Relationship with my daughter

True, but maybe the daughter doesn't want to be asked. Maybe the asking will make things worse by making the poor woman feel guilty--as I would feel if someone asked why I didn't want to hug them.

Hugs are a marker of success, in my opinion. When everything else in the relationship has healed, then MAYBE hugs will be forthcoming. But to start off the dialogue with a conversation about hugs...I dunno. I just don't think that's the right place to start when a relationship is still a work-in-progress.

Isn´t it yet again a "boundary issue." I feel like given you a hug, you cleraly don´t want that and I don´t respect that without getting upset. Being able to set ones own agenda aside and validate the other persons feelings/ reaction is the key.
If this have been the dynamic of this relationship with Rain and her daugther when she was a child, it doesn´t really matter if it´s about hugging or not.IMO
Refering to "boundary issues" because it seems to be interacted the same way in the T relationship (from former threads) Sorry.
Thats why I asked why the T relationship and your familiy issues/relationship are like comparing " apple and oranges", Rainbow.

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Perhaps Rainbow is interpreting it incorrectly, and her daughter does want to be hugged but doesn't respond the way Rainbow would expect if she wanted to be hugged, and everything is actually fine and Rainbow should keep hugging.

Perhaps Rainbow is spot on, and should give her daughter space.

You really think it's better for her to just pick one of these and go with it, under the assumption that her daughter doesn't want to be asked about it?

Assuming that you know what other people do or do not want to be asked is a great way to perpetuate dysfunction in relationships. Rainbow's daughter is an adult. If Rainbow asks a question she doesn't want to answer, she doesn't have to answer.

You're excluding a huge middle.

I don't think the hug is the thing rainbow should be fixated on. The problem isn't in the daughter not wanting to hug rainbow. It's just a symptom. So rainbow asking the daughter, "Why don't you want to hug me?" and the daughter saying X, Y, or Z isn't going to fix things.

Seriously, if I've told my mother that it doesn't feel like she's really there for me and whatever else the daughter told rainbow, and my mother came back with, "Why don't you want to hug me?", I would feel very angry. First of all, I already told her my primary issue--I don't feel like she's there for me. What more does she want me to say? Secondly, why wouldn't I feel like I'm being set up for either a guilt trip or a heated argument? Especially if we've never had conversations like this before when they haven't been this way? It's a conversation where high emotions seem to be inevitable. Some people--such as myself--can't handle arguments like this without seriously flipping out.

Maybe rainbow's daughter is the type of person who can handle that. Rainbow would know best. I just don't think that I would go that route, nor would I want my mother to go that route with me. If the daughter has already thrown up walls, I don't think pointedly asking her about it is the way to go. But as they say on the interwebs, your mileage may vary.

If rainbow really wants to get things out in the open, I think she'd be better off asking her daughter how she feels about their relationship in general and asking her how she can improve things. Make it about how the daughter is feeling rather than how she is acting. That may give rainbow all she needs to know about where the hesitancy in affection is coming from without even having to ask. The daughter should not be put in the place of having to spell out every single thing. Parents have a duty to provide affection to their children. Not the other way around.

This assumes rainbow's daughter is healthy--mentally and emotionally. A person with low self-esteem doesn't need yet another reason to feel guilty. A mother asking their low self-esteem-having daughter, "Why don't you want to hug me?", just screams, "What's wrong with you that you don't want to hug your own mother!!" Maybe the daughter is assertive enough to say, "I'd rather not say" if that's what she's feeling. Is rainbow alright with this as a response? Does the daughter know she can say this to her mother? I don't know. That's why I wouldn't recommend it. I would take a more indirect approach. But maybe that's just how I roll.

I think the bolded portion is that part that we all agree on. I would have thought that rainbow's previous discussion with her daughter would have given everyone all of the information that was needed about the daughter's hesitancy in affection, but that may just have been me reading into it.

The part that you two are disagreeing on is really only about how to address the problem. What works for one person might not work for another. I am pretty comfortable with my daughter saying, "hey Baby, doesn't seem like you want a hug right now. You want to talk about what is bothering you?" And she is okay saying yes, and telling me what is going on, or saying no, she wants to wait and talk about it later. That works for us. If MY mother asked me about me not wanting a hug, she didn't ask that way; she would be more like what you indicated, autoelica: "What is WRONG with you??? I'm YOUR MOTHER! You HAVE to hug me." So, I can see both sides in this. Hopefully, rainbow can find a way to address this that works for her AND her daughter.

Thanks for understanding, My kids. My mother would totally ask the question that way, with lots of tears and wailing. It wouldn't be the kind of calm, rational conversation like we're having now. It would be emotionally intense. And despite my assertiveness training, I would fall to pieces.

I understand that some people--maybe lots of people--can handle that kind of question. I'm in awe of that kind of strength.

I don't recall suggesting that this is how Rainbow handle it. I don't recall saying that Rainbow's daughter was required to return her mother's affection. And I definitely don't recall saying that asking about hugs would solve all of Rainbow's problems.

Finding out why her daughter doesn't like being hugged need not come in the form of terrorizing her daughter. [ETA: And I don't think it was right of your mom to approach it by terrorizing you. For her, it wasn't about actually understanding you.]

Honestly, MKAC's right in that it doesn't take a clinical psychologist to make a few hypotheses about why Rainbow's daughter seems to not like being hugged. But Rainbow needs to make that connection herself, too, not just say that "she doesn't like being touched", and fail to connect it to her own behavior. This isn't about how her daughter returns her affection. This is about Rainbow understanding why she doesn't want to.

I haven't been able to be online until now, and I have a miserable cold. I don't have the energy to respond to all of the posts. I also think it's too personal for me to post more on the forum, and it's best discussed with my T instead. The advice is good but it's all so overwhelming to me. I feel like I'm a failure when I read the posts. I AM a failure. I just want to go home!!! I think we're going Thursday.

I don't think that follows.

I had meaningful relationships in real life, but I still had a powerful parental fantasy about T.

I often think you guys who are so honest with your comments are more helpful than my T! This morning I took a deep breath and told my d that I was proud of her, that I know it's very hard with the kids, working, and their role in their community. Then I said I love you. She smiled and said "thank you. It's very nice to hear that." Then she had to go to work. She said "I love you too." We didn't hug because I have this awful cold and she's very fussy about germs.

I've criticized her too much, like about how the girls' hair is rarely combed (she doesn't care and neither do they, and it's not short either). My commenting on that, and trying to encourage them to brush/comb their hair never does any good; it's not a priority in their family. I can be proud of her in spite of how she and her H run their household. I couldn't do what she does!

I felt good telling her, and I know she did too.

Sally, this post bothers me. My other daughter loves to hug and be hugged. I will say that I have a better relationship with that d because she doesn't have the issues this one has. It's true. My d. didn't like my H hugging her either. Do you think it's because I've criticized her a lot? Is that what you think? She is particular about germs, washes her hands a lot, and probably has OCD. That's part of it. But the other part is, you think, because she doesn't see that I love her because she always comments on how negative I am. This trip I tried to change that, but my H and I both felt we were unwanted and a burden to our d. and sil. We were there for a specific holiday that lasted over a week. Maybe next year we can work it out so we only go for half of it.

My d didn't want to take the time to take a picture of me with the one grandchild who was home from school before we left. She has a million things to do. She did take a few minutes, but I don't know. She said she's always tired, and so is my sil. The whole situation bothers me because I am helpless to do anything about it!

Don't put words in my mouth, Rainbow. I never said I thought it was because you criticized her a lot.

If you're so certain that her not wanting to be hugged is because she is a germaphobe and OCD, then why do you hug her?? If she genuinely does not like being touched, then you are disrespecting her boundaries.

All I am saying is that if you don't know why, then you should probably figure it out. If you believe there's a possibility that it has something to do with the interaction between your daughter and her parents, then it's going to take more than a week at her place to figure that out. But if you are so certain that it has nothing to do with you, you are doing her wrong by invading her space. You can't have it both ways, just hug her and complain when she doesn't return your hugs warmly, then get upset when it's suggested that it might have something to do with your relationship and insist that she doesn't like being hugged because she's OCD, which just indicates that you are hugging her despite seemingly knowing she doesn't want it or like it.

That your other daughter likes being hugged isn't relevant. My brothers are much more open to physical affection than I am. We have the same parents, and frankly, traditional gender stereotypes would predict it as the other way around. We have different relationships with our parents.

I didn't mean to put words into your mouth. It seemed like you knew the answer, saying it doesn't take a clinical Psy. to figure it out. I don't know the answer! I hug her when we arrive on our trip, and when we leave. She's never said "don't hug me" or "don't touch me". I'm guessing. It just seems like you and others have it figured out, and I don't, which frustrates me and makes me feel bad.

MKAC, you said that about not needing to be a T to figure it out. Please tell me what you think.

I just want to say agian, your visit was too long. I love and enjoy our oldest and her children. My sil is a wonderful man. They usually visit for 4-5 days and by the end I am sorry they are leaving, yet relieved to no longer have company. I adore them, hug them, think the world of them. They are my favorite visitors and I wish they would come more frequently. But 4-5 days is more than enough. I could not handle anyone staying in my house any longer, no matter how much I love them. Add possible ocd, high stress jobs and young children into that...yikes. I think you simply overstayed your welcome.

I think you would be hard-pressed to find anyone that could tolerate company for that length of time.

rainbow, I'm not sure that you really want to hear what I have to say. I am still shaking a bit with anger at your response to Sally. So, feel free to stop reading now.

I was referring to the ways in which you are similar to MY mother in saying that. When a mother is self centered, has a disrespect for others' boundaries, puts her own needs ahead of others, and resents giving her child something just because she (the mother) does not get enough of it herself, the child senses all of that. All of THAT is part of what made me pull back and not want to give or receive hugs. THAT is what I suspect is part of your daughter's issue.

Neither of my sisters have the same issues with hugs that I do. For whatever reason, they respond differently to my mother's lack of boundaries, intrusiveness and self centeredness than I do. My older sister has seemingly inherited my mother's issues with lack of physical boundaries and my younger sister is totally self centered and narcissistic as well (to be fair, she may be borderline and not narcissistic, I don't really know).

And I am a bit OCD, although I don't have issues with fear of germs. My OCD issues are about trying to find some control for myself after being raised in a world where I had no control because everything revolved around my mother and her needs. Because, as I've said, no one could possibly need as much as her, or suffer as much as her, or whatever. My OCD has very little to do with a desire to have physical affection on MY terms FINALLY and not have my mother's needs take absolute precedence over mine all of the time.

I have a lot more to say, but will stop there.

Rainbow if we all could get this much attention and have people analyse and give us " the answer " as you do in here, none of us would get anywhere.
We pushed you to DBT, convince you emailing your T is hurting you, get blunt then clap our hands when you make a sudden, but often short change.
Rainbow come here for support and not therapy and attention.
YOU have to work out your own stuff sometimes.
We are all reinforcing this pattern of yours. You have to ASLO work on your issues in T and not just focuse on talking about your therapist in sessions with her. Most people in here don´t expect to have the other members doing the work for them.
Sorry I love this forum and would not want anyone not getting the support they needed. But it seems to me that you have to put some effort in it too. Not just convince everyone of us after we post that now you have done this and that to make a change. You are fooling yourself and us. Sorry this is a blunt post it´s just hard to watch when the pattern in here is regonized also.

I agree but, without giving up my privacy here, the facts are that we HAD to stay at least a week because it was a religious holiday and we can't drive during those days. We could have come home in the middle. My H is the one who likes to stay "forever" when we go. He wanted to stay 3 weeks because he doesn't like to drive so once we're there, we're there. I did do more driving on the way home, on expressways which terrify me. I said NO, 2 weeks is all.

So, overstaying our welcome may be true, but you guys have to understand that the time period is not set by me or mly children, and we all understand that. Yes, we could have stayed a week and made other arrangements for the rest of the time. Oh, I sure hope no one recognizes me online.

MKAC, I honestly was upset because I want to know what's wrong with me. I wasn't angry with Sally. I was trying to understand her post.

I am a wreck because I stood on my feet helping my d. cook for 7 hours one day, and almost as long on the other day we needed to. I didn't complain about it. I kept asking "what else can I do?" I played with the kids, read stories, did laundry. I have no needs anymore regarding my family. My H agrees he felt unwanted too. I love them. I did not ask for a lot. I wrote all my triggers down in my diary for DBT group. I did the best I could.

Maybe THIS VISIT you did the best you could, rainbow, and that IS great. It really is. One visit will not heal an entire past, not if you acted with your family in the past the way you indicate that you have, or the way that you act on this board.

I understand that you have mental health difficulties. I do. I get that a lot of things are caused by being borderline. It does not change the fact that growing up with a borderline or narcissistic mother is deeply, deeply wounding. It may take more than one visit to repair those wounds.

And I get what you are talking about in terms of the cooking and the driving. Those things and times of the year are stressful anyway, but that would have also been a great opportunity to clear the air and own your own stuff and responsibility, and ask for forgiveness. I cannot tell you how healing it was for me to have open discussions with my dad and for him to say he was sorry.

No, no one has figured it out, and none of here can. All we can do is respond from our own experience. You're the only one who knows everything you know about your daughter, and she's the only one who can tell you, if she chooses to, why she seems not to like hugs.

For me, part of it was exactly what you just said -- my parents "just guessing". I didn't like that they just made assumptions about me, then acted on them. I felt like I wasn't the person they were hugging, and that they wouldn't want to hug the real me. I felt like they didn't care who the real me was or what she wanted.

My mom was very critical, and I will say that I am more inclined to hug her when she throws some praise in with the criticism, but that wasn't really the answer.

Also, as I said before, she seemed to hold back at times, which made me feel confused about where she was coming from. She actively wanted to ensure that I didn't rely on her praise too much. She meant well, but it wasn't that great for me.

I mentioned before as well that this reminds me of how you have expressed feeling in T at times, wanting your T to tell you she loves you. I am glad you told your daughter that you loved her, but I would imagine she senses the absence of it just as you sense the absence of it in therapy. You KNOW your T loves you, but you need to hear it. So does your daughter. It's not a "phone" thing.

It's a very complex issue and for me was not just wanting to be touched versus not wanting to be touched. It was connected to a lot of other things that needed to be untangled.

One thing I will say about my parents, though, is that although it frustrates me that they "just guessed" that I didn't want to be hugged and "just guessed" about a lot of things... they acted on that with compassion and respect for my (perceived) boundaries. They didn't initiate hugs as often because they sensed they made me uncomfortable and assumed I "just didn't like it". I don't think that was the best thing to do, but it was definitely well-intended, and was much better than believing I didn't want it and doing it anyway.

Thank you, lonely. I want to think about what you wrote and not answer off the top of my head. I'm not sure I understand about fooling everyone and myself. I'm doing the best I can. I'm going to think about it more, like I said.

I'm thinking and not quite understanding. Others ask for help but I can't. If I'm getting helped by the forum, I don't see what's wrong with that. Others have told me they have learned a lot from my honesty in my threads. I don't expect others to do the work, but when someone posted that they knew what my problem is without saying it, I got frustrated, so I asked.

If my issue IS attachment to the T, how can I work on it without talking about it? My sessions are 90 minutes. I don't talk about my relationship with her for all that time. How can I when we do this SE stuff now? Or EMDR? We also may spend 15 minutes breathing, which is part of my therapy. Hopefully, I spend 90 minutes breathing but you know what I mean! You only know a small part of what goes on in my session. I don't share everything though I know it seems like I do.

I am not consciously trying to fool ANYONE. I wish you would believe me.