Intense session about my boundary issues

Thanks, skysblue.
Apparently my T doesn't think it's normal, no matter what I think! Yes, I think I'd push the boundaries more if I could. I have looked at her family's FB pages more even though I wasn't going to do it. I would probably drive by her house more if I wasn't terrified she'd see me and if it weren't in an area that's not too well traveled. I feel it's more than curiosity, though I certainly AM curious. It's impossible for me to refrain once I get the idea into my head. I will still google her because there could be something new. It bothers me that I do this, and I feel like it's an obsession. Just like today is supposedly not a day I said I'd be posting on here, but I can't stop. I have to force myself to get off instead of checking this thread every minute. I'm giving myself this day because it's almost a holiday and because I want/need the support. Still.....it's a compulsion...I feel it....

I don't know much about disorders but could this be OCD?

Confession time. I used to walk past boys' houses that I had crushes on in grade school. They didnt even live in my neighborhood; they lived on the west side of the school, I lived on the east side. Not that I ever saw them and who knows if they ever saw me. But I think I just wanted to be seen, looking back on it. Needed to connect. I tell my t I feel like that joke about dogs chasing cars - they don't know what they would do if they ever caught one, but they are still driven to chase them. I didn't know what I was longing for. The past few years with t, I feel like I have been redoing my toddler years. He's been getting me ready to go out and meet the world again, the right way this time. With confidence in myself, not desperately seeking something.

My first DBT leader thought I had OCD, and that's why she suggested seeing a pdoc for meds. The pdoc said I'd need LOTS of zoloft to treat it, but I couldn't stand the side effects at the lowest dose, so there's NO WAY I will try any meds again. They aren't for me. I know there are other meds, but I just don't want to go there. The pdoc had me on valium and ambien to counteract the zoloft. No way! I get shaky from tylenol!

Some of my Ts think I have OCD, and I know I have some of the symptoms. I don't check things in my house, though. I just obsess about people, mostly Ts.

Aw, hankster. You sound like me when I had my crushes on boys in elementary school too. I have a diary where I wrote what I "found out" about this boy in 4th grade, and how I discovered where he lived. I never talked to him, though. In 1st grade, I always put my jacket next to the jacket of the boy I liked (I still remember it was a blue shiny Superman jacket with a red letter S on it!) but I never said a word to him! I wanted to be connected but didn't know how, and was too shy to do it anyway.

I'm glad you're making such great progress with your T. I think you'll be fine "in the world", as you put it.

PERFECT

[QUOTE=skysblue;3423504]
I'm trying to imagine what it would be like if I were a T and a client drove by my house. Maybe it would depend on which client it is. I'm pretty sure that if I knew the address of where my T lives, I would not be able to resist checking it out. As I ask myself, why?, I'm not quite sure - maybe to feel more connected?
QUOTE]

As a professor, I would compare it to one of my students driving by house. Even if it was a student I liked, that kind of a boundary crossing would scare me. If an uninvited person (especially a student) drove by my house, I would feel very violated and spied on and it would make me feel unsafe in my own home. Even if I didn't think the student meant to scare me or would ever harm me, it would make me feel unsafe because I wouldn't be able to feel "at ease" in my home. I would be wondering if they might look in my window, watch me walk my dog, watch which visitors I had over, etc. It would impact my quality of life and my ability to just relax when I walked in the door. It would feel like I was being watched, like in a Hitchcock movie (think "Rear Window"). Maybe is that is how the OP's T felt?

I agree that the CURIOSITY is totally ordinary, but actually following through and driving by T's house is not ordinary. It is definitely a boundary crossing because you are actually physically inserting yourself into your T's life and private space, without her permission. Even if you aren't literally on her property, you are basically trespassing by being there. She doesn't want you (or any client, or any uninvited person) to see her walk her dog, have friends or lovers over, take out her trash, go for a jog, water her garden, etc. Those are private things and we have the right to do them without someone spying on us. How would you feel if someone was driving by your house and watching you? It would probably make you feel uneasy too, right? That's why it's a boundary crossing; because it violates T's right to the private enjoyment of her house. After being at work all day, we want to be able to come home, put our guard down, turn our public self off, and just relax. We can't do that if we think someone might be watching.

[quote=scorpiosis37;3424140]I actually have had a student follow me home. Keep in mind, I teach grade 4, and I'm a short walk from school. I live in an apartment, not a house. A few of the kids have figured out where I lived by watching me go into my building and then following me into it - and they've let others know.

I even had one of them knock on my door in the summer with his younger brother. I let him know that if he did it again, I would in fact report him for trespassing because he should not have been in the building (the doors are often left propped open which bothers me for exactly this reason).

That was in July. I haven't felt properly comfortable in my apartment since. I'm on the ground floor. With large windows. At least one of the kids who knows where my flat is? Who was never one of my students? I know that he's already involved with gangs here.

So does that make me worry? A little bit, yes. My flat is the easiest one to break into due to it's location. And I'm a single female. And I am decently well paid as I'm a teacher. Somewhat a prime target for different gang initiations here.

As soon as I can I am getting money saved to try and get a house. Because I don't even like to have my windows open because I don't know which kids will be outside the window (a lot of them play nearby), but I also always keep the curtains drawn because I don't want MORE of them to know where I live.

So yeah... major privacy violation that can affect the other person's life.

[QUOTE=scorpiosis37;3424140]scorpio, I think you are right, and that's why your post is starting to make me cry. I actually did spy on my first T: I accidentally discovered I could see in her window from my doctor's office across the street, so I took binoculars and went there on purpose to watch her. I wasn't her client at that time. I just wanted to see her because I missed her so much, but I knew it was very wrong to do so I wrote her a letter telling her about it. She sent me a certified letter telling me it was critical that I get back into therapy again, which I did. With someone else, not her.

My brother spied on me in the shower and I didn't know it until 7 years later, but I still felt violated and exposed when I found out. My T thinks I do it because he did it, which strikes me as very strange. If there were a way to spy on my T without her knowing it, like I did with my first T, I'm not sure if I would do it or not. I don't trust myself, in other words.

I feel icky now. Bad. Not from your post, Scorpio, but from thinking about my behavior. I'm glad I have my T to help me do something about this problem.

I think this part is really telling because it sounds like your understanding of boundaries is that they're only for people we don't like. Like it's not okay to set limits with the people we're close to. Like it's okay for your brother to spy on you because he's your brother.

But having boundaries doesn't mean you don't like or don't want another person. It's just letting them know what you're okay with and what you're not. For eg I have a friend who hates people tasting things off his plate, even his young children. He loves them, snuggles them and generally wants them near but he feels strongly that his plate is his. I, on the other hand think that intimacy is all about taking bites off people's plates or stealing their fries. But I really don't like my kids following me into the bathroom (they're little). My partner doesn't care about if they tag along into the bathroom. All these positions are legitimate. None of the boundaries is about not liking the other, just recognizing what makes you uncomfortable and asking others to respect that.

Your T is telling you google is okay with her, going by her house isn't. It's not about not liking you, she's just saying "hey, this is MY plate!"

Thank you, FJ. You explained it very well!! My T still likes me, but she doesn't like me going past her home. I have to think about that for a while, but it's helpful. I do NOT think what my brother did was all right, though. Definitely not. I love him, but I know he has untreated, major psychological problems. He didn't even feel bad about planning this major engineering feat to enable him to see from his room into the bathroom. He was proud of himself!

I have a friend who works at a psych unit. The staff are told not to reveal their surname, for reasons like these. I think it´s a major boundary crossing, let alone telling her about it. Personally I would freak out by the idea of having a person drive by my house, who I knew were obsessed with me. It´s an invasion of privacy and...what´s next. ( You did sort of tell her at some point you wanted to break the door open to her bedroom (can´t recall the phrasing) while she was still married.

I guess I have the same question for you. You seem to have strong feelings this - stronger than the T involved had.

[QUOTE=A Red Panda;3424162]Yeah - my cousin said he caught kids getting ready to egg his fiancee's house - they both taught at the same high school. OTOH, my 3rd grade teacher lived around the block from me (more than 50 years ago) and I used to ride my bike and stop and talk to her - but my mother told me to stop bothering her. I wonder now who was more bothered.

rain, i think it's great your T is so understanding and doesn't shame you because that really isn't going to help. i do think you have a hard time being honest about your emotions and it is really tripping you up everywhere. whether it is being in love with your T, being sexually attracted to her (for whatever reason) or admitting that it is inappropriate to drive by her house you resist admitting these things and try to downplay or normalize them at times. it is okay to admit your feelings whether they are appropriate or not. denying them won't make them go away but rather empower them so it's best to just be honest about them and work thru them.

as for your crossing her boundaries this is about *her* first and foremost. it is hurtful to others when you do it and you seem somewhat unaware of that. instead, it seems like you're playing a bit of whack-a-mole with your behaviors. you say you won't email so you post more on PC, you say you won't post more on PC so you google, you say you won't look her family up on FB so you drive by. something like that. your behaviors seem to just shift rather than get resolved. the only way to resolve them is to stop doing these things and feel the incredibly uncomfortable feelings that will come up. you can do it but it will be painful. in order to stop these behaviors you have to deal with your honest emotions and stop resisting them.

while you may be copying your brother's behavior i think you don't like that your T has boundaries because she is not in your real life and so you cross them in an effort to bridge that gap. i really think it's important for you to get some understanding why people are separate persons from you. can you talk to your T about why you don't understand boundaries? it seems like a very important discussion to have.

Rain, you struggle with this even IRL so therapy is a great place to work it through. Thankfully you have a T who understands, some Ts could panic about client finding out their location and driving by. Honestly, for me even googling s.o. I have some RS with is not OK- if it's a professional RS I'd do that before I see him/her to decide whether or not I'd see him/her. I just don't like to know more than the person decided to share. See, everyone's boundaries are a bit different.
As much as I don't understand this behaviour I think shaming won't help (never does with me). Being curious (love that phrase) might help you understand and stop this.

BTW I don't think T (not) offering lower fee says something about the RS (I.e. whether he likes the client or not)

I think I now understand what you meant-sorry that I misunderstood. Thank you for the explanation.

Thank you, blur. It seems like others on here have downplayed the googling, where as I think it's a problem. But you're right. I have all of these feelings that I can't seem to control, and they're hard to admit because I'm ashamed of them. My T and I talked about boundaries some time ago, and I did an exercise with a rope to set my own boundaries. I will talk about it with her some more. I also think you're right that I don't like T having boundaries because she's not in my real life. I hate that fact more than anything. She says that it won't stop until we work through it. No, I won't go past her house again, but the urge is there, and will be until I somehow get past it. Not doing it doesn't make the feelings go away. I think T and I will work on this until I quit. I couldn't sleep last night thinking about my deductible in January, and there's not enough time. I'm not in such a good place right now.

Thanks, anilam. I agree about the fee. She told me that she has to pay her bills! Yeah, I'm thankful for my T being curious and understanding. She's the greatest!

(((((((((((( rainbow ))))))))))))

the exercise you did is good and helps you understand you get to have boundaries. you having boundaries, and a sense of individuation, can help you feel empowered to do the things you desire to do in your life like the traveling and even selling your artwork if that is a desire of yours. i think for those of us who had enmeshed parents it can be hard to have a sense of our own power and feel like we can accomplish our goals. we unfortunately can end up feeling quite helpless when we were not allowed boundaries as children. this article on individuation is excellent and i think both boundaries and individuation are good things to become fluent in. it's all about balance: we are separate, individuated people but still have relationship as long as both parties respect each others' boundaries.

the other half of this is understanding why it is good for others to have boundaries. respecting other's boundaries is for the other person's comfort and safety and so they can live their lives without bothersome interference from us. you still can have relationships with people while they have their boundaries, just as you have your boundaries. respecting your T's boundaries will not feel good right now and it won't make these feelings go away. in fact the opposite will happen until the issue is worked through. that is why it is difficult to not do the behaviors you are struggling with--because it brings up uncomfortable and painful feelings that need to be felt and expressed in healthy ways. this isn't about your T but your primary family relationships and grieving the losses of your past. you can do this rain. there is no time like the present. happy thanksgiving!

Thank you for this last part. Yes. Not googling my T when I want to, when I have the urge, is terrible. It hurts because I want to be close to her. I want to be with her but I know that's transference. It's an addiction. I always said SHE was the addiction. I told her what we're doing now in therapy is like Yalom's "Staring at the Sun". I'm facing this pain--not of abuse, but of losing something--someone I want. If T represents my mother and me the infant, I'm losing that bond. Yet I know T will always be in my heart. I just don't know why I have this pain about love, wanting it so badly. I'm posting too much but Tuesday seems like an eternity away, and what if T gets sick or dies, or cancels? I KNOW I'm going through something now--grief or something.

yes. i felt quite smothered by my mom--she still does it and i'm in my 40s!--and controlled by my dad. my inclination is to move away from people when they do that. i really liked that article on individuation and what it says about both pursuing your own interests and knowing & feeling your emotions. i know sometimes my mom would "correct" my emotions and tell me that i didn't feel a certain way when i had expressed that i did. just lately i've been paying a lot more attention to how i honestly feel and it is quite interesting. i still may do the people pleasing thing but at least i'm more aware of what i really feel. i can also feel a lot of helplessness about pursuing my goals because i wasn't really encouraged to have goals separate from what my parents wanted for me. if i lived in NYC where that T in the article lives i'd probably go see her.

it sounds like you have various losses to grieve. the infant stuff which i would guess is what you experienced with being in an incubator. probably also that your mom didn't allow you to individuate as much as you needed or wanted to.

and the loss of your mom when she died.

rain, it's good to just feel those losses and get it out rather than constantly trying to avoid it and get stuck in obsessing about your T. you have a great T and she will always care for you. you are stronger than you think and can walk through these wounds.