anywhere. I try not to let it bother me. I have good attributes even if I don't fit in. As for feeling inferior to T, I do in some ways. I feel, for example, that I would not want to be his friend outside of session. I would feel "not good enough" for him. Like he is so much more together than I am and I have so much dysfunction, like I can't even keep my house clean. I just feel he is on another level and I wouldn't be up to that. I think his friends and family must be much better than I am, as he is a great guy, so he would be surrounded by great people. In therapy, I don't have to worry about that, thank goodness. He gets paid to help me whether I am up to his level or not!

Rainbow, I think if you want to wear make-up, you could. It's not too late to learn! You can go to a cosmetics counter at a department store, and they could help you with technique. I went once to get help with the really dark circles under my eyes and it was a painful experience. The lady get patting under my eyes--a very sensitive area--with her fingers in a really vigorous way. On and on. She was trying to plump up the skin, she said. I don't know why. It really hurt and I was sore for days. I was too embarrassed to stop her from hurting me, as I thought well maybe this pain is what women have to endure daily if they want to look good (like how some women wear really painful shoes?) and I should just deal with it. Never again. (I still don't get why you need to smack yourself repeatedly beneath your eyes in order to wear concealer. I just don't get make-up! LOL) I realize what I just wrote is not very encouraging.

[unaluna]

It is a little weird having a male T who uses more "product" (his word) than you (a female) do!

[rainbow8]

Thanks; I'll write more later--baby-sitting soon.

But Sannah, please explain more. What did I figure out about jealousy, and competence, and the stages? Thanks. Or PM me. I'm not sure what you mean.

[rainbow8]

WePow: thank you for understanding. You're right. We each have different quailites that make us who we are. My former T even told me something she was jealous of about my family.

tree: I'm sorry you were made fun of in school. Thank you for sharing. I also have my friends now who like me the way I am. It's just sometimes I get triggered by women who look like who I wanted to look like in the past. My T usually doesn't wear makeup and is very casual and non-threatening to me. The times she does wear it I have noticed that I've reacted the same way and this time I got brave and told her.

learning: Wow! I was SO afraid and ashamed to post what I did, even here where it's anonymous. I feel glad that others can relate, but sad that we had to feel the way we did, and still do, at least in my case.

Sannah: Again, please tell me what I figured out that you're so impressed with because I'm not sure! Thank you!

sunrise: Thank you for sharing so much about yourself. Here on PC I've learned that it's what's inside that counts, since we usually don't know what we look like, and how much makeup or what kinds of clothes we wear. I also have that prejudice against people wearing a ton of makeup but it's more like I feel no one who looks like that would like me. They move in different circles, which is okay. My friends are similar to me in the way they look and dress. I understand your belief that those people are superficial but it's probably as you say, distorted. Do you know anyone in that category who does NOT fit your stereotype?

I'm way too embarrassed to ask at the cosmetic counter. I've had friends help me at times through the years but I still am not comfortable with the way I look with makeup. I emailed my T that I want her to help me, or at least tell me how I look with lipstick. I've never worn it to a session. I'm really scared to!!! My former T gave me a lip gloss and said it looked good on me! I have an eye concealer.. I just put in on and rub gently when I use it, which is rarely I can't believe they hurt you like that!! It doesn't make sense to me. Maybe someone here knows.

hankster: that's funny! What "products" does your T use?

[mixedup_emotions]

((( Rainbow )))

I'm so glad to see that you took a risk in posting this and have gotten such wonderful, supportive feedback. PC is awesome like that.

I love what WePow said....I'm going to have to give that some consideration, because I too have found myself angry and jealous over T's life - especially when my life is crumbling around me.....

((( HUGS )))

[Flooded]

I can relate to a lot of what's posted too.

I was more interested in fishing when I was growing up than dresses or make up and mum got sick when I was 9 and passed away 6 years later then I was surrounded by males for the rest of my teen years. All my friends where male too. Now I still am surrounded by males in my h and kids and just don't see the point in make up and the likes. I do get my hair coloured sometimes though and have my eyebrows waxed and lashes tinted but that's as far as I go. Subtle stuff, not anything to draw attention to myself.

My pdoc doesn't wear make up at work either, which is a massive relief in some ways. My last tdoc wore it caked on and it looked revolting and didn't hide her wrinkles anyway

We had to go to a wedding a few months back and my boys had never seen me wear a dress. It was hilarious to have them come up and touch it all night and tell me how gorgeous I looked. I haven't worn one again since though and every now and again my eldest will come up and say " mum, you wore a dress one day, didn't you?"

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Part of the jealousy issue is feeling inferior,

When I see my T with makeup, I immediately feel inferior to her and feel ashamed of myself for being so incompetent.

my whole list about never fitting in with people, from childhood on. Like the lipstick represents all the other things I didn't do that my peers were doing: didn't know the current music, didn't wear the right clothes, didn't date in HS, was overqualified for every job I had, didn't have a nice house, and on and on. I flunked fitting in!!!!

shame about feeling/being incompetent and inferior to your peers when growing up?

Originally Posted by Sannah

Erikson's developmental stage - Competence: Industry vs. Inferiority - Self confidence is developed at this stage, ages 6-12.

You have been talking about jealousy and you figured out what was underneath and driving that jealousy - you feel inferior. You go on further to explain that you have felt incompetent and like you never fit in. This is what I was impressed with, that you figured out what was really bothering you. It was coming out as jealousy, but you figured out what was underneath it. This is important because this is what you need to work on.

Exploring with your therapist your feelings about your incompetence and feelings of inferiority will really be helpful.

I brought up the developmental stages because I have seen you move through them here this last month. I'm really impressed that you have moved through 2 stages, the infant and then the 3 - 6 yr old Freudian stage and now you are at the 6 - 12 yr. stage. (Isn't it great how quickly you can move through them as an adult!).

Good work Rainbow!!

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I feel no one who looks like that would like me. They move in different circles, which is okay. My friends are similar to me in the way they look and dress. I understand your belief that those people are superficial but it's probably as you say, distorted. Do you know anyone in that category who does NOT fit your stereotype?

I think I also feel that people who look like that would not like me. But I don't care, really. I think they might disdain me and my "like me for my insides instead of outsides" attitude. I don't have friends who wear a lot of make-up so it's hard to find someone who beats the distorted stereotype I have (it's a soft bias rather than a hard stereotype, though). I move in different circles, as you wrote. But sometimes I go out shopping and there are salesclerks who have a lot of make-up on and they can be quite nice. But of course they're trying to sell me something! I'm sure there are very fine people who wear lots of make-up--I just don't know them personally, LOL. I do have a work acquaintance who wears make-up, but it is quite subtle--a bit of mascara, eyeliner, and a neutral eye shadow. She looks great and she's a wonderful person--smart, witty, fun.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I'm way too embarrassed to ask at the cosmetic counter... I emailed my T that I want her to help me, or at least tell me how I look with lipstick. I've never worn it to a session. I'm really scared to!!!

I bet you can also find some great how-to videos on youtube if you don't want to go to the cosmetics counter. Do you know what you are scared of about going to therapy with lipstick on? Do your think your T might laugh or make fun of you? Criticize you? Think you are pathetic? Think you are incompetent? Are you scared to try something new because you are comfy in your pattern of wearing no make-up? It can be hard to break out of our habits and try something different. Maybe your T would be proud of you for trying something new? You could just try it once and see how it goes. I think you are so wise to identify this fear in yourself and work on it.

Originally Posted by Sannah

Erikson's developmental stage - Competence: Industry vs. Inferiority - Self confidence is developed at this stage, ages 6-12... I brought up the developmental stages because I have seen you move through them here this last month. I'm really impressed that you have moved through 2 stages, the infant and then the 3 - 6 yr old Freudian stage and now you are at the 6 - 12 yr. stage. (Isn't it great how quickly you can move through them as an adult!).

I like looking at things through an Eriksonian lens too. My experience has been that if someone appears to be in one stage with something (like the incompetency stage related to applying make-up), they can still be in other stages for other things. Like a person could be in the child stage of industry vs. inferiority but also be in the adult stage of Generativity vs. Despair and still working on things in the toddler stage too, or all 3 at once. I am glad to be reminded of the stages...

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by sunrise

I know this is not fair, but I think of people who wear a lot of make-up as being superficial--so concerned with their outward appearance that they have to use 8 different products on their face before they step out of the house. I prefer genuine people who aren't so concerned with appearances. If I had a therapist who wore a lot of make up, I might not like that because they would seem superficial to me. I know there are so many generalizations and biases in what I just wrote... I just have this association from school days--the girls who wore make-up were all giggly and silly and talked about boys and make-up and dieting all the time...If someone spends so much money and time on clothes, they must be superficial--that is how my logic goes (distorted, I know).

I went once to get help with the really dark circles under my eyes and it was a painful experience.

You've been very clear about saying this logic is "distorted" and "unfair" and I appreciate that. So I don't want to come across as though I am misunderstanding what you wrote or taking issue with how you wrote it.

I do, however, want to provide the perspective of someone on the other side. (Not that there are "sides"; I just mean I want to give the perspective of someone who does wear make-up). I want to do this because it still kind of hurts to hear that people out there actually buy into these kind of stereotypes. It hurts to hear that people still have the perception that a woman is "superficial" if she chooses to wear make-up or if she has an interest in fashion.

In my experience, there are many reasons why women make an effort look presentable which have nothing to do with being superficial. For instance, I'm a professor and I believe that I appear more professional at work when I wear make-up and wear coordinated clothes. I'm also young and I've noticed that I get more respect from both colleagues and students when I'm more dressed up. (Of course, by dressed up I mean "professional"- I'm not talking about anything with cleavage or anything short!) I also feel better when I take the time to put energy into my self-presentation. I am taking time for myself and I am taking care of myself. I view going to the gym, eating healthy, and those things in the same manner; they are all things I do to take care of myself and treat my body well (they're like therapy for the body!). However, the way I view my self worth has nothing to do with my appearance; I do not think that wearing make-up or having nice clothes makes me "better" in any way, nor do I believe that my valuable qualities can be "seen" with the eye. The qualities I value in myself and in others are intelligence, kindness, compassion, wit, sincerity, and honesty. I'm incredibly genuine; putting on lipstick doesn't change that. It also makes no difference to me whether my friends wear make-up; about half of them do and half of them do not. My T does not. I would never suggest that anyone else SHOULD wear make-up; I think it's a personal preference. While I've never had anyone accuse me of being superficial for the way I dress or the way I do my make-up, I have do frequently have strangers, new acquaintances, and new colleagues make the assumption that I must be a "dumb blonde" simply because of the way I look. Exactly the "giggly, silly, talks about boys" stereotype mentioned above. I'm blonde, I'm somewhat voluptuous, I wear make-up, and I have a warm, happy personality- I also have a PhD, I'm a mentor for girls who don't have moms, and do a lot of volunteer work. Of course, people don't always take the time to get to know those things before they rush to judgment. For instance, I've been accused several times of trying to "steal" other women's boyfriends. Of course, I'm also a lesbian and NOT interested. In the most recent incident, I happen to be talking to a male friend of mine (who has a girlfriend) who is in the same mentor program I am. We were discussing a cookie-making party for the children! I just think it's really unfortunate that women often feel so "pitted against one another" because of things like make-up, clothes, appearance, and so forth. I guess it's hard for me to understand because I've never really felt that way. I have insecurities, but I don't really feel them "in comparison with" someone else. I don't really have the experience of feeling jealous or "less than" in relationship my T, either. There are things she has than I don't, and there are things I have that she doesn't. With regards to this conversation, if anything, I could give HER a make-up lesson! She wouldn't want one, though. She doesn't like it and doesn't need it. She wouldn't look like T if she suddenly came out wearing my kind of make-up, hair, and clothes. I like her better the way she is-- and I like myself better the way I am. We like each other for what's on the inside-- even if we do have the occasional conversation about shoes

P.S. Sunrise- I don't know what that make-up lady did to you, but putting on make-up doesn't hurt! You just blot it on gently! No pain involved!

[sunrise]

Great post, Scorpiosis! Thanks for presenting "the other side." What you wrote about the reasons for wearing make-up make so much sense and serve as a needed counterpoint to my post.

Just to clarify, I don't feel pitted against women who wear make-up and I also don't feel jealous of my T, a man, nor did I feel jealous of my first T, a woman. (I am not sure I have ever felt the emotion of jealousy towards anyone.) As you pointed out, there are quite a few reasons one might wear make-up that have nothing to do with being superficial. Interestingly, the way you worded it was that there were many reasons why a woman might "make an effort to look presentable", referring to wearing make-up and coordinated clothes. I actually don't associate wearing make-up with being presentable! I wonder if all these years that I didn't wear make-up there were people who looked at me and didn't think I was presentable? Yuck. If a woman feels that in order to look "presentable", she must wear make-up, then I can see that omitting it might cause her difficulty (undermine her self confidence). In fact, as I've aged, my skin tone has gotten worse and I do wear foundation sometimes to help with that. So there are times I do wear make-up to cover up unsightly things about myself (but I tend not to wear it for ornamental reasons). I know I'm kind of being a hypocrite here since I sometimes wear foundation... I also don't feel like women with make-up will steal my boyfriend. I have always felt that if a man was impressed by that so much that he would get lured away, then he wasn't the man for me! Interestingly, in my professional field, women seem to get less respect if they wear make-up and dress up, so that probably added to development of my bias. I guess it's just part of that career culture, just as wearing make-up in other fields (business comes to mind) may be part of their career cultures.

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

Sunrise- I don't know what that make-up lady did to you, but putting on make-up doesn't hurt! You just blot it on gently! No pain involved!

I think it's called plumping and blending. I believe the idea is to hit the skin under your eyes so that it plumps up, and tiny lines are minimized due to the swelling that results. Here is a video that shows this technique. Makes me cringe to watch it. Oww! I feel I must be unusual because otherwise I don't get how women could do this daily to themselves:
http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-...nder-your-eyes

Originally Posted by sunrise

I think it's called plumping and blending. I believe the idea is to hit the skin under your eyes so that it plumps up, and tiny lines are minimized due to the swelling that results.

Oh dear, this really disturbed me. I work with battered women who often have permanent discoloration above and below their eyes, typically greenish-blackish tinged, from repeated assaults to their eyes. Some women look like they have permanent or tatooed black eyes. Docs explain that these assaults to the eyes damage the blood vessels underneath, so the skin isn't nourished properly, hence the color change.

The long term effect of this "technique" could be potentially damaging, I would think.

I had thought you meant that it was an emotionally "painful" experience, not literally painful. Thanks for sharing your experiences, Anne