[rainbow8]

I'm trying to work out once and for all what I call T's "lying" to me. I've brought it up with her a few times, and it hurts me whenever I do. She has said that she's sorry.

Today when I said "I hate you" it was about her taking the things away from me, especially holding her hand. I told her "you said every time I asked you that you'd never take 'holding your hand' away. I asked you almost every session. You lied to me!" She said that she couldn't let me hold her hand forever, or something to that effect.

Then I said "you just took it away without discussing it with me. Once we did something where you let me hold your hand, then you slowly took it away. That was okay for me. After that time, I remember a session where you said I could hold your hand only for a short time, and you let go. So I KNEW what you were doing but you still didn't discuss it with me."

Then there's the two walks we took, and the emails. I knew that maybe all of this was going to be hard to ever give up, but like a kid eating too much candy, I kept my thoughts to myself for a long time. Then I told her.

Today I said I've been in therapy longer than she's been practicing, and she admitted maybe it was her inexperience, and I knew better than she did, that these things would trigger me.

That's when I said it's not fair, I'm your job, and I wish you had acted like that from the beginning. I said "what good is it to feel connected to you?" and I answered myself saying "there's a reason. I know there is."

I felt more connected to her after this conversation. When she had me "go inside", I was calm and sad, but not angry.

I know my T didn't mean to lie to me. At first she didn't realize she was giving me too much. I don't think holding hands was wrong, and emailing me wasn't wrong either. She agreed that the goal was for me to internalize the caring, and I think I've done that. I don't think she realized how attached I would get to her though I told her about my pattern. I think she should have known.

The answer to my question maybe is irrelevant. She didn't tell me "I didn't lie" or tell me "I did lie". I think she wanted me to stop wanting to hold her hand when I was ready, but realized I'd never be ready. Maybe I would have, though. We could have stopped it more gradually.

I told her today that I feel heavy when I think about separating. We did SE about it. I am very glad that I have all this time to work on this issue as an issue which was hard to do when I wasn't actually leaving therapy. I think it will be okay this time. It helps to tell my T exactly what my feelings are and then she helps me with where I feel them. i never did this with my other Ts. It's hard but productive work.

Rainbow, you are an experienced parent and grandparent, so you know full well that people--be they parents, teachers, therapists, friends, etc.--go into things with the best of intentions and then have to change course as they bump into the individuality of those children, students, clients, and friends they are in contact with. I don't see that as lying at all. I see that as doing the best job we can with the information we have at the time, but having to go to plan B or C or D as we find things are not as we initially thought.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

Rainbow, you are an experienced parent and grandparent, so you know full well that people--be they parents, teachers, therapists, friends, etc.--go into things with the best of intentions and then have to change course as they bump into the individuality of those children, students, clients, and friends they are in contact with. I don't see that as lying at all. I see that as doing the best job we can with the information we have at the time, but having to go to plan B or C or D as we find things are not as we initially thought.

Chris, thank you. Yes, I do know that. I think the transference kicks in about this issue because it's the child part of me who initially felt so good and safe holding T's hand. "She took it away. She lied. It's not fair". Those are all said with a child's limited understanding of the adult world. My adult "Self" knows T changed course FOR me, and because we are a team, I helped her (though reluctantly) do what was best for me.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Chris, thank you. Yes, I do know that. I think the transference kicks in about this issue because it's the child part of me who initially felt so good and safe holding T's hand. "She took it away. She lied. It's not fair". Those are all said with a child's limited understanding of the adult world. My adult "Self" knows T changed course FOR me, and because we are a team, I helped her (though reluctantly) do what was best for me.

I think it's good you're getting in touch with those, with the adult self looking on. It's holding onto that contradiction - but yeah, I got that that was the point you were making in your post, that you had the guts now to say, you were lying to me. It's like kids finding out about the tooth fairy - sorta! You - ie the kid - only do that - can only accept it - AFTER a certain point.

[skysblue]

Once when my therapist did something that hurt me and was not in the best way I would expect a therapist to act, she responded by apologizing and then admitting that she is human and will make mistakes like everyone else.

And I said, "But I thought you were perfect." Of course, intellectually I know she's human and as prone to mistakes as anyone else, but my need then was for her to be 'perfect'.

I'm sure your T did not 'lie". In other words, her intention at the time was the truth at that time. As things evolved so did her understanding of your needs and she knew the necessity to change. We would hope that T's could be flexible and adjust to circumstances and not be held hostage to some words that, although well-intended at the time, were no longer useful.

And, we would also hope that no one else will hold us to the impossible standard that we sometimes hold our T's to.

[stopdog]

In my opinion, knowledge of them, and experience as both a client and a professional, therapists lie and manipulate all the time. It is their job. It is what they are trained to do. They rarely admit it and when they do they blame the client or say it is because the therapist was acting for the client's behalf. They are tools to use and that is all. Trusting them for more than they are is not a good idea.
Problems arise when clients think therapists are other than that.

T's are human. It sounds like your T is inexperienced and probably did not realize the extent of your "problem" even though you told her.
Perhaps you liked that she was inexperienced because she gave into you.

Your T may do some of those things with other clients, but with you she could not and finally realized it was not working. It is like feeding a lion. Give too much or too long and your arm gets bit off.

She is not lying. She was realizing that she was not helping you and changing things. At least she seemed to recognize that her behaviors were doing more harm than good in terms of the therapy focus.

Sounds like she might have been in over her head and in her inexperience, she was easy to manipulate. As she spent more time, she changed things for you and her.

[boredporcupine]

I think there's a difference between lying and changing your mind. Lying is saying something you know to be untrue at the time you said it. Changing your mind could mean you said you would do one thing, having the full intention to do that, but then later something convinced you to do something else instead.

I think your T changed her mind. I think it's very unfortunate that she did, because it seems to have hurt you and your trust for her. I admire you for persevering in working it out with her in spite of that.

I had a former T who told me "I am not going anywhere" and acted very confident that she could help me. Then after a couple months when I was already very attached to her, she referred me to someone else. I felt very hurt/confused/betrayed by the whole thing, and it took me many months to make peace with the fact that she really just didn't know exactly what she was doing with me, in spite of good intentions.

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Therapists lie and manipulate all the time. It is their job. It is what they are trained to do. They rarely admit it and when they do they blame the client or say it is because the therapist was acting for the client's behalf.

That is a broad stroke accusation. They are human - possibly there are some who lie and manipulate and others who do not.

My therapist does not lie. I trust her. She may make mistakes and she HAS admitted when she has.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by hankster

I think it's good you're getting in touch with those, with the adult self looking on. It's holding onto that contradiction - but yeah, I got that that was the point you were making in your post, that you had the guts now to say, you were lying to me. It's like kids finding out about the tooth fairy - sorta! You - ie the kid - only do that - can only accept it - AFTER a certain point.

You hit the nail on the head this time, hankster. I'm glad you understand!

Originally Posted by skysblue

Once when my therapist did something that hurt me and was not in the best way I would expect a therapist to act, she responded by apologizing and then admitting that she is human and will make mistakes like everyone else.

And I said, "But I thought you were perfect." Of course, intellectually I know she's human and as prone to mistakes as anyone else, but my need then was for her to be 'perfect'.

I'm sure your T did not 'lie". In other words, her intention at the time was the truth at that time. As things evolved so did her understanding of your needs and she knew the necessity to change. We would hope that T's could be flexible and adjust to circumstances and not be held hostage to some words that, although well-intended at the time, were no longer useful.

And, we would also hope that no one else will hold us to the impossible standard that we sometimes hold our T's to.

I know that my T feels bad about it because she takes her work very seriously and has told me many times that she does not want to hurt me. I like her because she's human. It's just hard for the child parts to accept the changes.

Originally Posted by stopdog

Therapists lie and manipulate all the time. It is their job. It is what they are trained to do. They rarely admit it and when they do they blame the client or say it is because the therapist was acting for the client's behalf. They are tools to use and that is all. Trusting them for more than they are is not a good idea.
Problems arise when clients think therapists are other than that.

stopdog, it's hard for me accept what you wrote. My T would not lie on purpose, and I still trust her. I don't think it's true that Ts lie and manipulate all of the time. I'm sorry that you have such a negative view of therapy.

Originally Posted by Stringcheese

T's are human. It sounds like your T is inexperienced and probably did not realize the extent of your "problem" even though you told her.
Perhaps you liked that she was inexperienced because she gave into you.

Your T may do some of those things with other clients, but with you she could not and finally realized it was not working. It is like feeding a lion. Give too much or too long and your arm gets bit off.

She is not lying. She was realizing that she was not helping you and changing things. At least she seemed to recognize that her behaviors were doing more harm than good in terms of the therapy focus.

Sounds like she might have been in over her head and in her inexperience, she was easy to manipulate. As she spent more time, she changed things for you and her.

I still believe it was not so terrible or detrimental that my T answered all of my emails at first, and let me hold her hand. I felt that "blanket of love" and it inspired me to write a beautiful poem about it.

I can read the emails and see how she cared and cares about me too. I'm trying to put it into perspective. I didn't manipulate her; she freely offered to do both those things, and I accepted. I won't ever forget that safe feeling of holding hands. I learned that I can feel that way other times too.

It's hard to give it up, but maybe, just maybe, I don't have to give it up. At the time, T said that the "blanket of love" lives inside of me, and it's available to me any time. I didn't understand back then, but it's slowly sinking in.

Originally Posted by boredporcupine

I think there's a difference between lying and changing your mind. Lying is saying something you know to be untrue at the time you said it. Changing your mind could mean you said you would do one thing, having the full intention to do that, but then later something convinced you to do something else instead.

I think your T changed her mind. I think it's very unfortunate that she did, because it seems to have hurt you and your trust for her. I admire you for persevering in working it out with her in spite of that.

Yes, it hurt my trust for her, but I think I'm working through those feelings now. Talking to her about it today helped a little, and maybe I have to talk about it again. You're right. She didn't lie, but changed her mind. I know my T and she is a very compassionate, caring person. I won't ever doubt that. I think today's session helped me a lot.

[mixedup_emotions]

You've gotten some great feedback, rainbow.

As far as the idea that Ts lie and manipulate...As my T and I were working through our rupture, I told T that I felt manipulated by him. He said, "We always manipulate. That's what therapy is" or something along those lines. It doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing. It's taking a course of action for a purpose in order to get a certain result. It's hard for me to see that T's responses to me are "just a strategy"....but I try to separate that from his caring.

[gaia67]

Originally Posted by skysblue

Once when my therapist did something that hurt me and was not in the best way I would expect a therapist to act, she responded by apologizing and then admitting that she is human and will make mistakes like everyone else.

And I said, "But I thought you were perfect." Of course, intellectually I know she's human and as prone to mistakes as anyone else, but my need then was for her to be 'perfect'.

I'm sure your T did not 'lie". In other words, her intention at the time was the truth at that time. As things evolved so did her understanding of your needs and she knew the necessity to change. We would hope that T's could be flexible and adjust to circumstances and not be held hostage to some words that, although well-intended at the time, were no longer useful.

And, we would also hope that no one else will hold us to the impossible standard that we sometimes hold our T's to.

This is really great advice.

Sent from my LG-MS770 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

I don't understand. You were the one who wrote that "I knew that maybe all of this was going to be hard to ever give up, but like a kid eating too much candy, I kept my thoughts to myself for a long time" and "I knew better than she did, that these things would trigger me," so how is that not manipulation?

If you knew better than she because she was inexperienced, weren't you using it to get what you need? It's not a good or bad thing, it is what happened. Many people do it probably in their lives, but the difference is that she is a T, not a person to fulfill all our needs and wants. Your pattern involved manipulation if you knew what you were doing and getting from it, more so than your T realized.

She was inexperienced and probably learned alot. If she was more seasoned, she probably would have avoided many of her behaviors from the beginning.

One thing I forget to add, you mention "blanket of love." The point of therapy is to find that "blanket of love" in the real world. Even if we have crappy familyies, that "blanket" could come from friends.

I think the point of T is learning to love yourself and learning to love others... and get our needs met and meet the needs of others.

A T is a teacher, a guide... not the "blanket of love" to keep forever.
They may care about our journey, but their love is conditional on the professional relationship.

A "blanket of love" should come from others that we don't pay for their services. Real love does not come with $$ attached.

[boredporcupine]

Originally Posted by Stringcheese

A "blanket of love" should come from others that we don't pay for their services. Real love does not come with $$ attached.

I strongly disagree with this. We are paying our T's to give us undivided attention, to apply therapeutic techniques, and to keep their own "stuff" out of the room, but that doesn't mean they can't genuinely love us in addition.

[Miswimmy1]

I had a similar experience with my old t. She said she would never abandon me and yet she terminated us. I went through the similar "I hate you"s, and the "you said u wouldn't lie to me" and all that. It's painful. My heart really goes out to you. But sometimes therapists make promises that were fitting at the time, and times change. In order to help u grow through the process. I'm sure your t has your best interests at heart even if it doesn't seem like that...

Originally Posted by boredporcupine

I strongly disagree with this. We are paying our T's to give us undivided attention, to apply therapeutic techniques, and to keep their own "stuff" out of the room, but that doesn't mean they can't genuinely love us in addition.

They may, but it is a professional relationship... like a teacher. They want us to do well and may like/love us, but it is professional.
At the end of the day, if the $$ was not there and their job was cancelled, they would not be in our lives that much. Maybe a email or card, but its professional. It will always be one-sided.

[Miswimmy1]

Originally Posted by Stringcheese

A "blanket of love" should come from others that we don't pay for their services. Real love does not come with $$ attached.

I wanted to comment on this...

I agree with u to some extent- therapy is with the intent to find a way to fill those holes in our lives with someone in the real world. T is the one to help that process. However, I was in a residential place that too this idea very seriously. They couldn't comprehend the close relationship I had with my. They were bsolutely mind boggled. So what did they do? They cut off the relationship, blaming bad boundaries. That was the most hurtful thing I've ever been through. Therefore, I think it's a spectrum... U can either very much embrace this idea of the t relationship being strictly paid and professional, or u could look at the flip side and see that yes, although u pay for their services, most ts are very invested on a personal level in each of their clients. I think it depends on the individual t and the individual client. I do not think that's its black and white and it really depends on the individual situation and where each client is in treatment.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by Stringcheese

I don't understand. You were the one who wrote that "I knew that maybe all of this was going to be hard to ever give up, but like a kid eating too much candy, I kept my thoughts to myself for a long time" and "I knew better than she did, that these things would trigger me," so how is that not manipulation?

If you knew better than she because she was inexperienced, weren't you using it to get what you need? It's not a good or bad thing, it is what happened. Many people do it probably in their lives, but the difference is that she is a T, not a person to fulfill all our needs and wants. Your pattern involved manipulation if you knew what you were doing and getting from it, more so than your T realized.

She was inexperienced and probably learned alot. If she was more seasoned, she probably would have avoided many of her behaviors from the beginning.

I agree with all 3 of your posts in this thread, Stringcheese. From Rainbow's earliest posts, I have felt that her T seems a bit inexperienced and wishy-washy when it comes to boundaries pertaining to Rainbow's "pattern." I don't think that it's fair to say "always do X" or "never do X" when it comes to BPD or any other dx, however, I do think T's should be aware of the primary characteristics associated with their clients' dx and the profession's *general* wisdom regarding treatment. In my understanding, it's considered "common knowledge" in the psychiatric profession that clients with BPD *generally* seek as much attention, reassurance, contact, validation, and "feeling special" as they can get-- and that it is not always in the client's best interests for the T to simply provide that. Why? (1) because the need is often insatiable and (2) because it hinders the client's ability to grow and change; to develop coping skills, independence, self-validation, and the ability to learn how to get those needs met in RL. While some clients without the obsessive characteristics of BPD (or other dxs) can benefit from getting that extra contact/validation early in therapy as part of building a secure attachment to the T, when clients have those obsessive tendencies, that extra contact/validation can really spiral out of control. That's why, in my opinion, if a T is told up front, by Rainbow, that she has BPD and she has displayed obsessive tendencies towards her Ts in the past (her pattern), I think her T should have seen the writing on the wall and done things differently from Day 1. I think a lot of us who have been on the forum since Rainbow began posting (3 years ago), saw this coming right away. If we could see it, I think her T should have been able to see it as well. I also think her T has been very inconsistent with her boundaries. It's not just that she had loose boundaries and then tightened them (like a good parent or T might). Rainbow's T has gone back and forth many times on the e-mail rules, and has not been strict with Rainbow when she has violated them. I agree with Stringcheese that Rainbow has (consciously or unconsciously) manipulated her T many times in order to get her T to loosen the boundaries, give more self-disclosure, get more physical contact, slip in "therapy stuff" into scheduling e-mails, etc. I do think Rainbow is more knowledgeable about her pattern than her T seems to be, and I think Rainbow has been honest about her feelings and tendencies-- but she finds ways to get around the typical boundaries because the extra contact and validation "feels good." It's a legitimate temptation! I think it's T's responsibility to hold a tighter rope. I think that if her T was stricter about the boundaries it would force Rainbow to focus less on the T relationship and more on her RL. I think a more experienced and firmer hand might not "feel as good" initially, but it might lead to more progress.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by Stringcheese

One thing I forget to add, you mention "blanket of love." The point of therapy is to find that "blanket of love" in the real world. Even if we have crappy familyies, that "blanket" could come from friends.

I think the point of T is learning to love yourself and learning to love others... and get our needs met and meet the needs of others.

A T is a teacher, a guide... not the "blanket of love" to keep forever.
They may care about our journey, but their love is conditional on the professional relationship.

A "blanket of love" should come from others that we don't pay for their services. Real love does not come with $$ attached.

I agree with what you are expressing here except the one phrase that I have bolded. I agree that our T is like a guide, and that we need to work on finding that "blanket of love" from others in our RL. I agree that real love does not come with $$ attached. We cannot "buy" love from our therapists. However, I believe that some Ts do love us unconditionally. They are professionals, providing a service AND they love us unconditionally. However, that does not change their role in our life, and that does not change the boundaries that are in place. That does not change the fact that we still need to find reciprocal relationships with people in our RL.

For instance, I really believe that my T loves me unconditionally. And that matters to me. However, that changes nothing about the professional nature of our relationship. If I stop therapy, then I will stop having regular contact with my T. If I'm no longer paying for her services, then I no longer have access to those services and it would be unethical of her to suddenly be my "friend" instead of my T. But will she still love/care about me after I leave? Yes, she will. But how does that help me in my RL? Even if T does love me unconditionally, she is not a part of my RL. Our relationship is not fully reciprocal. I need to get that "blanket of love" elsewhere. Having T "fill in the gaps" sometimes can help, but that's only a transitional stage. The goal is to get everything you need from RL.

If I focused too much on the love I get from my T, I think that would detract from the reciprocal kind of love I get from my best friend, my dad, my sister, my other friends, and the women I date. The kind of love you get form your T can be unconditional, but it is not reciprocal in the same way as it is with people in RL. You don't have the opportunity to "give back" to your T the way you do with people in your RL, and I think you're really missing something when you aren't giving back. You aren't expanding your ability to communicate, connect, and reciprocate in the same way-- and you aren't reaping the same kind of rewards. As good as getting love from your T can feel, I think it feels a lot better to get love in RL.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

She said that she couldn't let me hold her hand forever, or something to that effect.

This is lousy technique. A T should never give you something she's going to take way again, unless she makes it quite clear at the beginning that it is only temporary.

And what's wrong with holding your hand, anyway?

[unaluna]

Just some more thoughts on this. My t is getting ready to go on vacation and acting all goofy. Sd might say wily! I'm inclined to attribute his actions to his unconscious feelings for me and act "around" them - as I would with my mother. But now I see - because of your "lying" thesis - that he is just trying to make a more comfortable place for me to be able to say I would miss him, for example - which I was never "allowed" to miss my mother when she was gone. For me, that's not too wily, because I have asked him to show me how normal people act.

But he must think me the dumbest and hardest dog to train he's ever had, I take such a long time. But this explains why actual dogs relate to me the way they do. I've long suspected they feel sorry for me. I think they recognize someone who's had the will trained out of them.

[Perna]

I would not think of it as lies. I look at change, as much as I don't like it, and know it has to happen; people have to die, go away, get sick, feelings have to change, thoughts and opinions change, etc. We don't "arrive" at a feeling or state in life and that's it, we are done and where we'll stay.

I think it was her inexperience (in being a therapist as well as with you) that maybe made her less than careful about meaning behind her wording of things. Like she says, you cannot hold her hand forever. She cannot come and go when you want her to, you cannot control her.

I would take her initial wording to mean, if it were possible, you could hold her hand forever. The intent is she knows you enjoy holding her hand and she wants you to feel good and be healthy; however, when she no longer believes holding your hand helps you, then she is going to have to change her behavior (because you have not/won't change yours and it is unhealthy to you or her to continue with that behavior at this time).

I married my husband because I laid my head against his chest one night and asked if we could stay like that forever and he answered "Yes" :-) Don't take the wording so literally, take the idea behind the wording to heart. It's a metaphor of sorts?

[peaches100]

I wanted to reply to something Scoriopsis said:

If I focused too much on the love I get from my T, I think that would detract from the reciprocal kind of love I get from my best friend, my dad, my sister, my other friends, and the women I date.

Although I agree with the gist of what you said, not all of us are as fortunate as you are in having friends, family, and romantic others who freely give youthe love you need. Some posterds here don't have close friends or romantic partners, and their family is anything but supportive. For those who only have support from a t, it can be very necessary to feel cared about or even loved--at least for a time.

[peaches100]

PS - I realize, though, that that's not the case with Rainbow. She did have a supportive mom and does have friends in her real life. But not everybody does.