Did T really "lie" to me?

I married my husband because I laid my head against his chest one night and asked if we could stay like that forever and he answered "Yes" :-) Don't take the wording so literally, take the idea behind the wording to heart. It's a metaphor of sorts?

I wanted to reply to something Scoriopsis said:

If I focused too much on the love I get from my T, I think that would detract from the reciprocal kind of love I get from my best friend, my dad, my sister, my other friends, and the women I date.

Although I agree with the gist of what you said, not all of us are as fortunate as you are in having friends, family, and romantic others who freely give youthe love you need. Some posterds here don't have close friends or romantic partners, and their family is anything but supportive. For those who only have support from a t, it can be very necessary to feel cared about or even loved--at least for a time.

I wanted to reply to something Scoriopsis said:

If I focused too much on the love I get from my T, I think that would detract from the reciprocal kind of love I get from my best friend, my dad, my sister, my other friends, and the women I date.

Although I agree with the gist of what you said, not all of us are as fortunate as you are in having friends, family, and romantic others who freely give youthe love you need. Some posterds here don't have close friends or romantic partners, and their family is anything but supportive. For those who only have support from a t, it can be very necessary to feel cared about or even loved--at least for a time.

I wanted to reply to something Scoriopsis said:

If I focused too much on the love I get from my T, I think that would detract from the reciprocal kind of love I get from my best friend, my dad, my sister, my other friends, and the women I date.

Although I agree with the gist of what you said, not all of us are as fortunate as you are in having friends, family, and romantic others who freely give youthe love you need. Some posterds here don't have close friends or romantic partners, and their family is anything but supportive. For those who only have support from a t, it can be very necessary to feel cared about or even loved--at least for a time.

You've gotten some great feedback, rainbow.

As far as the idea that Ts lie and manipulate...As my T and I were working through our rupture, I told T that I felt manipulated by him. He said, "We always manipulate. That's what therapy is" or something along those lines. It doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing. It's taking a course of action for a purpose in order to get a certain result. It's hard for me to see that T's responses to me are "just a strategy"....but I try to separate that from his caring.

I don't understand. You were the one who wrote that "I knew that maybe all of this was going to be hard to ever give up, but like a kid eating too much candy, I kept my thoughts to myself for a long time" and "I knew better than she did, that these things would trigger me," so how is that not manipulation? I don't think it's manipulation because I didn't start out wanting her to do these things for me. They were all her ideas. It's not all black and white. I didn't 100% know the emailing would trigger me until after a long time. I thought holding T's hand was a safe way to get the child's needs met. T said so. No other T did IFS with me so how did I know how it was going to end up? I still say that holding her hands was safe and not triggering. I guessed that doing these things may not be good for me, but I wasn't totally sure, and I'm still not sure. Triggered doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong, and liking something T does doesn't necessarily mean manipulation. When I realized that emailing was hurting, not helping, I told T. I never told her that holding her hand was hurting me, though.

If you knew better than she because she was inexperienced, weren't you using it to get what you need?Maybe, but maybe not. I don't think it was wrong for my T to fulfill some of my needs. In fact, she told me: "if holding hands is what that part needs to heal, then that's what we'll do." She wrote that in an email, and I believed her. I never thought it was harmful to me. It's not a good or bad thing, it is what happened. Many people do it probably in their lives, but the difference is that she is a T, not a person to fulfill all our needs and wants. Your pattern involved manipulation if you knew what you were doing and getting from it, more so than your T realized. Again, I'm not sure. I wondered about it because no other T emailed me of let me hold their hand, but no other T solved my attachment problems, either!!

She was inexperienced and probably learned alot. If she was more seasoned, she probably would have avoided many of her behaviors from the beginning.

One thing I forget to add, you mention "blanket of love." The point of therapy is to find that "blanket of love" in the real world. Even if we have crappy familyies, that "blanket" could come from friends.
That's exactly what my T told me. She said the "blanket of love" is within me and I can access it any time. She wasn't talking about from her, though I never quite understood what she meant.
I think the point of T is learning to love yourself and learning to love others... and get our needs met and meet the needs of others.

A T is a teacher, a guide... not the "blanket of love" to keep forever.
They may care about our journey, but their love is conditional on the professional relationship.

A "blanket of love" should come from others that we don't pay for their services. Real love does not come with $$ attached.

I strongly disagree with this. We are paying our T's to give us undivided attention, to apply therapeutic techniques, and to keep their own "stuff" out of the room, but that doesn't mean they can't genuinely love us in addition.

I had a similar experience with my old t. She said she would never abandon me and yet she terminated us. I went through the similar "I hate you"s, and the "you said u wouldn't lie to me" and all that. It's painful. My heart really goes out to you. But sometimes therapists make promises that were fitting at the time, and times change. In order to help u grow through the process. I'm sure your t has your best interests at heart even if it doesn't seem like that...

I wanted to comment on this...

I agree with u to some extent- therapy is with the intent to find a way to fill those holes in our lives with someone in the real world. T is the one to help that process. However, I was in a residential place that too this idea very seriously. They couldn't comprehend the close relationship I had with my. They were bsolutely mind boggled. So what did they do? They cut off the relationship, blaming bad boundaries. That was the most hurtful thing I've ever been through. Therefore, I think it's a spectrum... U can either very much embrace this idea of the t relationship being strictly paid and professional, or u could look at the flip side and see that yes, although u pay for their services, most ts are very invested on a personal level in each of their clients. I think it depends on the individual t and the individual client. I do not think that's its black and white and it really depends on the individual situation and where each client is in treatment.

I agree with all 3 of your posts in this thread, Stringcheese. From Rainbow's earliest posts, I have felt that her T seems a bit inexperienced and wishy-washy when it comes to boundaries pertaining to Rainbow's "pattern." I don't think that it's fair to say "always do X" or "never do X" when it comes to BPD or any other dx, however, I do think T's should be aware of the primary characteristics associated with their clients' dx and the profession's *general* wisdom regarding treatment. In my understanding, it's considered "common knowledge" in the psychiatric profession that clients with BPD *generally* seek as much attention, reassurance, contact, validation, and "feeling special" as they can get-- and that it is not always in the client's best interests for the T to simply provide that. Why? (1) because the need is often insatiable and (2) because it hinders the client's ability to grow and change; to develop coping skills, independence, self-validation, and the ability to learn how to get those needs met in RL. While some clients without the obsessive characteristics of BPD (or other dxs) can benefit from getting that extra contact/validation early in therapy as part of building a secure attachment to the T, when clients have those obsessive tendencies, that extra contact/validation can really spiral out of control. That's why, in my opinion, if a T is told up front, by Rainbow, that she has BPD and she has displayed obsessive tendencies towards her Ts in the past (her pattern), I think her T should have seen the writing on the wall and done things differently from Day 1. I think a lot of us who have been on the forum since Rainbow began posting (3 years ago), saw this coming right away. If we could see it, I think her T should have been able to see it as well. I also think her T has been very inconsistent with her boundaries. It's not just that she had loose boundaries and then tightened them (like a good parent or T might). Rainbow's T has gone back and forth many times on the e-mail rules, and has not been strict with Rainbow when she has violated them. I agree with Stringcheese that Rainbow has (consciously or unconsciously) manipulated her T many times in order to get her T to loosen the boundaries, give more self-disclosure, get more physical contact, slip in "therapy stuff" into scheduling e-mails, etc. I do think Rainbow is more knowledgeable about her pattern than her T seems to be, and I think Rainbow has been honest about her feelings and tendencies-- but she finds ways to get around the typical boundaries because the extra contact and validation "feels good." It's a legitimate temptation! I think it's T's responsibility to hold a tighter rope. I think that if her T was stricter about the boundaries it would force Rainbow to focus less on the T relationship and more on her RL. I think a more experienced and firmer hand might not "feel as good" initially, but it might lead to more progress.

I agree with what you are expressing here except the one phrase that I have bolded. I agree that our T is like a guide, and that we need to work on finding that "blanket of love" from others in our RL. I agree that real love does not come with $$ attached. We cannot "buy" love from our therapists. However, I believe that some Ts do love us unconditionally. They are professionals, providing a service AND they love us unconditionally. However, that does not change their role in our life, and that does not change the boundaries that are in place. That does not change the fact that we still need to find reciprocal relationships with people in our RL.

For instance, I really believe that my T loves me unconditionally. And that matters to me. However, that changes nothing about the professional nature of our relationship. If I stop therapy, then I will stop having regular contact with my T. If I'm no longer paying for her services, then I no longer have access to those services and it would be unethical of her to suddenly be my "friend" instead of my T. But will she still love/care about me after I leave? Yes, she will. But how does that help me in my RL? Even if T does love me unconditionally, she is not a part of my RL. Our relationship is not fully reciprocal. I need to get that "blanket of love" elsewhere. Having T "fill in the gaps" sometimes can help, but that's only a transitional stage. The goal is to get everything you need from RL.

If I focused too much on the love I get from my T, I think that would detract from the reciprocal kind of love I get from my best friend, my dad, my sister, my other friends, and the women I date. The kind of love you get form your T can be unconditional, but it is not reciprocal in the same way as it is with people in RL. You don't have the opportunity to "give back" to your T the way you do with people in your RL, and I think you're really missing something when you aren't giving back. You aren't expanding your ability to communicate, connect, and reciprocate in the same way-- and you aren't reaping the same kind of rewards. As good as getting love from your T can feel, I think it feels a lot better to get love in RL.

I agree with all 3 of your posts in this thread, Stringcheese. From Rainbow's earliest posts, I have felt that her T seems a bit inexperienced and wishy-washy when it comes to boundaries pertaining to Rainbow's "pattern." I don't think that it's fair to say "always do X" or "never do X" when it comes to BPD or any other dx, however, I do think T's should be aware of the primary characteristics associated with their clients' dx and the profession's *general* wisdom regarding treatment. In my understanding, it's considered "common knowledge" in the psychiatric profession that clients with BPD *generally* seek as much attention, reassurance, contact, validation, and "feeling special" as they can get-- and that it is not always in the client's best interests for the T to simply provide that. Why? (1) because the need is often insatiable and (2) because it hinders the client's ability to grow and change; to develop coping skills, independence, self-validation, and the ability to learn how to get those needs met in RL. While some clients without the obsessive characteristics of BPD (or other dxs) can benefit from getting that extra contact/validation early in therapy as part of building a secure attachment to the T, when clients have those obsessive tendencies, that extra contact/validation can really spiral out of control. That's why, in my opinion, if a T is told up front, by Rainbow, that she has BPD and she has displayed obsessive tendencies towards her Ts in the past (her pattern), I think her T should have seen the writing on the wall and done things differently from Day 1. I think a lot of us who have been on the forum since Rainbow began posting (3 years ago), saw this coming right away. If we could see it, I think her T should have been able to see it as well. I also think her T has been very inconsistent with her boundaries. It's not just that she had loose boundaries and then tightened them (like a good parent or T might). Rainbow's T has gone back and forth many times on the e-mail rules, and has not been strict with Rainbow when she has violated them. I agree with Stringcheese that Rainbow has (consciously or unconsciously) manipulated her T many times in order to get her T to loosen the boundaries, give more self-disclosure, get more physical contact, slip in "therapy stuff" into scheduling e-mails, etc. I do think Rainbow is more knowledgeable about her pattern than her T seems to be, and I think Rainbow has been honest about her feelings and tendencies-- but she finds ways to get around the typical boundaries because the extra contact and validation "feels good." It's a legitimate temptation! I think it's T's responsibility to hold a tighter rope. I think that if her T was stricter about the boundaries it would force Rainbow to focus less on the T relationship and more on her RL. I think a more experienced and firmer hand might not "feel as good" initially, but it might lead to more progress.

You've gotten some great feedback, rainbow.

As far as the idea that Ts lie and manipulate...As my T and I were working through our rupture, I told T that I felt manipulated by him. He said, "We always manipulate. That's what therapy is" or something along those lines. It doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing. It's taking a course of action for a purpose in order to get a certain result. It's hard for me to see that T's responses to me are "just a strategy"....but I try to separate that from his caring.

This is lousy technique. A T should never give you something she's going to take way again, unless she makes it quite clear at the beginning that it is only temporary.

And what's wrong with holding your hand, anyway?

Just some more thoughts on this. My t is getting ready to go on vacation and acting all goofy. Sd might say wily! I'm inclined to attribute his actions to his unconscious feelings for me and act "around" them - as I would with my mother. But now I see - because of your "lying" thesis - that he is just trying to make a more comfortable place for me to be able to say I would miss him, for example - which I was never "allowed" to miss my mother when she was gone. For me, that's not too wily, because I have asked him to show me how normal people act.

But he must think me the dumbest and hardest dog to train he's ever had, I take such a long time. But this explains why actual dogs relate to me the way they do. I've long suspected they feel sorry for me. I think they recognize someone who's had the will trained out of them.

I would not think of it as lies. I look at change, as much as I don't like it, and know it has to happen; people have to die, go away, get sick, feelings have to change, thoughts and opinions change, etc. We don't "arrive" at a feeling or state in life and that's it, we are done and where we'll stay.

I think it was her inexperience (in being a therapist as well as with you) that maybe made her less than careful about meaning behind her wording of things. Like she says, you cannot hold her hand forever. She cannot come and go when you want her to, you cannot control her.

I would take her initial wording to mean, if it were possible, you could hold her hand forever. The intent is she knows you enjoy holding her hand and she wants you to feel good and be healthy; however, when she no longer believes holding your hand helps you, then she is going to have to change her behavior (because you have not/won't change yours and it is unhealthy to you or her to continue with that behavior at this time).
I thinks that's exactly how it was. Thanks.
I married my husband because I laid my head against his chest one night and asked if we could stay like that forever and he answered "Yes" :-) Don't take the wording so literally, take the idea behind the wording to heart. It's a metaphor of sorts? Thanks, Perna.

I wanted to reply to something Scoriopsis said:

If I focused too much on the love I get from my T, I think that would detract from the reciprocal kind of love I get from my best friend, my dad, my sister, my other friends, and the women I date.

Although I agree with the gist of what you said, not all of us are as fortunate as you are in having friends, family, and romantic others who freely give youthe love you need. Some posterds here don't have close friends or romantic partners, and their family is anything but supportive. For those who only have support from a t, it can be very necessary to feel cared about or even loved--at least for a time.

PS - I realize, though, that that's not the case with Rainbow. She did have a supportive mom and does have friends in her real life. But not everybody does.

Rainbow,

I think you're doing a great job of understanding that your t changed her mind, rather than lying. It's good also that you are able to distinguish the thoughts and feelings of your "child" part versus how the "adult" part of you feels. While recognizing that the child part of you feels sad and angry and feels lied to, the adult part of you can kick in and help that child part to understand things in a more realistic way.

I personally think you are doing great in your therapy!

I like that. You mean but you don't MEAN it. But you mean it!

Those are all said with a child's limited understanding of the adult world.

Children have a limited understanding of the adult world, yes. But you're an adult. I get the feeling that you are able and capable of seeing the world through an adult's eyes and experience, and in a sustained manner, but perhaps you feel closer and more connected to your therapist when you interact with her more as a child -could this be true?

But if you don't have that IRL and a therapist attempts to fulfill/replace the needs and wants that would otherwise be provided by people IRL, would this not *potentially* lead someone to not seek this in IRL because they already have it? Does this not potentially take away the motivation (and freedom, in a way) to do this?

If you don't have it, why go out and seek it if you have it in your therapist? But since the therapist isn't always going to be there (and as has been shown on the forum, at times, may not always give the same amount of themselves down the road), then maybe not getting all of this from one's therapist can help *encourage* people to at least seek it elsewhere, as hard as it can be to find sometimes?

I think we have the capacity to take love in from many sources, and not have it distract from other relationships. If it becomes an issue then it warrants a discussion in therapy. It could be a transference issue that needs to be tweaked.

I don't understand something. Why do you keep posting all the time if you already know everything and the answers?
Scorposis wrote a very well thought out response and took alot of time to respond. It was insightful and educated. It seems the reality is that nothing matters but what you want to hear to fit your current state of mind.

It does not seem your "attachment problems" are solved at all. Think about the situation.
You are not choosing to leave therapy to live your life. You are being forced to leave therapy by financial issues and perhaps T's decision by not lowering the rate. You would stay if you could.

This is true I think, at not at all "wrong". Where I think the trouble can start is if/when the client seeks to find love/support only from the therapist, at the exclusion of all others.

I can honestly say that I felt love from another person for the first time in my life from my therapist. It was unbelievable. However, a pivotal moment came when I was able to internalize that love and carry it out into my life.

Those feelings may be necessary, but they can't be sufficient.

Also, I no longer see that therapist, but that love is still there. The physical presence isn't, but we still share a very powerful connection and always will.

People post for different reasons. Not all responses resonate with all posters. Not everyone is looking to have themselves spoken about in the third person or for advice from people who are critical. Some people are looking for advice, but not everyone. I do not look for advice, for example. I like to read about how others see themselves in therapy. I don't really care what others think about me in therapy.
Sometimes posting is done to help the poster work something out rather than for advice. I am not saying people should not post what they want, but I do think it is unrealistic to expect that just because one person finds one post useful, that everyone, or even the original poster will do so. Regardless of how much it resonates with some, it will not, and in my opinion, is not even probable for it to be expected to resonate or be useful for everyone.

Thanks Mixed Emotions, if I had known that therapy was just lies, strategy and manipulation, I would never have bothered. I've never been more hurt in my life. You don't play with peoples feelings. That's my belief. I sure know better now than to trust another T again. It's not for me. I'd rather be.....

I don't know why I keep posting. Probably for connection and validation. I don't know all the answers but TBH, it tears me apart to hear my T being criticized. What good is it to me to hear all of that spelled out? Yes, I appreciate advice that I can use. But to hear all the mistakes my T made is useless to me, and it stings. I don't want to hear about what she did wrong. That doesn't help me one bit, but just makes me defensive.

Yes, I'd stay in therapy if I could. T and I are addressing that all the time now. I don't think anyone can "cure" my attachment. I have to live with it, and probably die with it. I accept that fact.

Today I said I've been in therapy longer than she's been practicing, and she admitted maybe it was her inexperience, and I knew better than she did, that these things would trigger me.

I know my T didn't mean to lie to me. At first she didn't realize she was giving me too much. I don't think holding hands was wrong, and emailing me wasn't wrong either. She agreed that the goal was for me to internalize the caring, and I think I've done that. I don't think she realized how attached I would get to her though I told her about my pattern. I think she should have known.

The answer to my question maybe is irrelevant. She didn't tell me "I didn't lie" or tell me "I did lie". I think she wanted me to stop wanting to hold her hand when I was ready, but realized I'd never be ready.