[IndestructibleGirl]

I went to the session. In my head, I was strong. What motivated me to go was feeling irritated at my own spinelessness if I just shrank away and didn't go back. I wanted to confront her, lay out all my complaints on the table, and re-assert myself. Say that it's not acceptable, I am going, I am not abusive and actually come to think of it - you are being rather abusive yourself.

Cowardice has always been something I can't stand to feel in myself, if I think I'm copping out of something I make myself do it, even if it's not wise. And I should have know by now. But I honestly felt so tough. I was wearing clothes that make me feel very much like myself (fur bolero, good boots) and a good spritz of perfume that makes me feel good, and had blasted loads of music that makes me feel upbeat. I thought I had it.

I just turned into a mouse in the room, feeling like I was being watched by an indifferent and bored cat, suddenly all the fight went out of me I was talking and talking, trying to keep the cat happy, and confused because some of the things she said do make sense. My behaviour elicits this response in others who are very close, ie family, partners, so what am I doing to get this response??? She has a point there? She said, you basically told me I'm sh#t, and I won't take that after all I've done, I don't take abuse from anyone.

Now I am more confused, I don't feel safe at all, but there is information there that is useful. I don't know if you have seen the old movie Mrs Frisby & the Rats of Nimh, but there is a bit where the field mouse goes to get advice from the owl who is terrifying. The owl gives some advice that points Mrs Frisby in the direction of how to save her son's life, but at the same time she is terrified he might eat her. That's where I am.

I hate feeling weak, and I hate feeling like she has a point because it makes my points less solid. I don't hate her, but interestingly I don't feel love towards her either (good) because I think I'm too busy being afraid and mistrustful (bad, cowardly).

She is the first person that I have had this pattern with, where I have not lost my temper and torn strips off them. I didn't think I was going in there to do that today- I really wanted to stay in control, and be assertive, but not lash out and spit out what I think very savagely. I went too far the other way, and dissolved. Somebody hand me a grip.

Aaargh, she's so manipulative. I hope that was the termination session, because it just seems like she's turning the knife and preying on your vulnerabilities. I wonder what sense of self-satisfaction she gets from this. She is seriously beyond her abilities professionally.
You are well within your rights to report, if and when you feel able.

[JustShakey]

I commented in your other thread that your situation sounded a lot like mine... Now it REALLY sounds like mine.
My previous T attacked me in the same way yours did, though she did it in person. I begged her not to terminate me in almost exactly the same way you did - complete knee jerk reaction and I was utterly thrown. She threw me out of session and I still have no idea exactly why, though she later admitted countertransference.
I went to my next sessions determined to confront her and figure out what happened and what I did, but like you I melted in the room and lost my nerve.
It's scary some of the things she is saying to you - it's almost word-for-word what previous T told me - rude, disrespectful, not going to take abuse from me etc. not to mention that I felt like the whole thing came out of left-field and I had no idea what was going on.
I have no idea what to tell you. The 'repair' in my case was a band-aid at best. I hid behind idealization and ET for the remainder of my time with her. In retrospect I feel like I hid myself and my upset and did my best to keep her happy. She ended up terminating me because she didn't feel that she was able to help me.
I would say turn around and run as fast as you can, but I know how much doing that will hurt...

ETA: This one really hit a nerve. I'm shaking like a leaf

[IndestructibleGirl]

Thank you both for your replies.

Echoes, I am seriously out of my depth now - I sometimes believe she is being manipulative and then I sometimes believe it's me being manipulative. I feel like I have genuinely lost the ability to work out what is real in this interaction. My head is spinning. One minute I think you are right, it is purely twisting the knife where it hurts most, and in the next beat I think with utter clarity that she is right. And that it hurts so much because she is right and I just have to face up to it. That all the other stuff is a defense on my part against facing stuff. But then I think of some of the mad stuff she's done/ said and I spin round again and...well, you get the picture.

Just Shakey - I am so sorry for triggering awful memories in you. Truly I am. I don't think I would feel hurt if I walked away, what bothers me most is I can't work out if I'm doing that to avoid confronting my own awful behaviour. That's where it's different from your case - I have a pattern of pushing people (unwittingly, but happens nonetheless) and they pull away from me then. I am not innocent here. I demanded and demanded and demanded and could not accept the new boundary structure.

[Middlemarcher]

Being afraid and mistrustful is not bad or cowardly. Feelings of fear are there to alert us to possible danger. When someone has a history of trauma, these feelings can pop up when they're not really warranted. Also, traumatized people sometimes learn to disregard or second-guess these alarm bells, leading themselves to (or leaving themselves in) dangerous situations. From my perspective, you are right to feel mistrustful of your T, and the fear makes sense as a basic instinct.

I like Pete Walker's idea of the "4 Fs" as trauma-related responses: fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. It sounds like you expected to be in fight mode, but shifted into fawn mode. Maybe this will be helpful:
Pete Walker, M.A. Psychotherapy

I will reiterate that I think your therapist has too many of her own issues, and that she is not the right T for you. If I went in and railed at my T, I doubt that she would paraphrase it as me "telling her that she's ****." And if she did, she'd simply follow up by telling me that I must be very angry, and encourage me to tell her more. This is the reason I can trust her and bring anger into my sessions-- and that took a long time of consistent responses from her before I could do that. So I suggest again that a consistent T who knows how not to take things personally is what would benefit you.

[Middlemarcher]

Originally Posted by IndestructibleGirl

I don't think I would feel hurt if I walked away, what bothers me most is I can't work out if I'm doing that to avoid confronting my own awful behaviour. That's where it's different from your case - I have a pattern of pushing people (unwittingly, but happens nonetheless) and they pull away from me then. I am not innocent here. I demanded and demanded and demanded and could not accept the new boundary structure.

This is all the more reason why you would benefit from seeing another T. A good T will not respond to this kind of pushing by lashing out, sulking, terminating you by text and then reversing it, punishing you with snide assignments, etc. I do not believe that you can safely and constructively confront your own patterns with this T.

[Asiablue]

She actually used information you gave her in trust and used it against you! Let's get something straight here, YOU were not abusive to her! You also did NOT tell her she was s hit. If she took that from your messages then that's her stuff.

Ugh, she makes me so mad i could just kick her in the shins and run away!!!

Okay, let's say for a moment that you demand, demand and demand in your relationships--family relationships, close personal relationships and it's played out in your therapeutic relationships. Yes, that is something you need to know about yourself and work on . . . But working on it means working on it with a well-trained, well boundaried, consistent and unflappable therapist. AND that is definitely not this current therapist!

She is poorly trained, all over the place with setting boundaries, shaming, easily influenced by the emotional upheaval you experience in the therapeutic setting and just plain lacking in self-awareness about her own influence/impact on her clients in the consulting room. And to make matters worse, when she screws up, she doesn't owe up to her part in the problem; instead, she piles the blame on her client and makes the client feel like crap! Believe me, I truly believe that it is important that we all hear about the impact our behavior has on our therapists. This is part of our journey and the way we begin to make changes to improve relationships. But the time to do that exploration is not directly after the therapist makes a MAJOR therapeutic mistake .. . something your therapist did when she reacted in anger to your anger.

If she was a well trained therapist she would have spent this session with you hearing what you had to say, owing up to her mistake and then exploring with you in depth where you wanted to go from here. It would have even been okay if she did the first two things with you and then admitted honestly and genuinely that she was in over her head professionally and would do whatever she could to help you connect with a new therapist and would support you the best she could until that connection was made. She's the professional, IG, not you. You're the client with a lot of learning and growing that needs to happen, but that learning and growing isn't going to happen with the professional coldly pointing out how YOUR behavior impacts on her and CAUSES her to act unprofessionally. Sure your behavior might trigger countertransference in a therapist, but a well trained therapist takes personal note of that, doesn't act on it and takes it to their next peer supervision group or supervisor. Your therapist has done NONE of those things. This is on her, IG, not you.

Gotta say again, I sure hope you're not going to continue going to this woman and paying her your hard earned money and offering up your psyche for her to rip to shreds.

[IndestructibleGirl]

But, I feel like I owe her for everything - because she gave unprofessional good stuff, I need to accept the unprofessional bad stuff. Rough with the smooth?

My overwhelming sense is that EVERYTHING is too personal. But that's how relationships are in the real world, right? So her viewpoint is valid? If I hurt her, and she gets her claws out, well that's what happens in real life?

She did say she's approaching her limits, because she doesn't take abuse off anyone. She said she was saying it not as a threat but that nobody should have to take it.

[IndestructibleGirl]

She said we need to focus on my part in the interactions we were discussing, not the other people's.

She said I come in and ask questions about her (as in her feelings towards me) and that takes up all the space. This is true. I feel like I need to keep checking where we are.

[Bill3]

because she gave unprofessional good stuff, I need to accept the unprofessional bad stuff.

No, you don't.

No matter how good a T may have been on some topics, one never has to accept unprofessional bad stuff from them.

[IndestructibleGirl]

Originally Posted by Bill3

No, you don't.

No matter how good a T may have been on some topics, one never has to accept unprofessional bad stuff from them.

Yes, of course. But is give and take not how it goes? And I took too much, or something, so now should cut her some slack.

If I was strong and sensible enough to be normal, I should be able to handle and negotiate this. So I feel I should force myself to do...I dunno something that makes this not a disaster.

[Ididitmyway]

You don't owe her anything and you don't owe anyone anything.

While it might be true that you have issues you need to work with, it's best to do so with someone professional enough not to throw fits like this therapist did. You don't have to accept an unprofessional and hurtful behavior from the therapist just because she did something helpful in the past. That's not how things work in "real life".

In real life you don't need to accept mistreatment from anyone, and in your relationship with this woman you were clearly mistreated because she abused her more powerful position in the relationship.

To end the relationship the way she did might have been appropriate in the different kind of relationship but not in this one.

She is a professional, and even if you were truly abusive to her overall, as she claims, she should have referred you to a new therapist in a professional manner and not like she did.

I seems to me that you are beating the dead horse by not accepting that she can be of no help to you from this point on.

[NowhereUSA]

Here's the run down - it doesn't matter what she gave you. She is the professional. That means that by giving you that stuff *she* was wrong and by using it against you she is still wrong. It's called grooming. You feel indebted even though factually speaking, she's the one with authority. It's her job to keep boundaries. Period. End of story.

Screw a termination session. Cancel. Delete her phone numbers. Find someone stable who can be a real therapist and let that woman go off the rails not with you.

[IndestructibleGirl]

I feel like if I disagree with her opinions, thoughts, everything now - if I disagree with her definition of abuse - then that invalidates all the validation she previously gave me. All the validating of all the hurt my family situation inadvertantly caused me, which yes, we agreed included emotional abuse.

Except if I don't agree now, then it feels that wasn't true. And if I do agree with her, it's still not true because if I agree then I am the abusive one. I literally can't win, either I am an abusive person, or I was making it up and she was colluding. Unless there's some middle ground, but I can't seem to find it.

I am not usually so borderline in terms of seeing things in black and white - normally I am pretty accepting of the faults and failing in everyone, without it making them a 'bad' person, except when it comes to myself, where I tip very easily into feeling like a bad person.

At the moment though if feels like me and my ex T are on a see saw and we keep changing positions every couple of seconds where one is pretty bad and one is pretty good. Emotionally I am so disorientated.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by IndestructibleGirl

She said we need to focus on my part in the interactions we were discussing, not the other people's.

She said I come in and ask questions about her (as in her feelings towards me) and that takes up all the space. This is true. I feel like I need to keep checking where we are.

The solution to this "problem" is very simple. She should have said just once that she would not answer personal questions because this is not what therapy hour is for. That's all. No further discussion. Then it would be up to you to take it or leave it. It's not your fault that she didn't do what she should've done.

[NowhereUSA]

The easiest way to find out is to ditch her and find a new T. But hanging out with her isn't really going to help this black and white thinking. I don't think you're reasoning through this accurately, but the best way to check the facts is to chat with someone else. Preferably someone stable.

[JustShakey]

(((IG))) Stop blaming yourself.
Yes, there are two people in the relationship and yes, you are not innocent. BUT, nobody is innocent in life and this is supposed to be therapeutic relationship. That means it is her responsibility, as the therapist, to accept you where you are at. She needs to accept you anger and validate it and help you understand it so you can change your patterns and grow. Instead she is acting more like a classic codependent: how can you do this to me after all I have done for you?!

Therapy is supposed to be about examining our unhealthy patterns with an accepting, nonjudgemental other. She is essentially telling you that she doesn't care how you do it but you better cop on and grow up already because SHE doesn't want to deal with your problems anymore. That is so not what a therapist is supposed to do.

This has just far too many parallels with not only my situation with my previous T, but also with the stbx. (Reenactment much?) It was always my fault and I had to take all the blame. Don't kid yourself. This is emotional abuse. Run away.


Eta: please don't feel bad about triggering me. It's all in the processing. And anyway, it's my stuff and I chose to wade into the thread. If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen and all that

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Yes, you may have issues to work through regarding your interactions with people close to you. That may be completely accurate on her part, but you DO NOT have to stay with her to work on those issues. In fact, I don't think it is at all possible to improve in those areas while working with this therapist because she is so unboundaried, so inconsistent, and so mixed up in her own issues and lack of professionalism.

Find a therapist who can work with you, accepting that you have those problems and willing to help you work through them constructively. Find a therapist with consistent boundaries, a clear focus on you as the client, and the skills needed to work with your particular issues. This therapist is ADDING to your problems; that is a clear sign that you need to find another therapist.

[IndestructibleGirl]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

The solution to this "problem" is very simple. She should have said just once that she would not answer personal questions because this is not what therapy hour is for. That's all. No further discussion. Then it would be up to you to take it or leave it. It's not your fault that she didn't do what she should've done.

She has never said she will never answer personal questions (I don't tend to ask obscure personal questions, but I feel so insecure with her I asked regularly if her feelings had changed towards me, cause it's all so different now). But she has repeatedly said why she needs to keep the new boundaries of much less contact, no weekend contact, fewer sessions, etc.

I kept feeling abandoned by it and kept bringing it up.

If only I hadn't felt so hurt and in pain, and hadn't brought it up...

[sanguine007]

Pay attention to the feeling you are having of not knowing which end is up.

It sounds like gaslighting.

Def from Wiki: "Gaslighting or gas-lighting is a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted/spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception and sanity."

[missbella]

IG, the game of therapy is set up as an uneven field. The client has all the problems and questions, has most of the exposure. The therapist (often) plays the role of expert, makes the rules, holds the answers, decrees the interpretations, defines the narrative. What is represented as like intimacy is extremely time limited and very engineered.

No wonder therapists can be intimidating.

In truth, with some exceptions like the classroom, the workplace and the legal system, no adult has any authority or supremacy over another adult. No one is a Life Expert. No one has the answers or determines the narrative in an interpersonal scenario.

I know some very strong competent adults who relate to their therapists like whimpering puppies.

From everything you've told this board, getting what you want from this woman, getting her to admit her errors is an impossible mission. You tried and tried. As many have told you, that only leaves you taking care of yourself and cutting the cord.

My therapists were extremely arrogant, righteous characters. Even when the psychologist saw my complaint, in writing, several years later, he insisted on his blamelessness.

That kind of relationship certainly is "unfair." It leaves the client to unravel the knot on atop of the original issues that prompted getting treatment.

The good news: I learned more from disengaging from bad therapy than from ethical therapy. You talk about your strength and surviving, and which gives me the clear sense you'll emerge here.

[JustShakey]

Originally Posted by IndestructibleGirl

If only I hadn't felt so hurt and in pain, and hadn't brought it up...

You have the right to your feelings. And in therapy you are supposed to talk about how you feel, including how the therapist's actions make you feel. You are not there to make the T feel good about herself.

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[IndestructibleGirl]

Originally Posted by missbella

IG, the game of therapy is set up as an uneven field. The client has all the problems and questions, has most of the exposure. The therapist (often) plays the role of expert, makes the rules, holds the answers, decrees the interpretations, defines the narrative. What is represented as like intimacy is extremely time limited and very engineered.

No wonder therapists can be intimidating.

In truth, with some exceptions like the classroom, the workplace and the legal system, no adult has any authority or supremacy over another adult. No one is a Life Expert. No one has the answers or determines the narrative in an interpersonal scenario.

I know some very strong competent adults who relate to their therapists like whimpering puppies.

From everything you've told this board, getting what you want from this woman, getting her to admit her errors is an impossible mission. You tried and tried. As many have told you, that only leaves you taking care of yourself and cutting the cord.

My therapists were extremely arrogant, righteous characters. Even when the psychologist saw my complaint, in writing, several years later, he insisted on his blamelessness.

That kind of relationship certainly is "unfair." It leaves the client to unravel the knot on atop of the original issues that prompted getting treatment.

The good news: I learned more from disengaging from bad therapy than from ethical therapy. You talk about your strength and surviving, and which gives me the clear sense you'll emerge here.

Much as I hate to admit it - I am starting to feel very subhuman. Ashamed. Old flawed thinking creeping back in the edges of my mind.

She knows in my history I have a parent who threatened to take love away because I was too vile.

Everyone has limits. Everyone.

It's certainly turning into what you have describe above now, where all the problems are mine.

I definitely didn't ever see her as a life expert, at all. She was way too frank about her own crazy life for me to think her some kind of deity.

I don't feel upset as such, just so badly confused and terrified of cutting off my nose to spite my face.

As I've just said in a text to a friend, apart from my late mother, nobody else ever seemed to love me with such fierce passion - and I managed to ruin that! The feelings of guilt and regret! Jeez, they are powerful.

If I elicit this reaction in my parent, and then in a therapist who I do honestly feel loved me at one stage?...this is going round and round in my head.

I know perfectly well it's not remotely love now, as friend has pointed out very wisely. However, unconditional love is for your children, not for any adult to another. That's always been my belief. So I polluted it, and now I'm suffering.

Other friend says the key problem is it wasn't her place to love me that way (a personal way, like unconsummated lovers, or my archetypal sister, or plain old friendship, depending on day/ mood/ moon phase) in the first place.

[missbella]

IG, I felt extremely ashamed, very unlovable, very guilty when my therapy fell apart. I mean, therapists are supposed to support everyone, so I must be terrible to have such a bad ending, right? Errr. no.

Therapy-think deeply implanted many ideas --therapy is a laboratory for life, and all that. Errr. no, again. Therapy is a relationship like no other, it's unequal, it's paid, it's limited, it's engineered.

As I mentioned, my mind was far ahead of my emotions. I came to understand how vain and self-righteous my therapists were--completely unreliable in defining the relationship and or me. They felt like gods. I defined myself through their lens. In truth, this was a huge distortion because the breakdown of the relationship, the fact that I didn't play their role threatened THEM and they struck. (These were co-therapists.)

Ultimately, I had to unravel how unimportant these people were in my life. They were dreadful at their jobs. They were people who went to school and got degrees. The experience was like leaving a cult. I was utterly brainwashed.

The women I met through TELL: Therapy Exploitation Link Line also found the experience destabilizing, intimidating and sabotaging. The good news is I found rewards for coming out the other side and eventually discarding my therapists' distortions.