[Abby]

I need to talk to someone. I had the worst therapy session. It hasn't been good for quite a few months because I felt she was saying all the wrong things at the wrong time and it felt like she didn't really care that I was really struggling outside therapy (especially the aftermath of therapy).

I brought all this up several times but nothing changed. I would go to the session, we'd argue or I'd feel we were arguing, I'd leave feeling horrific and then wash, rinse, repeat the next session. Finally she told me that she was feeling pressured by me to be everything and that she did feel the need to seperate herself from me. I'm glad she admitted that something was going on but it still hurts that I made her feel this way.

I told her that I needed a break because I couldn't keep doing things over and over with the way things were - sure we'd talk about what was going on but it wouldn't actually change anything. I wanted a break for that reason (because I was tired), but also because I felt bad for asking so much of her, and because I guess I was/am angry that she couldn't either be what I need her to be or she couldn't help me find a way of dealing with the intensity of that need. I don't know what else to do and in life this is what I do, I withdraw. I try and try but eventually it is too much. It hurts too much to say explicitly I need help but not receive it...or not feel I am receiving it. I am angry somewhere inside, I don't want to have to withdraw but I can only feel as though I'm banging my head against a wall so many times...thinking about it now, I can't keep trying because I can't keep feeling rejected. I want her to love me so much, and rationally I know she can't, but...I can't explain it very well.

She told me that I don't want to change, that I don't want to accept she is human and not perfect. I have told her a billion times that I wish she was perfect because then I'd feel safe and I feel so unsafe all the time...I don't know how to go about changing this...she is right I can't accept she is human because humans are fickle, they change, they say they love you then they hurt you and I get soo confused about whether I should feel the love or not because when will it be taken away/hurt me??! It is too scary. She said that I go into psychotic distortions where I retreat into being 'bad' so I don't have to accept any good in the other person (or me) even if it is only just a little good. It is true, I can't accept a little because that is scary....when will it leave?! When I do feel it, when it is gone that hurts a lot. And it isn't just 'not there', it is 'gone' (if that makes sense). I'm not okay with her being human, I don't know how to be, I don't know how anyone feels it is enough or safe.

I understand these are past distortions even when they feel like the absolute truth. But I don't know how to keep moving forward when this keeps happening. I want to trust, I really do, but I can't... She said I don't hear her properly because I can sometimes tell her I hear two versions of what she says...but then I don't know how to know which one is the truth? How do I keep safe if what I hear and feel is a distortion? I have tried hard for 4 years to keep going back to sort out all our issues, it isn't that I am not committed. It takes repetition...but how do I cope with the pain in the meantime...that's all my problem has been, I just don't want to be continually self-medicating to cope with therapy.

I feel lost. Everyone says that the worst times are when a person experiences the most change, but right now, tonight, I still have my distortions and I feel she is angry at me, disappointed and telling me that I am causing all my pain....which unconsciously I guess I am. I want to change, I don't want to feel scared all the time anymore, I want to appreciate what I'm offered even if it isn't everything I want. It is awful feeling so selfish inside, I hide it from most everyone else in my life.

I feel very bad and very lost but I'm not even sure I'm allowed to feel that because does that mean I'm being a victim? I hate people being angry at me, and I hate me being angry at them. I hate the volatile nature of humans, apparently just because someone is angry at me doesn't mean they don't still care about me...but that doesn't compute for me. I literally don't 'get it' on a really basic level.

This is so long, and exposing and terrifying. I feel I need to be more than who I am. My therapist ended saying that maybe we just need to accept that I am where I am and if I can't then I can't. I can accept that, I know I can't be 3 steps ahead of where I am, but all I wanted was some relief from the pain I'm in when I am where I am. I feel that I don't deserve that, but I'm pretty sure that is a distortion too...

[Raging Quiet]

I can totally relate to you.

(((((Hugs))))))

It makes me want to leave T and just get on with my life. She is obviously not giving you what you need xxx

It does sound as if this T is failing to own her own stuff and placing quite a bit of blame on you.

[Lamplighter]

(((((( Abby )))))) I could relate to just about everything you wrote in your post - and I admire your openness and ability to articulate what's going on in you - you are describing things that I really struggle to even think to myself.

I agree with MKAC, it does sound like this T is loading her own stuff onto you. It doesn't matter if you don't/can't accept she's human, it's irrelevant whether she's feeling pressured to be what you want her to be - her job is to accept you where you're at (she more or less implies this anyway doesn't she where she says that maybe you both need to accept that this is where you're at?) Perhaps it's taken her this long to accept that herself, and maybe next session will be a lot better.

Sounds to me like you're taking too much responsibility for making the therapy work, you shouldn't have to be dealing with all the things you talked about in your post, by yourself, almost despite having a T.

I'm not sure what to suggest here, if there is anything to suggest even. It sounds like you're in the middle of having to make some weighty decisions so I'm just sending you some hugs and lots of support

Torn

Hi Abby,
I am sorry this this was such a hard session and has been so hard for a long time. I have to agree wiith the others (torn mind and MKAC) I think your t is avoiding responsibilty and placing it on you and unfairly so. From you have wriiten so well here it sounds as though you have done a lot of work on yourself and are now discovering that your t is not supporting this or giving you the tools to deal with the therapy hangover.
I would not let her place the blame on you and tell you you are not wanting to get better. This is just her opinion, it is not a fact or something you should take any notice of since it is clearly not true. Maybe the truth is that you can't change right now, that you are stuck and it IS her job to help you get unstuck and that is NOT asking too much from her.
Have you thought about trying another type of therapy such as CBT to make you more aware of your thoughts and to try and help you change them?

hi Abby,

I agree with a lot of what has been said here and am not sure I can offer much more than support. I do want to say just by reading what you wrote that you are definitely not lacking an interest in trying to change...and I don't think you are getting enough support from your therapist.

I don't know if this means she is not the right therapist for you, but if so, she should be able to recommend someone better able to be supportive and helpful when you need it.

As also mentioned, other kinds of therapy could be helpful, too. Just don't give up on yourself...I don't think this is a "you" issue. You are not getting your needs met and someone needs to step up to the plate and be the person you can depend on to always be there for you.

Please take care of yourself and don't give up.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by Abby

I can't accept she is human because humans are fickle, they change, they say they love you then they hurt you and I get soo confused about whether I should feel the love or not because when will it be taken away/hurt me??!

She said that I go into psychotic distortions where I retreat into being 'bad' so I don't have to accept any good in the other person (or me) even if it is only just a little good. It is true, I can't accept a little because that is scary....when will it leave?! When I do feel it, when it is gone that hurts a lot. And it isn't just 'not there', it is 'gone' (if that makes sense). I'm not okay with her being human, I don't know how to be, I don't know how anyone feels it is enough or safe.

She said I don't hear her properly because I can sometimes tell her I hear two versions of what she says...but then I don't know how to know which one is the truth? How do I keep safe if what I hear and feel is a distortion?

how do I cope with the pain in the meantime

I don't want to feel scared all the time anymore, I want to appreciate what I'm offered even if it isn't everything I want.

I hate people being angry at me, and I hate me being angry at them. I hate the volatile nature of humans, apparently just because someone is angry at me doesn't mean they don't still care about me...but that doesn't compute for me. I literally don't 'get it' on a really basic level.

all I wanted was some relief from the pain I'm in when I am where I am. I feel that I don't deserve that, but I'm pretty sure that is a distortion too...

[Ike McCaslin]

(((((Abby))))))

[Abby]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

It does sound as if this T is failing to own her own stuff and placing quite a bit of blame on you.

Maybe. It is hard to tell. I wish she wasn't so defensive when I am angry at her because deep down I know I'm trying to say something important but I just don't know what it is or how to say it. I really wish she could help me figure out what I need to say that is so important I feel I need to force it upon her to feel 'heard'. It is exhausting for me to continually behave in this way. I have told her that when I'm angry it usually means I'm scared; so it upsets me when she still reacts defensively. But then again, is that me wanting to control her because she doesn't react exactly how I want her to? She says that is how it feels, she feels she can't say anything 'right' sometimes...I understand I'm not easy, I acknowledge I create these types of situations and I do want to control her (almost to defuse her like a bomb and make her safe) and I know this is what makes all of my relationships difficult because I can't force people to be what I need them to be...But I only wish she could see how difficult it is to feel that out of control and how much I desperately want her to take control. But then, may be she is but I'm too distorted to feel it? How can I know?!

Originally Posted by Torn Mind

Perhaps it's taken her this long to accept that herself, and maybe next session will be a lot better. Sounds to me like you're taking too much responsibility for making the therapy work, you shouldn't have to be dealing with all the things you talked about in your post, by yourself, almost despite having a T.

I think she does accept that I am where I am, but I think it is overwhelming for me when she doesn't help me be able to deal with the intensity of my feelings created in therapy. I tell her about harming myself, suicidal thoughts etc, and I know she cares but I have to go away and hold it together week after week. I know this is my responsibility...I think I'm just exhausted. Sometimes I ask myself to be reasonable, I think - "what could she do to help?" and I genuinely don't know...actually it is too hard to think about this topic any further right now because I am so lucky in life yet still feel this way continually.

Sometimes I do wish that there was someone I could rely on...but that is my exact issue - trust - so what do I really expect?!

Originally Posted by button30

Maybe the truth is that you can't change right now, that you are stuck and it IS her job to help you get unstuck and that is NOT asking too much from her.
Have you thought about trying another type of therapy such as CBT to make you more aware of your thoughts and to try and help you change them?

It seems that she believes the only way for me to become unstuck is to keep going through therapy, keep repeating all my issues until what she says does sink in. I really want to ask her (and in fact have but I can't remember the answer!) - "how do I know if I'm repeating but through the pain will be progress or if all I'm doing is being traumatised?" It feel like the latter at the moment but that might just be the pain of progress.

I don't think CBT is the right therapy for me. I feel quite aware of my thoughts and can even acknowledge that they aren't always helpful/logical, but I think I'm Dr Jekyll or Mr Hyde! I have totally different opposite thoughts/feelings from one moment to the next.

Originally Posted by tractionbeam0610

I don't think this is a "you" issue. You are not getting your needs met and someone needs to step up to the plate and be the person you can depend on to always be there for you.

Do you think this isn't a 'me' issue? I really want someone to step up to the plate but I think I need to learn this is a unrealistic expectation. Or I need to change what this means to me because I think I need too much. I've tried to need less but then I get stuck not being authentic, but being authentic drives people away. I feel I'm continually trying to figure out what I should expect and cope with grief of it not being up to scratch. My therapist thinks to expect someone to be perfect is 'mad' and on an adult day to day level I agree, humans are humans and will make mistakes, but deeper down when imperfection means feeling so unsafe it feels as though I could potentially die (as that is how scary it feels), I have to demand it. And it is so shameful to admit that it is that level of fear when I have no reason to be fearful...I have no idea how I became this scared!

I am sorry this is so long again. I wanted to talk to family about it all tonight but the person who would listen is ill and the other has avoided it for some reason or another. I'm not very good at saying I need someone to give me a few minutes and that I need them to care...so I end up being silent and crying on my own. This is my fault, I should ask but it is so hard when they know I need them but they can't find the time (or whatever real reason it is...which might be that I've not asked!).

Thank you, everyone, for listening, caring and supporting me.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Abby

My therapist thinks to expect someone to be perfect is 'mad' and on an adult day to day level I agree, humans are humans and will make mistakes, but deeper down when imperfection means feeling so unsafe it feels as though I could potentially die (as that is how scary it feels), I have to demand it.

Yes. I well understand this feeling.

[ECHOES]

Abby, I have a strong desire for rescue, for others to "fix it!", and especially my T at times. I've also idealized her and have told her numerous times I fantasize her having a perfect life, perfect marriage, etc. She laughs. We laugh.
I have struggled with the wanting to be taken care of, or 'mothering' as we call it. She has told me different things during the course of my therapy, including that 'we can't go back' (to our childhood to gain what we didn't have, in that specific way)(that I know, rationally, but needs to be said anyway ), and that if she "fixed it" then she would be doing me a disservice, because what she wants is for me to have that within me, she wants me to be able to feel the power and confidence of the ability to "fix it", and to have gentler and loving feelings toward myself. So then I have that always and forever, and not just when she is there or we are in contact. I love that she said this to me, and it has been helpful, even if I am a skilled backslider. I agree with you, it takes repetition, and it takes as long as it takes.

Not long ago I slipped into that desire to be mothered again, the desire for her to "fix it" again. I think I wanted to be physically comforted, with a hug. She told me "I can't mother you in that way, but I do want to give you everything I have to help you."
I was able to tell her that it just seems to make sense, on one level in my mind, that if I missed being loved, then love is the "fix", the thing that will fill up that gaping wound once and for all. I told her that it "makes sense" to me that she can "love me well" (to wellness). Even feeling silly, as a grown woman speaking to another grown woman, saying this, it was good to get out there.

I think the process of letting go of idealization is really difficult. We want to 'be one' with our perfect therapist, but the reality is that we are separate, and neither of us is perfect. I hope your T keeps helping you with this, because we can arrive in a place that feels even better than the fantasy we hold tight.

It does hurt and can make a person feel so alone when the intense feelings are there. At those times I have been able to go for an extra session. Is that possible for you?
By going to an extra session at those times, I eventually began to get relief from the intense feelings through talking about what was going on. That can help the whole therapy process, learning that there is relief in talking about it (I'm not the world's greatest talker).

Like you, times when the feelings are too much to 'sit with', and I need to move on, I've tried ways to calm them-- through distraction, relaxation, or an as-needed medication.

Do you know specifically what you wish your T would do to help you? What do you imagine when you think of her helping you with the intense feelings?

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

if she "fixed it" then she would be doing me a disservice, because what she wants is for me to have that within me, she wants me to be able to feel the power and confidence of the ability to "fix it", and to have gentler and loving feelings toward myself.

Many years ago I read of a British therapist, who treated anorexic people, that his therapy was to "not only reassure the patient, but to make it possible for the patient to reassure herself". I knew then that this must be a good therapist -- and I felt how rare it was to find such a person.

[Sannah]

Abby, I think that there is a T out there who can handle your anger. It sounds like you need a rock in your life and this T doesn't seem to be able to do this for you (and family either).

Abby this sounds exactly like my XT. I think some of her issues got messed up with mine and it felt like Therapy was causing more harm then good. I'm with many others in saying perhaps you should try another T. One who can contain your emotions and keep their issues out of it. Going to another T was the best thing I could have done for myself and I also went into knowing I would have parental transference and making sure that new T could handle that.

[Abby]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

Abby, I have a strong desire for rescue, for others to "fix it!", and especially my T at times. and that if she "fixed it" then she would be doing me a disservice, because what she wants is for me to have that within me, she wants me to be able to feel the power and confidence of the ability to "fix it", and to have gentler and loving feelings toward myself. So then I have that always and forever, and not just when she is there or we are in contact. I love that she said this to me, and it has been helpful, even if I am a skilled backslider. I agree with you, it takes repetition, and it takes as long as it takes.

then love is the "fix", the thing that will fill up that gaping wound once and for all. I told her that it "makes sense" to me that she can "love me well" (to wellness).

We want to 'be one' with our perfect therapist, but the reality is that we are separate, and neither of us is perfect. I hope your T keeps helping you with this, because we can arrive in a place that feels even better than the fantasy we hold tight.

It does hurt and can make a person feel so alone when the intense feelings are there.

Do you know specifically what you wish your T would do to help you? What do you imagine when you think of her helping you with the intense feelings?

That is exactly what my therapist says, that she can't 'fix it'. When I asked her "why not?" she told me that isn't how it works, and logically I understand that but it frustrates me a lot! But your therapist said she could 'fix it' but that it is best you do it for it to make a real difference? That would make me really angry as it would feel like she was with-holding from me. How do you cope with that when you desperately want her to 'fix it'? I understand the long-term objective (that does sound lovely) but I don't think I could hear that from my therapist without feeling really angry.

I have a big gaping hole inside me that I am searching for someone to fill. I've told my therapist that too. It "makes sense" to me too that person has to exist, I have to believe that because I'm not sure I could live with the alternative. I don't want the reality that I'm a distinct seperate person and that everyone is seperate from everyone else. I hate it! I understand this is a big issue for me because denying reality will only set me up to be hurt when I'm forced to confront it, but I have no idea how to accept it. I do want beyond this fantasy, I am aware it is a fantasy, but I don't want reality. I think I am very stuck!

How do you talk about the intense feelings? I don't feel I can convey them well enough and I think I'm quite articulate in general. Often I sit in silence in therapy when I feel too much because I don't have any words that I can find.

I would like her to ask how I have been coping in the week. Not simply "how have things been since we last spoke?" but a meaningul "I remember you had this to do, how did it go?". Or "when you feel overwhelmed and alone, if I was there I'd notice you even when noone else can - you are not invisible". "Your feelings matter to me". I think I'd hear that more than "I'm alongside you" "I'm interested" which feel very distancing even though I know they likely sound the same to everyone reading this! I have talked to her about her language but I don't think she understands the difference.

Originally Posted by Sannah

Abby, I think that there is a T out there who can handle your anger. It sounds like you need a rock in your life and this T doesn't seem to be able to do this for you (and family either).

But maybe there are no rocks in life and that is something I need to accept? I am feeling really disappointed by my family at the moment, their lack of acknowledgement of me in any meaninful way adds to the feeling of being overwhelmed. I understand things are busy but I really wish that someone sat down and wanted to find out how I'm feeling. I'm not sure if this means that a) my feelings are too much, b) I need to wait till there is time or c) they think I'm able to cope better than I really can.

Originally Posted by LolaCabanna

Abby this sounds exactly like my XT. I think some of her issues got messed up with mine and it felt like Therapy was causing more harm then good. I'm with many others in saying perhaps you should try another T. One who can contain your emotions and keep their issues out of it. Going to another T was the best thing I could have done for myself and I also went into knowing I would have parental transference and making sure that new T could handle that.

I'm having a break so going to try and let my feelings calm down a bit then I will try and use some logic/cost-benefit analysis. How did you manage to deal with this situation? How did you disentangle yourself from your exT? Unfortunately her saying that I don't want to change creates a desperate need in me to be "a good girl" and that if only I "tried harder" I would not feel so bad. This is quite an intense feeling at the moment. But somewhere there is a flashing light is going off because I have spoken very openly about how our interaction is effecting me and I think if I had felt this was acknowledged more that superficially I wouldn't have felt the need to pull away from her....so to say I don't want to change is a bit too simplistic and hurtful. There is a difference between 'not wanting to change' and being 'unable to change'. Or does this sound as though I'm making excuses for myself?

Originally Posted by Abby

There is a difference between 'not wanting to change' and being 'unable to change'.

or being unable to change with her as your T. I wish you well, I know that be a good girl feeling. I have set myself up for that a time or two and when I'm inevitably not the good girl, I become a really good bad girl!

[ECHOES]

That is exactly what my therapist says, that she can't 'fix it'. When I asked her "why not?" she told me that isn't how it works, and logically I understand that but it frustrates me a lot!

Yes it is frustrating, painful, terribly sad and lonely-feeling.

But your therapist said she could 'fix it' but that it is best you do it for it to make a real difference? That would make me really angry as it would feel like she was with-holding from me. How do you cope with that when you desperately want her to 'fix it'? I understand the long-term objective (that does sound lovely) but I don't think I could hear that from my therapist without feeling really angry.

No, she just said that "if" she could. I look at it as feeling anxious and worried about a toddler learning to walk and one day when the toddler falls down and cries, picking up that toddler and never letting her walk again, because the risk of pain is too great. But from our adult perspective, we know that the toddler is going to master walking after some practice. And we'll be there when she falls down. And well be there when she wanders off to happily explore what catches her interests, glad knowing that she is through the worst of the falling down, and is now confident in her abilities, and has advanced to exploring freely. What if the toddler had really never been allowed to walk again?

How to talk about the intense feelings? It's hard and I'm not very articulate at those times especially. I usually end up in tears and we talk about what began the feelings, and we keep talking and I feel heard and understood, and relieved. They have been building blocks of our relationship, as she gets to know me better, and I come to trust her more.
I have also talked about how frustrating it is to have those feelings and no way to get rid of them, and what do I do with them. It is hard and exhausting waiting for them to subside. Writing helped me a lot. Focusing on T sometimes did, but sometimes made it worse.

It also helped me to try to take notice as often as possible of the kind things my T did do for me - scheduling an extra session, changing the time of a session, adjusting the shades when the sun was in my eyes, adjusting the heat or a/c, etc. She may not hug me or use the soothing words I would like to hear, but there is other evidence of her being there for me, on my side. I looked for it and found it, so I know it. Her words would have only been words.

Still, tell her what you would like to hear. It will help her, knowing what you want.
She may get to the point where she can do that, but not might not be the time yet.

Go ahead and talk about idealizing her and let her tell you that she's not perfect. It helps, even if it is frustrating and painful.

Others, with different experiences and knowledge have suggested another T might be more helpful. Maybe this is true. Have you considered seeing someone else for a few visits to talk about all this?

[Abby]

Originally Posted by LolaCabanna

or being unable to change with her as your T. I wish you well, I know that be a good girl feeling. I have set myself up for that a time or two and when I'm inevitably not the good girl, I become a really good bad girl!

Thank you. You're right, trying hard to be the 'good girl' often leads down the road of self-destruction.

Originally Posted by ECHOES

I look at it as feeling anxious and worried about a toddler learning to walk and one day when the toddler falls down and cries, picking up that toddler and never letting her walk again, because the risk of pain is too great. But from our adult perspective, we know that the toddler is going to master walking after some practice. And we'll be there when she falls down. And well be there when she wanders off to happily explore what catches her interests, glad knowing that she is through the worst of the falling down, and is now confident in her abilities, and has advanced to exploring freely. What if the toddler had really never been allowed to walk again?

It also helped me to try to take notice as often as possible of the kind things my T did do for me - but there is other evidence of her being there for me, on my side. I looked for it and found it, so I know it.

Have you considered seeing someone else for a few visits to talk about all this?

Thank you.

I like your analogy. I understand it more now. However, I wonder about the toddler that keeps falling as she learns to walk...my problem is that I think no one will be there to notice and pick me up. Does this trust that someone will 'be there' only come with repetition? Should I even expect this of someone? Am I that important!? Perhaps because I don't think anyone will come I cry more loudly than I would if I trusted someone would care? I think I'm so fearful of falling that when I'm 'told' to walk on my own I scream loudly! Honestly, given a choice, I probably would give up all good in life to stop the pain.

Generally, even when I'm the most angry or upset, I can find evidence that my therapist cares too. The problem is it feels as though it was a different therapist. Logically I know it isn't but inside I can't match up the evidence with 'what she has done to me' (e.g. made me feel bad). I think that is the distortion she told me about. I feel she wants me to see the good and bad together, and she gets really frustrated when I 'forget it' time after time...her frustration and anger really upsets me because I don't want to forget, I feel defective enough that despite having evidence I still feel as I do so to add her anger/frustration on top of it all makes me feel so ashamed.

I've not really thought about the next step yet. I think I need some time to gather my feelings. I've realised the way things are at the moment I am on my own with this (apart from all the amazing support on here!!) so I feel a lot of pain from that too. I still feel really lost. But it is really nice having somewhere to talk, and people that care enough to reply to me. That means a lot to me.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by Abby

I don't want the reality that I'm a distinct seperate person and that everyone is seperate from everyone else. I hate it!

This is really important ^. Have you talked to your T about this? I'm also thinking boundaries in your family.

Originally Posted by Abby

But maybe there are no rocks in life and that is something I need to accept?

I don't believe this at all.

Originally Posted by Abby

I am feeling really disappointed by my family at the moment, their lack of acknowledgement of me in any meaninful way adds to the feeling of being overwhelmed. I understand things are busy but I really wish that someone sat down and wanted to find out how I'm feeling.

I'm not sure if this means that a) my feelings are too much, b) I need to wait till there is time or c) they think I'm able to cope better than I really can.

I think that there are more choices that you didn't mention. (More explanations than just the a,b,c).

Originally Posted by Abby

my problem is that I think no one will be there to notice and pick me up. Perhaps because I don't think anyone will come I cry more loudly than I would if I trusted someone would care? I think I'm so fearful of falling that when I'm 'told' to walk on my own I scream loudly!

This ^ is really important too. Could you talk to your T about this?