[stopdog]

I don't plan on specifics, but put the trigger icon on just in case.

I am wondering how much detail is necessary to give the therapist to have therapy work? The one I see keeps wanting more and more detail.
I am torn between wondering if they are just voyeurs or if I am exaggerating or something when the one I see keeps asking more and more about what I say. I mean, once the general bits of csa or corporal incidents with parents or other adult family members are out there, what more is there to say? Do you give a lot of detail? Do you find it helpful? I am not sure I am remembering it correctly in the first place. Being super specific is sometimes just not possible either because I cannot remember (maybe nothing happened if I can't remember it) or because I could be wrong. I can't remember what I wore yesterday or ate last week - how am I supposed to be accurate about things that occurred over 40 years ago? Why do they want the detail? (yes I have asked the therapist and received a non- answer) - Did giving detail help you in some way?

[karebear1]

This is an excellent question stopdog. I'll be watching to see what others think.

for us being as detailed as possible is very helpful because there are so many different parts with different memories. it can be very draining and taxing and almost always exhausting. but thats just what works best in our case. sometimes you might be surprised that some detail you think is so insignificant could turn out to be a key component to uncovering a certain trigger or memory. sorry if this isnt what you were looking for♥

[critterlady]

For me, it's been very helpful to work through details. I haven't been able to get through much yet, but every bit I share helps me to let go of it and helps my T understand that much better.

[likelife]

For me, the details of the event have been less important than the details of my response. There are a lot of things I can't remember either.

[WikidPissah]

I don't know, for me the details are meaningless. There were numerous acts, am I supposed to remember each one and the details that went with it? "what color was the bedspread" ????WTF???? Who cares...can we please get past this now?

[stopdog]

Sometimes the details seem contradictory and sometimes simply too absurd to be accurate.

Dont think details are-that-important. How I react to people/places/things is more important/useful

[2or3things]

********Trigger for completely made-up scenario regarding parental neglect********



I don't know if this is an issue in your case, but my $.02 is that the details matter a heck of a lot, though not for the sake of description so much as for the sake of creating an emotional connection to what was happening for you, how it made you feel then, and how it makes you feel now. An example...

I've been in T a few times over the past 20 years. The first time we went over my CSA in painstaking detail. I believe the point was not so much that my T wanted to know every little thing as that she knew I needed to feel every little thing I could about it. First, the more details I gave, the clearer the picture became, and the more I remembered. More importantly, the more details I gave, the more I made an emotional connection to what happened, which is exactly what's needed to work through something like that and ultimately heal. It was really painful, but the outcome was great.

I'm currently in T for a bunch of other stuff, most of which has to do with childhood trauma of a different sort. This time around my defenses are super high. Three years into it, I've basically told T what seem like the important details, but it's definitely been in outline/summary form, not much more. (It's sort of like the difference between saying "My mom didn't pay a lot of attention to me, and I guess it sort of bothered me" and "When I was four my mom left me alone in the house for two days because she met some man. I was terrified the whole time that someone was going to kidnap me. And I didn't know how to cook for myself, so I ate dogfood. I felt ashamed that I did that, and afraid that she was going to be mad. These days I feel....") There's a pretty big difference, I think. The outline lets us minimize and disconnect. The more detailed version, not so much.

Anyway, this time around in T I keep saying "I really think I've told you everything," and T keeps saying "I think there's a lot more to say." And I know she's right. I know what's missing is the feelings behind the book report version that I'm offering now. And I know I won't get better until I get to that.

One other thing...

I sometimes find myself thinking/saying what amounts to "I'm not sure if I remember everything the right way" and "I don't want to be wrong and be unfair to my abusers." T keeps saying that it's the nature of these kinds of abuse that people often don't remember everything, but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. And even if it's not 100% accurate, it's what it feels like happened, and in this case that's just as important.

Anyway, I hope this helps. I really know, from experience, that the details matter. I also know it's so hard to give them. It takes courage, but you strike me as a tough cookie, so I believe you can do it!

Stopdog, there is so much I can't remember as well... and when I told of the abuse my T has asked me if I'm done "reporting" about the incident... (he isn't being mean when he says that)... he's trying to help me see the difference of telling the facts of the incident and telling it as if it happened to me and how I felt about it... So that is why my T thought I needed to keep talking about it... not necessarily all in one session but why we would need to revisit..

He explained it to me once when I had gone to a wedding... we talked about it and I "reported" about the wedding but I talked about how I felt watching them get married... how hearing wedding vows spoken had made me think back to my wedding day and how it felt to be so happy for the people and all of those feelings that went into being there... and he said that is what he thinks I need to talk about... how I felt and what I may have been thinking at the time...

But it is certainly okay to say I can't remember when you don't...

[Butterflies Are Free]

I think you should only tell your T what you are able to at any given time. As you work through these issues, you may find it will be easier to share more. I met my current T over 15 years when she was running a support group for survivors - at the first meeting , I actually said that I wasn't sure I belonged there. I am now able to share more details with my T but am grateful that she never pushed me.

[SpiritRunner]

****trigger for detail*****

Detail is important, I think, but I also think plenty of good work can get done without all the details being remembered or divulged. I don't remember lots of details anyway from most things, but a few experiences I do - so those I told in more detail. But even so what I seemed to remember best was not what was done so much outside of me as what I felt on the inside, the emotional imprint of the experience/memory, if that's clear. I don't remember my dad's expression or what all he may have said, but I do remember the anger. I don't precisely remember the feeling of the belt striking me, but I do remember my obstinate defiant determination to not make a single sound .... and I also remember the ache within me being greater than the pain of the welts, but that I had a certain pride too for withstanding the physical pain so well. Ah well...
We each remember differently ..... and maybe the exact details of the event aren't always so important as ensuring that you ARE dealing with the emotional imprint of the event ......
You don't have to put pressure on yourself to give or to remember details, stopdog, you can go at your pace and do what you feel ready, able, willing to do ..... not that I'm saying go easy or not push at all, but pacing yourself....

[stopdog]

[QUOTE=Readytostop;2309836... how I felt and what I may have been thinking at the time...
...[/QUOTE]

I have absolutely no idea. Sometimes I probably felt bad but that is just a guess based on how I would feel now. "if someone hits you, it hurts and you feel bad" rather than being able to say I remember feeling X. I don't remember feeling anything. I don't feel anything now when talking about it. And then there is always concern that there were bits one did not object to or protest.

I know for myself that since I have huge gaps of memory loss (like I remember school time but not time in my home) that I probably dissociated as a way of dealing with it... and that may account for my ability to talk like a robot or even to smile when talking about something horrible...

Yes I had an "I imagine" session with my t. in which we talked about how adult me thought little me must have felt at the time... there were two points to my T wanting me to do that... one was so I could realize how things I don't think are a big deal really would be to a child or to be more specific would I want a child I know today to have to go through that... and the second point was so he could point out that children don't understand things the way an adult does and that children don't know enough to know what is really happening. As adults with all this knowledge and understanding it is hard to go back to understanding as a child did...

So your concern that there were bits one liked... That is really something that is so helpful to talk to T about because she would really help you understand that children don't have the understanding to know what was happening...sometimes people thought it was okay because at least they weren't being beat...sometimes kids are just at least having someone pay attention to them (even if its not good)... oh this is something if you haven't that you should really discuss...

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by Readytostop

to talk like a robot or even to smile when talking about something horrible...

I have been told I do this too. Sometimes it all seems so absurd or silly (or how silly I am being about it) laughing is the only response I can come up with.

I know I do the same thing too.... My t said I "dissociate" from my feelings about the incidents... sometimes my T. has told me the laugh is distracting and that he thinks it was a "nervous" laugh used subconsciouly to keep the "real" emotions down....

For me...knowing any of these things does not make it "go away"

I added a trigger for yucky details of my own stuff. I'd make it a double trigger if I could -- involves cruelty to animals as well as children.

Originally Posted by stopdog

Sometimes the details seem contradictory and sometimes simply too absurd to be accurate.

I had this experience as well, stopdog, about one incident in particular. I kept dreaming about, and sometimes "remembering" my mom killing a little kitten that followed me home. Killing it in front of me, and not all at once. I thought there was NO way EVEN my mother was that horrible. And the kitten kept changing color in my dreams and memories. So I thought that was something that I just made up. As it turns out, no. She actually did that. My sisters were laughing about it one day when my niece's cat was annoying my sister. "Remember that time mom shot the kitten that followed MKAC home, and told MKAC it was all her fault?" "Remember how she just wounded it at first?" hahahahaha.

I wouldn't share this at all, stopdog, except to emphasis that while our brains will mess with the details, many times the underlying incident really was there. And it's so awful and messed up that our little brains cannot deal with it, and we distort the details.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I have absolutely no idea. Sometimes I probably felt bad but that is just a guess based on how I would feel now. "if someone hits you, it hurts and you feel bad" rather than being able to say I remember feeling X. I don't remember feeling anything. I don't feel anything now when talking about it. And then there is always concern that there were bits one did not object to or protest.

This one is hard for me as well. Both parts. Lack of feeling because I had learned how to live half alive (as the song goes), and also that not only did I not object out loud, I didn't even object internally to parts of it. I still have deep seated shame about that.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by SpiritRunner

****trigger for detail*****

I don't precisely remember the feeling of the belt striking me, but I do remember my obstinate defiant determination to not make a single sound .... and I also remember the ache within me being greater than the pain of the welts, but that I had a certain pride too for withstanding the physical pain so well. Ah well...
We each remember differently ..... and maybe the exact details of the event aren't always so important as ensuring that you ARE dealing with the emotional imprint of the event ......

I don't really remember the details of this sort of thing either, but I do remember that I really wanted to be tough and take it without being a baby about it.
I don't recall the emotional part of it.
Thanks for being so articulate about it.

[unaluna]

chien andalou, remind me again of your T's degree?

I was thinking about impervious this morning (again!), and how it looks from MY T's side. While i'm sitting there NOT changing, i'm basically telling him he's a bad mother, like a baby sitting on the pot and refusing to "go". My T has often said he wants to be a good mother and I didn't get it until this a.m. So why DO T's go into this business? Their goal each morning is not to "be impervious"; it's to be a partner in our change.

But. My first long term T. Though she brought me a long way, I often complain to current T that I told LTT the exact same stories - why didn't she HEAR what I was saying? I knew what I meant - I knew they were significant. But she was always cutting me off and saying, "That's what you're THINKING, tell me what you're FEEEEELING." Like my storytelling wasn't good enough for her. Excuse me???!!! Hostile!

So, SAWE asked for books to read, I seconded a recommendation of Butterfly's; if you haven't read it yet, you might wanna, it's avail for a penny on amazon, The Courage To Heal. It might help you with your question here of how much detail / how to get in touch with feelings, because this book knows about feelings I was barely aware of, it is awesome.
Then too I have been thinking about how much I let in the opinions of significant others, specif him!; T has been trying to tell me, not enough. Of course I don't out of habit - the FOO was foreign AND nuts. Sometimes I think the only reason they didn't honor kill me was because they didn't want to go to jail - and they were probably figuring my husband would eventually do it for them anyway. Schmucks, all of 'em!

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

I had this experience as well, stopdog, about one incident in particular.
I wouldn't share this at all, stopdog, except to emphasis that while our brains will mess with the details, many times the underlying incident really was there. And it's so awful and messed up that our little brains cannot deal with it, and we distort the details.

This one is hard for me as well. Both parts. Lack of feeling because I had learned how to live half alive (as the song goes), and also that not only did I not object out loud, I didn't even object internally to parts of it. I still have deep seated shame about that.

MKC - i am so sorry your mother did that to you and the kitten. I went and checked on my pets after reading it. And thanks for being willing to recount it.
There were things that I liked and knew were wrong. So what is there to complain about now?
And I don't know what more there is to say other than what I have already said.the more I talk, the more detached it all seems.

[stopdog]

[QUOTE=hankster;2309920]chien andalou, remind me again of your T's degree?

So, SAWE asked for books to read, I seconded a recommendation of Butterfly's; if you haven't read it yet, you might wanna, it's avail for a penny on amazon, The Courage To Heal. It might help you with your question here of how much detail / how to get in touch with feelings, because this book knows about feelings I was barely aware of, it is awesome.
/QUOTE]

Some version of MSW.
I have read the book. I know many people really find it useful, but it was not that interesting to me. I do appreciate the thought.

[stopdog]

Thank you all for sharing some of your details with me.

A lot of the time, if I think about it, I simply think maybe I deserved it, I lived through it, I am not that bad off, and I should just get on with my life and stop this incessant whining, and should stop being so freaking weak about the whole thing. None of the detail I remember is all that bad.

[mcl6136]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Thank you all for sharing some of your details with me.

A lot of the time, if I think about it, I simply think maybe I deserved it, I lived through it, I am not that bad off, and I should just get on with my life and stop this incessant whining, and should stop being so freaking weak about the whole thing. None of the detail I remember is all that bad.

I lived through it is my current excuse. I lived through THAT, so THIS must not be so bad.

I actually catch myself thinking of this...often.

My best therapist gave me homework. In seven days' time, I was assigned to make a list of WHAT I WAS TOLERATING

I thought, gee......I am living through some things, so they must not be so bad.

Proof positive that therapy is worth doing, if only to get one thinking about the onerous stuff that's being tolerated, ...that shouldn't be.

Part of my spring cleaning is to stop "living through" things and start thriving, enjoying, appreciating...you get the point.

The point is: some of us who have "lived through" such awful things...sometimes have a tendency to tolerate abuse...and to minimize that abuse when talking about our lives...even in therapeutic settings. I do thank my old therapists who urged me to get past the "robot" stage or the "joking" stage when talking about the violence in my family of origin. Now, because of therapy, I'm MUCH less likely to accept abuse in other settings, be they work or relationship areas.

But it was hard going for a long long time.

[stopdog]

But that is just it - I am not having any abuse now (I am not fully certain what happened earlier was abuse - but even if it was - there is none now). My life is fine now. I am not tolerating anything that is not just life (tax prep, license renewal, house painting etc). I know I have choices and make the best ones at the time with the information I have. I don't get into things I don't choose to be in, I can tell others no, I can go be with friends, I can go be alone - all of that is fine. There is no reason for me feeling wrong (shame?) all the time. And details are not seeming to make it any better.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I am wondering how much detail is necessary to give the therapist to have therapy work?

It's changes in yourself that matter and make therapy work and not admitting "those" details out loud, keeping them inside with, perhaps, incorrect assumptions/imaginings about them that are at the crux of what makes you unhappy/have a problem could be what will make or break therapy for you.

You can't know what detail it might be before you bring it out into the light of day with someone else looking at it who says, "Oh, no, sweetie! That's not how that works" and correcting your seven year old self's misunderstanding of what was going on? The whole of how you think/feel/are "put together" is a good idea because you never know how your mother spanking you with her left hand when she is right-handed might be related to your split feelings about your mother being good/bad until it's paired with her grandfather being Muslim so the left hand is "bad" and it is your mother who is split and you just learned it from what she was taught (meaning you can unlearn/change how you think/feel).

Our younger lives, especially, are very complicated, when we're just starting to get oriented for ourselves and speak, etc. as we've already learned so much (don't put paper clips in electrical sockets) and a lot of what we have learned is cultural or idiosyncratic to our parents and not necessarily what is helpful or useful to ourselves, now. But often it takes another person looking at the same information to let us know that the "default" we are use to is what might be getting in our way now.