[growlithing]

Sorry for another thread. I just want someone to help me figure out what is going on.

I really REALLY want to hear my T tell me that she loves me. I've been trying to get her to say it for a few days now by manipulating the conversation without directly saying it. We've already talked about my desire for her tell me she cares about me so this situation really isn't that different. It's just a different word. She won't say it and if I tell her how I am feeling, every answer she could conceivably give would make me really upset.

Why do I feel this need to hear her say she loves me? I wouldn't believe her if she did anyway. Or I would believe her, but I'd need her to reconfirm that she still loves me everyday because love was such a conditional thing for me growing up. The word means nothing to me and yet it means everything.

She has said "people here love you had you need to learn to feel that love without questioning it" but it isn't nearly the same as if she said that she loves me directly.

How do I get over this?

[ScarletPimpernel]

You're braver than I am. I too would love to hear my T say she loves me. The only thing I've asked from her is if she "likes" me...and it was a fight for that (and I almost lost!).

I know I will never hear those words from my T. Instead, I look for words/actions that display it for me. It's not easy, but it's enough for now. For example: my T went out of her way to research websites for me, she has called up people to try to find me a group, she is currently working on getting my insurance to allow me to see her long-term, and she allows me to e-mail her once a week. Other things: she lowers her voice when I'm upset, she is always saying she's proud of me when I do even the littlest of things, and one time she even shut off the lights to help calm me down. All these things show me that she doesn't just "like" me; she actually "cares". And she has (accidentally) told me that she "loves talking to me". I know she is going out of her way to help me, so I try to hold onto those things to reassure me instead of forcing her to say something she doesn't want to say.

[rainbow8]

My T wouldn't use the word "love" either. She will say she cares deeply for me, but says the word "love" is reserved for close family. She would never say the words "I love you" to me.

Since you have a history of not getting the love you wanted and needed, and not trusting it if you did, it makes sense that you want your T to tell you those words, and tell you often. Will she tell you that she cares deeply for you? If she reassures you as often as you ask, will that help you to accept it as truth? Also, actions speak louder than words. Do her actions show that she loves you?

I understand wanting to hear "those words" though. I would keep talking about it with her, and maybe something she says will enable you to accept the words that she DOES freely give you.

[2or3things]

I totally hate this answer--I have a similar issue with my T that persists--but I think you probably can't "get over it" until you feel yourself to be lovable and "enough" on your own. That's a feeling, I think, that usually comes from experiencing a parent's unconditional love. When we don't experience it when we're kids we're always, always looking for it elsewhere. (OK...at least that's how it's been for me.)

The problem is that the time for that has passed and no one else can give that to us now...we have to learn to do it for ourselves. That's the part I hate. It seems unfair and impossible. But that's just how it is, I think.

[JustForNow!]

I feel the same way about my T. She has said she cares about me very much, but I, like you, don't trust it will last and I need to hear it all the time. As I didn't get that from my parents either, I'm looking to fill that hole. And I agree with 2or3things, that we have to give it to ourselves.

That is the hardest, sucky-est thing to do. Now, on top of wanting to hear she cares about me often, I'm also jealous of others in her life and am having to deal with that stuff.

I would say that it could be helpful to keep this line of communication open with her, as it will bring up other stuff for you to work on. Because, as my T says, it's always about something else and it's always about me.

I now believe she could say it everyday and I'd still be questioning it. We've been working on how this relates to my childhood and what I never got that was healthy and what I always got that was unhealthy.

I guess what I'm saying is to stick with the feeling and use it to work on the stuff it brings up for you. I know it's hard and all you want to hear is, "I love you", but be prepared to not hear it and get that love from yourself. Because we didn't get it from the persons who we should have gotten it from....just like 2or3things said.

Good thoughts to you!!

[stopdog]

I think some parts of life concern the ability to have desires and learn that the desire is not the same as a need. That does not mean that one denigrates or denies the desire, but rather that one looks at and accepts the feelings around it without going to the extent of acting out on them.
I personally would react very badly to a therapist telling me they loved me. It would be awful for me. I don't do all that well when the woman says she likes me. That is way too close for me.

[Daeva]

Originally Posted by 2or3things

I totally hate this answer--I have a similar issue with my T that persists--but I think you probably can't "get over it" until you feel yourself to be lovable and "enough" on your own. That's a feeling, I think, that usually comes from experiencing a parent's unconditional love. When we don't experience it when we're kids we're always, always looking for it elsewhere. (OK...at least that's how it's been for me.)

The problem is that the time for that has passed and no one else can give that to us now...we have to learn to do it for ourselves. That's the part I hate. It seems unfair and impossible. But that's just how it is, I think.

This has helped me immensely thank you for this

[tinyrabbit]

Originally Posted by growlithing

I wouldn't believe her if she did anyway. Or I would believe her, but I'd need her to reconfirm that she still loves me everyday because love was such a conditional thing for me growing up.

And that's why it wouldn't ultimately help if she said it. It would simply create a need for a quick fix that only lasts so long, then you need another fix. It would make love and caring conditional with her, too.

Originally Posted by growlithing

She has said "people here love you had you need to learn to feel that love without questioning it" but it isn't nearly the same as if she said that she loves me directly.

No, it's not the same. It's better. Being told you are loved doesn't necessarily mean anything, for the reasons listed above. SHOWING you love and caring is another thing altogether. She wants you to observe the ways in which she shows you she cares rather than expecting her to tell you.

Think about it. If she shows you she cares, you don't need her to tell you - you can see it for yourself. If she doesn't show you she cares, why would you believe it if she SAID she did?

She's encouraging you to trust your own opinions and recognise caring instead of relying on someone else to tell you whether or not to feel cared for.

[unaluna]

Can I address the original thread question? Why do some of us need or really want to hear "those three little words" from our ts? I think, to remove the words' power over us. Because they have been withheld from us for too long. We went thru a phase where we did say it. I would feel moved during a session to say it because I was so glad for his help; I felt very connected. He would usually say thank you, then a session or so later, we would switch roles. But other times we have talked about it, and it feels scary to me. But we have been together 7 years - your relationship, while intensive, will be short-lived. So maybe you need it to get the most out of this connection. Maybe the workers there need to not say it for their own self-protection, to save themselves from too many ups and downs as people come in and leave? Idk.

[Aloneandafraid]

Oh this is really getting to me! I want to hear /feel this so badly yet I know I need to find a way to do this for myself. I think this is the crux of my issues. Thank you so much for this thread. This is such a big issue for me. I hate feeling so needy.

[feralkittymom]

To be honest, the words have never held much appeal for me. I think when someone says, "I love you" it says far more about the speaker's experience than that of the spoken to. If my T had ever said that, I would have been very sad because it would show that he was invested in his feeling rather than mine.

On the other hand, I really enjoy the feeling of love for someone else and saying it. Having that feeling gives me pleasure, and being able to say it gives me a sense of empowerment. I enjoy experiencing myself as someone who feels loving. It's entirely separate from the feeling of being loved. It took a while, but once I could feel just how my T cared about me by his entire presence week in and week out, it was like a warmth in my center that never left. He's felt about me as a daughter (not the same as feeling about me as his daughter) and has enjoyed experiencing himself in a paternal way. It pleases me that he can have that feeling, and it pleases me to be the object of that feeling. But neither of these feelings has anything to do with hearing the words, "I love you."

So maybe part of thinking we need to hear the words is cultural and we have embued the words with expectations of feelings that may not be emotionally true.

[growlithing]

Originally Posted by tinyrabbit

And that's why it wouldn't ultimately help if she said it. It would simply create a need for a quick fix that only lasts so long, then you need another fix. It would make love and caring conditional with her, too.


No, it's not the same. It's better. Being told you are loved doesn't necessarily mean anything, for the reasons listed above. SHOWING you love and caring is another thing altogether. She wants you to observe the ways in which she shows you she cares rather than expecting her to tell you.

Think about it. If she shows you she cares, you don't need her to tell you - you can see it for yourself. If she doesn't show you she cares, why would you believe it if she SAID she did?

She's encouraging you to trust your own opinions and recognise caring instead of relying on someone else to tell you whether or not to feel cared for.

It's because I want something to hold on to at the end of the day when I re-analyze everything. I can feel the love in the moment that she looks at me, but the minute she leaves and I want to feel loved again, I start to think that maybe I didn't read her right and the love I felt was a false production of my own mind and she doesn't actually care. If she said "I love you", then I at least have that to use as evidence that she does even if the words are near meaningless to me. That and physical touch. She pats me on the back and I feel cared for for hours. Easy things I can quickly identify as evidence.

[ScarletPimpernel]

If you truly care about your T, you're gonna have to respect her boundaries in the end. Even though I too would want to hear those words, I know it wouldn't actually help me, and I know that it would be disrespectful to try to force her to do it.

Something she might do though: ask her for a tangible object; like a small stuff animal. If she does, the gesture itself is a reminder that she cares and it's something you physically can touch to comfort yourself when you miss her. I have asked for stuffed animals from everyone from my fiance, to therapists, to school counselors, etc. Anyone important in my life, I ask. I even this week asked my own T for one in an e-mail...scared to death of tomorrow's session!

[feralkittymom]

Originally Posted by growlithing

It's because I want something to hold on to at the end of the day when I re-analyze everything. I can feel the love in the moment that she looks at me, but the minute she leaves and I want to feel loved again, I start to think that maybe I didn't read her right and the love I felt was a false production of my own mind and she doesn't actually care. If she said "I love you", then I at least have that to use as evidence that she does even if the words are near meaningless to me. That and physical touch. She pats me on the back and I feel cared for for hours. Easy things I can quickly identify as evidence.

I think what you're expressing is about object constancy. Hearing the words, in that case, won't be any more tangible than your memory of her looking at you. You would probably analyse them in a way that would discredit the power you think they'd have. The fact that you can experience and trust her caring during sessions is fantastic. I think Scarlet's idea is a really good one: parents give their children transitional objects, especially when they go to sleep, for a similar reason--it addresses that empty insecurity/fear. Building object constancy is a process that waxes and wanes --try to be patient with yourself.

[growlithing]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

I think what you're expressing is about object constancy. Hearing the words, in that case, won't be any more tangible than your memory of her looking at you. You would probably analyse them in a way that would discredit the power you think they'd have. The fact that you can experience and trust her caring during sessions is fantastic. I think Scarlet's idea is a really good one: parents give their children transitional objects, especially when they go to sleep, for a similar reason--it addresses that empty insecurity/fear. Building object constancy is a process that waxes and wanes --try to be patient with yourself.

Whenever I think of stuffed animals, I almost start to cry. I had this dream over the summer where I was hugging a stuffed animal and saying "I love you so much" and I woke up crying. I have no idea why there is so much emotion behind stuffed animals in the dream and in the real world. Maybe it's because it wasn't a transitional object for me. They were replacement objects because my parents never comforted me. But regardless of that, I'd feel awkward asking her for one and the fact I asked might make me feel guilty if she complies.

[feralkittymom]

Why guilty? I think she'd probably see it as a good way you're trying to take care of yourself. Do you think you're undeserving?

I had the same issue with my mother. But sometimes I'd get up in the middle of the night and get one of my stuffed animals anyway. If I didn't wake up early enough and put it back before she woke me in the morning, she'd go ballistic when she saw it, but the comfort was worth the punishment. They were my friends, so I understand the emotional tie. I think it's why I take care of the ferals now, even though it costs so much, and I don't tame them as much as I could because I'm only here temporarily.

[growlithing]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

Why guilty? I think she'd probably see it as a good way you're trying to take care of yourself. Do you think you're undeserving?

I had the same issue with my mother. But sometimes I'd get up in the middle of the night and get one of my stuffed animals anyway. If I didn't wake up early enough and put it back before she woke me in the morning, she'd go ballistic when she saw it, but the comfort was worth the punishment. They were my friends, so I understand the emotional tie. I think it's why I take care of the ferals now, even though it costs so much, and I don't tame them as much as I could because I'm only here temporarily.

My mom would guilt me whenever I got a stuffed animal because I had so many. I just loved having them to hold at night. If T gave me one, I'd probably feel guilty again like I am too old to have this, she spend money on me that I didn't deserve, I am ungrateful for feeling guilty etc

She wouldn't let you keep them in your room? That's odd...

[feralkittymom]

Originally Posted by growlithing

My mom would guilt me whenever I got a stuffed animal because I had so many. I just loved having them to hold at night. If T gave me one, I'd probably feel guilty again like I am too old to have this, she spend money on me that I didn't deserve, I am ungrateful for feeling guilty etc

She wouldn't let you keep them in your room? That's odd...

I could keep them in my room, but not have one in bed. I know now it was some warped projection of her own issues, but at the time it just felt hurtful.

What if you were to give her a stuffed animal to keep for you for a time, and then give it back to you? Would that avoid the guilt, but accomplish a similar purpose? You could buy one on-line if there's no opportunity to go out shopping.

[Bill3]

If T gave me one, I'd probably feel guilty again like I am too old to have this, she spend money on me that I didn't deserve, I am ungrateful for feeling guilty etc

Are you saying that, because of the expected feelings of guilt, you don't want her to give you one?

[growlithing]

Originally Posted by Bill3

Are you saying that, because of the expected feelings of guilt, you don't want her to give you one?

Yes and no. I don't want to ask for one.

I'd also just feel super immature if I got one because my mom would always tell me that I need to grow up and not keep wanting stuffed animals. She told me that other people would laugh at me if they knew I had one.

So it's like I do want one. I have a specific one offline that I've been tempted to order for a while now but I haven't because I keep telling myself I need to be an adult and it is a waste of money.

[Littlemeinside]

Growlighting...you´re an inpatient who gets to spend hours a day with a T and are attending a group too. Why don´t you try to make the best of it, by talking to the professionals about these issues instead? This is a peer support forum, but I am sure your treatment providers would be interested in these thoughts too. How can they possible evaluate/help you if you get the answers and tons of open questions that may affect you one way or the other in here. I am NOT saying not to post. I am just not sure it´s that healthy in the long run, while recieving intensive inpatient treatment. Theres a difference between asking for support and trying to get help in here.

[tinyrabbit]

Originally Posted by growlithing

It's because I want something to hold on to at the end of the day when I re-analyze everything. I can feel the love in the moment that she looks at me, but the minute she leaves and I want to feel loved again, I start to think that maybe I didn't read her right and the love I felt was a false production of my own mind and she doesn't actually care. If she said "I love you", then I at least have that to use as evidence that she does even if the words are near meaningless to me. That and physical touch. She pats me on the back and I feel cared for for hours. Easy things I can quickly identify as evidence.

That makes perfect sense. I think you're asking the right question. I'm just not entirely convinced words are the answer. I think you would interpret words in exactly the same way - think of them as a false production of your own mind and suchlike.

She pats you on the back and you feel cared for. That's great, but it's made me wonder something: do you want her to say she cares for you to give you permission to interpret her caring as caring? Are you looking for external validation of your experiences of her caring for you as you don't trust yourself?

I feel sad that you've been so discouraged from having stuffed animals. I'm 32 and I still have some. One of them lives in my living room, by the sofa, and nobody has ever laughed at it. I don't think anyone would laugh at you. I'm sorry your mother said that. She was wrong.

[growlithing]

Originally Posted by tinyrabbit

That makes perfect sense. I think you're asking the right question. I'm just not entirely convinced words are the answer. I think you would interpret words in exactly the same way - think of them as a false production of your own mind and suchlike.

She pats you on the back and you feel cared for. That's great, but it's made me wonder something: do you want her to say she cares for you to give you permission to interpret her caring as caring? Are you looking for external validation of your experiences of her caring for you as you don't trust yourself?

I feel sad that you've been so discouraged from having stuffed animals. I'm 32 and I still have some. One of them lives in my living room, by the sofa, and nobody has ever laughed at it. I don't think anyone would laugh at you. I'm sorry your mother said that. She was wrong.

I know I'd interpret words the same way. I do actually. I just end up continually reasking. I do think I'm asking for permission to interpret what I see as love. Yes, external validation so I can confirm what I believe to be true.

Yeah. Maybe I'll get over it because I do really want something to hold

[Bill3]

I'd also just feel super immature if I got one because my mom would always tell me that I need to grow up and not keep wanting stuffed animals. She told me that other people would laugh at me if they knew I had one.

So it's like I do want one. I have a specific one offline that I've been tempted to order for a while now but I haven't because I keep telling myself I need to be an adult and it is a waste of money.

When bad things happen to children, they tend to assume that the same things will happen again as adults. And thus they tend to give the same responses as adults that they gave as children--even though the situation has changed.

So with regard to stuffed animals, you were guilted and shamed by your mother about them. But now you have the freedom to make your own choice. You have the freedom to have a stuffed animal.

I think that tinyrabbit spoke for the vast majority here, if not for all of us, in saying that it is okay to have stuffed animals. I have a 22-year-old son who has a stuffed animal at college with him. I am much much older than that and I have stuffed pandas, a stuffed dog, plus a stuffed platypus and a stuffed axolotl that a friend of mine made for me . My daughter has probably 15 stuffed animals at college with her. Her friends have stuffed animals.

I think that it is okay to want one, and I also see getting a stuffed animal as a step towards freeing yourself internally from your mother's mistaken and destructive opinions.

It is okay to want a stuffed animal. It is okay to be yourself.

[ScarletPimpernel]

BTW, I said ask for a tangible object "like" a stuff animal. The object doesn't have to be soft (though if it's soft it will allow you to feel more connected to it), and it can be something else like a scarf. I still have a scarf one of my friends gave me and I love wearing it in cold weather because it reminds me of her.