What is your relational pattern with your therapist?

What is your pattern in therapy?

In object relations, your personality develops as a result of the interaction between your born temperament and your primary caregivers (overall environment plays a role too). It forms the template of the relational pattern that plays out in your significant relationships throughout life.

Therapy makes this pattern very noticeable, so it can seem like an exaggerated version of it--but that space allows it to be examined. In psychodynamic/analytic therapy, the therapist not playing into this 'pattern' is a primary catalyst of change. That's one of the main reasons why it is so uncomfortable (i.e., panic attacks) and people get worse before getting better.

I somehow came across an article that describes me to a 'T'. There is a ton of material of children of narcissistic parents, but I don't think I've ever come across one simple article that has a small summary that sounds just like my pattern. It even has that damn introject/split off aggression and anger part...

Narcissistic parent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

During my last therapy, I think my 'true feelings' were drawn out from being in the attachment relationship. It was very rocky--I had panic attacks and anxiety, as well as other kinds of emotional dysregulation.

Even after 4 years of therapy now, I still have much of this pattern to work through.

The source cited from the paragraph is here: Selfishness and Narcissism in Family Relationships - article by Dr. Lynne Namka

Might be worth checking out. I'll have to take a look when I have more time.

Thank you so much for sharing, Skies - this is amazing as this also describes me to a 'T'! Isn't it strange how when you read something like this, certain behaviours suddenly make sense (how we relate to various situations). Thank you. I think I need to bring this up with T maybe - instead of just going around in circles. She says I didn't receive enough support when growing up and that now I am in need of support but she withdraws constantly saying she acknowledges that I want more but she can't give it. This is so painful. Thanks again for sharing. Xx

I don't know what my pattern is, but I think I get all this... I think this happened to me as a kid, and I even thought it was a normal part of molding a person. Prior to my therapist I would have argued what did it matter what I really wanted, we cant all be/ or get what we want. My entire childhood was a performance trying to get love and approval, and what made me depressed is it was a failure performance that didn't work in the end, not even a little bit. I've finally grasped that much. Sometimes I still don't know who the real me is, or if there even is such a thing. I know I'm mostly after love and approval, but I care a little less today than I did when I started. If it's a good sign to be full of anxiety and emotional discord then I'm on a good track in therapy, LOL. It has not been comfortable. Thanks for posting this!

(((Aloneandafraid))) Yes, it is amazing to have those sudden realizations. Sometimes I think we're lucky to have this pattern. If you look at the wiki article, one of the other patterns that develops is that the child turns out just like the parent. The temperament in which we're born is really just luck. So there is a positive component to this. I'm glad you are able to bring this up to your therapist soon and hope you let us know how it works out.

(((Petra5ed))) Yes, that's the thing--it doesn't work in the end, and causes us more pain. Thank you for sharing. There is a real you. And it will feel beautiful when you begin to experience it, although you probably have already caught glimpses of it here and there I'm guessing.

It was one of Hazel Girl's threads that got me thinking of this. She wrote about how her therapist explained, among other things, how we go into 'hiding'. That made me think of Winnocott's false self.

Then I started to get really angry because it feels like my parents robbed me of a large part of my life. Because I was so dissociated from my feelings, so out of touch with my authentic self, that's it's like I was depersonalized for most of my life.

And you can't fully give and receive love when your authentic emotions, self, is in hiding. That makes me even more angry. I missed out on so much. No wonder I constantly fear getting old. Because my life always seemed close to being over before it really even began.

Hugs to everyone.

I grew up with one extremely narcissistic/sociopathic (one of the two) and abusive parent, and one extremely codependent and selfish parent. I learned to ignore my own needs because they were a burden and were too much for others to handle. I learned that my sensitivity was wrong and that I shouldn't feel the way I do. And I learned that my problems weren't as big and bad as everyone else, so I shouldn't complain. It leaves me with a lot of guilt and shame, along with a lot of fear that people (especially my T) will get tired of me and my feelings and problems and will abandon and reject me. I still don't ask for help much at all because I was always told how inconvenient and difficult I was when I asked for help. I developed a negative introject that really tears me apart when I am faced with a situation where I have to ask for something or when I want to talk to someone about my problems. And I repressed all my emotions, which are just now starting to come out. I am terribly afraid of people, afraid they will randomly change their opinions and views of me and will start to hate me. I don't see others as consistent and reliable, and so I don't form strong relationships because people change often in my mind. It doesn't matter how much they have cared about me in the past, their opinion can change immediately, and every good thing in the past goes away, leaving me as "bad" in their eyes (this is what I perceive happens and what I react to, not necessarily what actually happens from their perspective). I'm currently dealing with this with a friend, where even though we have been great friends for years, I feel like because I didn't just shrug my shoulders and ignore something she did to me, and she got frustrated because of it, she now hates me. She has said that things are fine, but in my mind, they're not and she now wants nothing to do with me. The past 6.5 years mean nothing, and my experiences tell me that I am now "bad" to her and she dislikes me. It makes me want to run away from her and have nothing to do with her. And I am worried because I am supposed to talk to her tomorrow.

So, to answer your question, I have a very avoidant attachment with people at first. But once they get past that and I start to admit to feeling close to them, that's when it really becomes chaotic. I move from a distant and avoidant attachment to a disorganized and unpredictable attachment. I rapidly go from "I don't need you" to "please don't leave" back to "I don't want anything to do with you" back to "I am scared you hate me". It is chaotic, and overwhelming.

THIS!! I sorry this happened to you, but you just perfectly articulated something I have been struggling to explain.

I have realised that what has happened in my relationship with T mirrors what happened in my only other relationship where I actually let someone 'in' - my relationship with H.
I was very insecure about my relationship with T, then we had a big rupture and after we repaired he rupture I realised that I wanted him to see the worst side of me almost like as a test to see if he would still be there for me (not consciously). If he hadn't been there for me I could have justified my own low self worth and feel rejection, but as he was there for me I now feel able to trust him and feel much more secure and less anxious about the relationship. I did the exact same thing in the first year of my relationship with H.
I am now reaching phase 2 of the way relationships play out for me: I am now starting to put T first and not advocate for myself. To feel he is such a great guy for not abandoning me that I shouldn't put my c**p on him. The good news is I am conscious of this stuff playing out now so hopefully I can change the pattern.

First I want to say how moving it is to read this thread, with all these difficult yet articulate situations and emotions. If anyone is still doubting that they are being authentic, it seems that that doubt can be put away.

My parents were both narcissistic, but my mother was almost absent--so cold and distant--that that is really more the issue for me. I did however develop a false self to compensate and used it for a very long time until it just was not working and was almost forced to dismantle everything and try to rebuild. Hard but really good work to do.

For stuff on narcissism, Kohut is probably someone to look into. He started self psychology, a whole school of psychoanalysis based on the results. He saw at the root of narcissism a deep wound that made the person need and demand constant mirroring to feel okay. And he thought some narcissism was healthy, so kinda like Winnicott's true self.

For a short clear account of how some of this stuff happens, Miller's Drama of a Gifted Child is a good read.

In terms of that awful feeling that your childhood was ripped away from you, that it's so unfair, that you missed out on so much, Judith Herman's Trauma and Recovery has a very good account of those feelings. I can't find my copy to quote, but it is something like this: that people have to not only mourn the childhood they lost, but more the childhood that was never theirs to have in the first place. That is the hard part. And can stir up even despairing feelings while confronting and mourning that. Being really gentle with yourself and remaining connected with people is crucial to getting through.

My relationship with my therapists has changed over time. I started out as overly reliant on intellect and completely undeveloped emotionally. I didn't even know how to recognize let alone name my emotions. I also had an insecure attachment that was probably avoidant.

My progress accelerated when I changed therapists to someone who was a Relational analyst, so very much attuned and aware of how the interactions between us would have effects and possibly would make old stuff come out as well as allow me to develop new ways of relating. And it has worked. My attachment is not insecure now. I like having emotions and don't value intellect as much. I'm more ready to speak up, ask for what I want. I don't avoid conflict and am able to work something out, feel some skills have developed there. But this was all a lot of work. More than 5 years twice a week, with even more years before that with another therapist. And I still am working on emotional regulation, self-care, and authenticity.

Every time I've read this title I read rational not relational pattern!

I though can't respond to that one...I have no patterns in therapy that are in close to being rational!

I don't know if I have a relational pattern with the therapist. I am not especially desiring of her approval and I do not fret if she is away. I don't try to please the woman at all. I do want her to stay back.
I did not spend my childhood trying to placate or excessively please my parents either - in fact it was a major complaint of my mother's that I did not seem to care if she approved or not. I sort of accepted I was odd but unwilling to change to not be or to fit in. The exchange for that was that I knew I was responsible for not fitting in and that she was unsettled (ashamed, embarrassed or something) by the fact I was not what she wanted. I seemed to know I could be myself and keep my soul or be how she wanted me to be and lose it. And I preferred my soul to being approved of. The language I am using is a bit over the top - and certainly overstating the situation, I just can't think of more descriptive but less excitable language at the moment.
She was glad I am intelligent, a lawyer, could take care of myself, but she would have been so much happier with me if I was more like my sibling (married, children, the correct neighborhood, right car, the right sort of house with the right sort of decor and so on - not all material things but the package of caring about being usual or correct and not odd like me) or more like she was. She was always surprised that I had friends and lovers. She never thought I was nice enough or something enough that others would like me. She did like my friends and most of my lovers and they liked her too. She was very likable (seriously - people loved her from friends she had from grade school until she died to grocery store clerks who came to her funeral and told me how delightful she was) which is another thing that makes it so odd that I rejected her.

I suppose if there is a relational pattern with the therapist, it is like I relate to other strangers.
I got a bit off the topic there.

So, to answer your question, I have a very avoidant attachment with people at first. But once they get past that and I start to admit to feeling close to them, that's when it really becomes chaotic. I move from a distant and avoidant attachment to a disorganized and unpredictable attachment. I rapidly go from "I don't need you" to "please don't leave" back to "I don't want anything to do with you" back to "I am scared you hate me". It is chaotic, and overwhelming.[/QUOTE]

This last part is how I feel with my T

Your mom sounds an awful lot like mine Stopdog. Very likable, a wonderful person by all accounts, but could not understand or accept that her own child could be different from her.
Unlike you, I did spend my childhood trying to please her - take care of her really, as she's very needy but doesn't like to believe that she is.

FWIW, Stopdog, it doesn't seem odd to me at all that you 'rejected' her. Though I would disagree that it was you who did the rejecting. As a 'pleaser' child I was constantly jumping through my mother's hoops, so much so that I didn't even have the energy for pretty much anything else. I've been an anxious wreck, a mouse child, for as long as I can remember. It's only recently I'm starting to believe that there is not, actually, something terribly wrong with me.
I was home about a month ago and I had the opportunity to see some of her BS from a new perspective (not to mention hear from all and sundry about how wonderful she is. Again. They seem to think I'm lucky to have her for a mother. Poor clueless sods...). A couple of examples: 'that child can't be trusted to get out of bed in the morning', 'you're not the easiest person to get along with JS', 'you never listen to the other person's side JS', 'well, you know JS, she never calls anyone'. On and on and on. All with the smile of the long-suffering mother on her face. And I used to try so hard. Well, no more. I could never be good enough for her anyway.

The therapist one time told me she was not as kind to me anymore as she used to be. And I was surprised. I experience her as somewhat closer to kind now than I did when she thought she was being that way. I don't particularly find her kind now, just less not kind as before. The therapist seemed surprised I had not found her to be kind.

My mother used to tell me how hard she tried and how it was never enough for me or how I was never appreciative of her efforts. But to me her efforts were awful - I did not want what she was offering. I even, one time in an extremely exasperated state, told her (which was a bad plan) just to stop - it was not making her happy and it was not worth it. I did not want it. It was a bad plan to say that aloud -but I did mean it. I felt more burdened by her misguided efforts.

never mind. too much of a tangent.

It sounds like your mom was trying to give you what she wanted and expecting you to appreciate it. Instead of being your mirror, like any good-enough parent does instinctively, she was expecting you to be hers. And you told her to take a hike. Good for you Stopdog.

Stopdog,

I think your mother is totally projecting about the rejecting thing.

It sounds like your mother saw you as an extension of herself. People who recognize others as autonomous individuals do not get upset or disapprove of someone not being/doing things they prefer. Think about it this way--if someone sees another as part of oneself, then if you don't do what that person likes/believes in/etc., then it is rejecting them because you are them.

Maybe this doesn't apply to your mother, but people who don't see people as separate often have one issue that really stands out--needing other people to reflect back the image of themselves that they need to believe to compensate for feeling completely worthless and inadequate. And that image of themselves is distorted. When someone does not reflect that image back to them, they often perceive that as rejecting and can go into rages, feel attacked and respond to it as if they were being attacked, and many other problematic issues and behaviors. Sometimes when they lose that defense, they have a nervous breakdown (tangent-this is one reason why i don't confront my mother about my childhood.)

People who have this trait can surround themselves with co-dependent people who support that image they need to believe. To illustrate--an extreme version of this is a so-called guru who can have a following of individuals who are attracted to this deceivingly strong person who 'offers' what they don't have, which can often be hope, answers, or whatever and then leading them to believe that they can get it too. But that hope, answers, whatever is usually grandiose and unrealistic, but sometimes more subtle and not too far gone that others catch on...It can become cult-like.

When you talk about feeling the need to keep your soul--that fits right into people who don't see others as separate people. The concept of sense of self is the psychological equivalent to soul in the context you described. And co-dependents to exactly that--give up their sense of self because that's what their parents taught them is necessary to survive or to get even just crumbs of love or caretaking they need. And those who are narcissistic use the others sense of self, controlling it and taking it as their own. I have antennas for this--when i'm around people who do this or attempt to do this, i can sometimes literally feel them sort of 'taking over' my sense of self and trying to make me become part of them. Wish i could have done that as a child.

Very interesting how you knew what was going on and didn't fall prey to that. But i still think she rejected you first.

Really sad to think about how this plays out for everyone involved, including the person who develops this kind of heavy reality-distorting defense.

I totally LOVE my therapist!!!! She is so loving and giving and understanding and kind and encouraging and empowering. She is incredibly insightful and intuitive and observant and she always hugs me when I arrive and she hugs me when I leave my appt. She ALWAYS tells me upon the beginning of our session that she is so happy to see me and she also tells me that she is very glad that I am there and she appreciates and values me. She is constantly uplifting me and giving me positive reinforcement. Such as telling me I'm beautiful or that she loves my hair or that I do a great job of waxing my eyebrows. She always comments on my outfits and shoes or jewelry if I am doing well enough to put some effort in getting dressed for the appt. but she also never judges me or acts disgusted when I arrive unshowered with greasy hair wearing my nightgown that I've been in for months! At those times, she still tells me that I am a beautiful woman. She is always commending me on my intelligence and my intuitiveness and my discernment and my insight-fulness and my observations on society in general....she says I have a gift of clarity and being able to sum up our society's declining values, morals, accountability and it's focus on physical traits instead of what a person is made of......she tells me I'm perceptive and she always is smiling at me and sometimes sheds a tear with me when she hears of something very traumatic I've just shared with her. She tells me she loves my type of sense of humor and she likes to ask me my opinion on current political events or current news stories. When I call her and say I'm too depressed to come to session, she doesn't get upset with me at all or try to talk me out of it......she just says "I'll tell you what. I'll just be sitting here in my office for your hour and if you show up, that would be great.....but if you find that you cannot make it, that is ok, too." We both have acknowledged to each other that if we were in a different set of circumstances, that we would both like to be good friends. She has dared to show me her human side and she has shared with me some very sensitive and private painful moments that she has endured. For me, that helps me to not be ashamed or afraid to tell her of some horrific ordeal I've been through. I have been shown that she is no stranger to pain, grief, loss, and lifes' ups and downs, therefore making her very human and a safe person to share my normally shameful memories with. She is very classy, dignified, extremely kind and generous, thoughtful, loving, supportive, encouraging and loving. I feel very blessed for God having brought her into my life. She is an amazing human being and one that I am proud to say that I have had the great honor or knowing and sharing my life with.

Skies, thank you for this thread and the quote. I've also had to deal with parents who acted narcissistic towards me at times. I'm quite familiar with feelings of guilt and shame, with judgments (that I later on internalized and no longer needed parents for), with repressing my aggression and sexual urges and disowning them, with becoming so distant from myself that I felt I did not know who I was at all. I too am familiar with crushing panic attacks when I have sometimes gotten a glimpse of my true self coming out in therapy or in the most unexpected times. They were almost horrifying. Like ten panic attacks in one.
I'm sorry, I digress. My relationship with my various therapists has been similar to my relationship with my parents, as stated above. I've felt judged. I've felt ashamed and sometimes shamed. I've felt guilty, for being there, for taking their time, for having problems that are not big enough. When I've felt judged by a therapist, I've often taken that judgment (many times it was not meant as a judgment but suggestion to improve some situation) and multiplied it and applied it to myself. It's given me a sense of control and protection. This is like having parents who push you and since you don't feel like you stand up to them, you gain control of situation by punching yourself in the stomach! It's physically more painful but emotionally less so. Now you have the power. You're the one kicking yourself. Alas, this is not the solution. The real work is facing the emotional pain.
If I have to choose the biggest pattern about the way I related to my last therapist, the most common thread is my relationship with previous therapists, I'd say it's been about seeking approval. They're my parents once again, and once again, I try so hard at gaining their approval, fearful of their judgment, and preoccupied with their views. I make for a terrible client, sometimes I really feel sorry for my therapists. I make them into the worst side of my parents and constantly testing them and they have to keep playing this game with me.

Reminds of my mother getting me toys she liked, not toys I liked or wanted.

Yeah, my mother would make me her favorite cake for my birthday every year and seem shocked that I didn't like it. Every ****ing year she would exclaim, "But it's my favorite!" Yes, YOUR favorite, not MINE. We went to a park ONCE during my childhood, and my dad wanted to climb this observation tower and I wanted to go with him. My mother told me I was afraid of heights. I told her I wasn't, and she seemed incredulous. "But I'M afraid of heights." At six, I could not understand why her being afraid of heights somehow meant that I was also afraid of heights. She never saw me as another human.