Group therapy, UGH

Warning: Lots of whining in this post.

Ugh, I can't get anywhere with group therapy. Every time I'm there I feel less and less like participating. I barely say anything now. When I think about how I should try to work on being more open -- I end up just thinking about quitting. I've told my therapist that I was thinking about quitting (I have him for individual therapy as well as group), but he wants me to stay (of course). And I do trust him, but I kind of think this is a lost cause. I'm incapable of doing well at something I don't want to do. Even when I try to psych myself up for it it's useless. I go there and there's nothing I want to say or share with anyone. I listen to them interact, but there's nothing I want to add and I mostly find them annoying (the same discussions apparently continue for all time in group therapy). I originally wanted to feel closer to people and group therapy was recommended for that. But now I don't even think I want that. I kind of think now that I want to be more alone and just sort of take a break from people. I hate to disappoint my own therapist by quitting, but I can't see how useful it is for me to show up and not participate. (I realize the answer is to show up AND participate, but I can't seem to bring myself to do it.)

I guess I've gotten myself into a bind here. I don't even like individual therapy as much because I feel like I waste time talking about the group. To me, that's like talking about work. I could gripe about work, but it's not a real issue for me. It's more like a distraction from real issues. Make sense?

I don't know what's ailing me lately. It's too bad I can't participate. I go back tomorrow. Maybe I'll have better luck, but I kind of doubt it. Something about having an audience to every interaction makes me feel really disingenuous. When I'm interacting one-on-one I'm so different from this. So I'm either not participating or I'm feeling like a fake. Both seem kind of useless.

UGH. Okay this is a lot of whining and venting, but I had to put it out there somewhere. :-) Hope you guys can tolerate it.

Maybe things will magically get better. Perhaps if I could get out of this funk I've been in. Blah.

Sidony

Hey (((((((((((sidony))))))))))))) good for you for hanging in there as long as you have. Group therapy is hard and confusing and I was going through your post nodding my head since I agreed so much with it!

I've now finished my second group (I've been in two, each 9 weeks long, meeting once a week). Its taken me this long to get into the "swing of things".

I went into group the second time because I felt I didn't connect well with people and that a lot of the time I hate to ask for help, and that I felt I deliberately go out of my way to sabotage relationships and felt my relationships were shallow. So I went back to group.

I got more out of it the second time around, and I still haven't figured out "what" that was yet!

Maybe it's just the people there that you don't "click" with but maybe it's also the fact that you're seeing your T in two different environments and that's a bit weird? (It happened to me, that's why I bring it up ... group is run by my T)

I hope it goes well tomorrow.

I apologize for being all over the place.

Thanks canders

Interesting that the groups you were in were set for 9 weeks. This group has no end-date, and some members have been in it for years (I mean, like as long as 5 years). I'd like it better if everyone were new and starting at the same time. I'd rather learn WITH the other members instead of FROM them.

Yeah I have trouble feeling like I'm close to people at all. I always feel like everyone's at arm's length. And I really did want to work on that. But then I got kind of depressed about other things that were going on in my life, and I kind of lost interest and now I feel like it's hard to get back out of this. I don't want to quit the group without telling people good-bye, but I don't feel like talking about leaving either. So I'm just kind of procrastinating. I wish I could just decide to either quit and say good-bye or somehow get all motivated and figure out how to participate.

Yeah it's weird to see my therapist in 2 different environments like this. I don't really like him watching me interact with other people -- I feel horribly self-conscious about it. And he gives me some suggestions on what I should try in group, and I invariably ignore all those suggestions. I don't know why.

No I don't really "click" with anyone there although I do think they're mostly nice people. I guess I just feel out of place because I don't really want to be there. I can make myself go, but I can't make myself WANT to be there. I wish I could. I wonder if I'm just depressed. Or maybe I'm annoyed that I've given my therapist more power over me by letting him see me in situations I don't handle all that well. And I don't like this new power position. I don't know. But every time I start feeling a little positive and thinking of things I might try -- I immediately go back to thinking I should leave. I don't know what my deal is lately.

Sidony

Wow, no end date? I can imagine that would change my perspective on things ... for me it always seems that I get used to people and then the group is up! Have you talked to your T about how you feel about the group? For some people + groups don't go well together.

You have such a strength to analyze your situation, it is very much impressive. I hope you're able to come to some sort of decision regarding group.

Take care of yourself.

I have been in your situation. My personal therapist was also the leader of my group. The group was horrible—I just did not click with the people. She pressured me to stay in the group—hang in there and try to make it work. It was complicated by the fact that she charged money for individual therapy and group therapy…I don’t know how much of a role that played in the mix. To be honest, she was not really that good of a group moderator. Our individual sessions became focused on the group and not really me and my individual issues. Finally, I put my foot down and quit the group.

When it came right down to it, I determined she was not the right therapist for me. Not only did we not “click” she was just plain bad at being a therapist. Even after I discovered she was “bad” I had a tough time terminating the relationship—I felt sorry for her and I did not want to hurt her feelings.

Some of my best learning has come from group work—when you are in the right group, things just happen. I love group therapy. It is up to you as to whether or not you stay in the group—your T. should support you in whatever you decide. If the group is distracting you from making progress in your individual therapy, then it really is not good for you.

I just typed a long response and then it disappeared. So, first I have to do this:

OK, now I feel better.

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I originally wanted to feel closer to people and group therapy was recommended for that.

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You also mentioned that the people in the group annoy you. Why should you be expected to share and engage with people who you don't like? Like any relationship, there are people you will connect with, people that you won't-- so why should you feel forced to connect with people you don't like? UNLESS (and there's always an unless!) your relational patterns in group are emulating your relational patterns outside of group. Do you become annoyed with people who you should be otherwise engaging with outside of group? I know I do. And I'm not even in group, lol. At this point, I would say screw actually sharing and talking with the people in the group, and put the focus on what your patterns are as far as relating (or not relating) to the others. Basically what I'm trying to say is to maybe put the focus on the process of your interactions (or non-interactions!) in the group, rather than what you should say or add within the group.

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I guess I've gotten myself into a bind here. I don't even like individual therapy as much because I feel like I waste time talking about the group. To me, that's like talking about work. I could gripe about work, but it's not a real issue for me. It's more like a distraction from real issues. Make sense?

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How does the conversation about group go with your individual therapist?

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I go back tomorrow.

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What are you gonna wear? Haha....

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Maybe things will magically get better.

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Do you want to borrow my wand?

I'm glad to see your post. I was wondering where my other dork-half on the forum was.

Hope you're feeling better.

I was in a group for about 5 years and really bloomed as a result of it. I was rather needy at the time and the group actually allowed me to see how other's worlds were and actually find that I was not too unusual despite my prior observations. I found a way to come out of my shell and grow. It was not easy and sometimes talking was embarrasing but I had to spill it somewhere.

I wonder if ... someone else said...I think right above me... it is the content of the group or the people in the group? Maybe a different group would do you better?

I also went to ACOA meetings and a woman's group elsewhere... yes I was VERY needy. I found that the ACOA meetings particularly all have a different personality. Some worked. Some did not.

Anyhow back to the long term group... I think that along with finding similarities we also addressed how relationships within the group developed in the group. There were things that really irritated us about each other as well as things that bonded. Both of those experiences allowed investigation and exploration to find out what set of the feelings and emotiions. It allowed a safe environment to confront these issues, investigate and work through them. New opportunities were prevalent and continually showed themselves.

To start the group I met with the leader for several meetings first for her to get to know us and then I was introduced to the meeting. That was indeed not easy... as you have said. And the others did say it was hard to welcome new folks in... so that was difficult but things settled in and flourished.

I am not too sure how I would feel about having the group leader as my therapist. Seems like too many eggs in the basket or something. I liked having a separate therapist and I could bring in group issues if I needed or wanted to ... but do not recall doing that alot.

So what does not feel right about the place, people, experience? Good luck tomorrow. Tell them all what you think.... might as well. whatever... shake things up a bit ... for you and/or them. Fish or cut bait.... or at least question the bait.

Hey thanks all (and yup I'm back pinksoil -- been thinking about your other thread in fact and will respond to it soon).

DePressMe: Unlike in your case, I have no doubts about my individual therapist. He's perfect for me and he's really good at what he does. He's probably even right that I should be in group. And regarding money: He has several times now offered not to bill me for group (just for individual). Last time I talked about quitting he asked what if it was just the time and would I come if he didn't bill me and all I had to invest was time. So far I haven't let him do that (though I might if things become rough financially for me). But at the moment, it's not the finances -- it's just that I don't feel like doing it. He thinks I'll learn something valuable about conflict. Because (surprise!) I avoid all conflict in the group. Maybe he has some delusion that I will suddenly up &amp; decide to participate in whatever conflict is going on. Never going to happen. I don't do conflict. If the group members start arguing some issue, I just say nothing. Heck, I doubt I could get interested enough to join in their battles anyway.

Yes, that's when I get annoyed. When there's some argument. They'll just argue some subject to death, and I'm thinking what's the point. People are different and they can't change each other. Why burn up all that energy.

Pinksoil: Yeah I do notice my interactions mimic some of the ones outside of group. The big difference here is I'm not making polite small-talk. I'm just shutting up. I was thinking earlier that it's difficult for me to break off relationships. I mean, even if I've only been dating some dude for a few weeks I have a hard time saying hey this isn't working. And so I can't bring up that I want to quit here. And I may just be full of crap -- it might be the whole power-balance thing is bugging the hell out of me and so I shift that onto wanting to quit. And the whole announcing-you're-going-to-quit thing is what everybody does when they want attention. I hate that. I'd rather just quietly walk out.

BLAH. I think the whole thing is just messing with my head and after a while that makes me angry. And then I'm horribly ornery about everything. My therapist asked me something about couldn't I learn to do some type of interaction (I forget exactly what we were talking about but it was something with the group), and I said no I don't think I can learn, I think that's beyond me, etc. Of course I don't think that! This whole thing is just annoying!!!

GRRRRR.

Sidony

P.S. Pinksoil: Yes I've already picked out what I'm going to wear tomorrow. haha

Something about this group is making you uncomfortable.

I'd make a list and break it down. For example, is it just the members of the group or are you uncomfortable sharing in front of your therapist who is also the group leader? I too think those should be separate.

I see nothing wrong with you hanging back and not saying much right now. That's how I am. I kind of assess a situation for awhile and the people around me. I don't let anyone in right away.

I wouldn't push yourself to open up but I would try and figure out everything that is good and bad for you so far with the group therapy. If your 'bad' list is higher you might want to find a different group that talks about the same issues. Then keep your T for your individual sessions.

Recently, I've checked out on meetups.com they have groups that talk about depression and other conditions. There is also daily strength. It's an on-line forum like this one.

I would think group therapy is hard and if you're not getting anything out of it, put your energy into a different one...just a suggestion.

Hey SecretGarden!

I missed your response before somehow. Wow, that's a lot of time in group!

Yeah, it's weird having the therapist as the group leader, but I doubt seriously I would ever have joined a group otherwise. I mean, I'm just really shy. But since I trust him and he bugged me to try it I finally did. And part of my problem is social anxiety. I get so nervous about talking to people that nothing comes into my head. I don't imagine that it would work much better with any other group, unless maybe we were all brand-new (that somehow sounds freeing to me).

I don't know what it is that bugs me. They all seem really touchy to me. Like if I said "hello" in the wrong tone half the room might take offense or something. I don't know. The least little thing has them talking about jealousy and anger and all that. And I guess that's the POINT. That's also the reason I'm uncomfortable -- it takes a lot to provoke me emotionally and so I don't understand reaching those stages so quickly. I also don't understand how people don't intuitively understand how not to provoke other people. Like I hear them say something and I'm immediately thinking "oh god what a wrong thing to say." I think I learned to tread carefully a long time ago, and it's hard for me to understand that other people either don't know how to do that or don't think it's necessary. The few times I've felt annoyed enough not to bother to speak carefully I felt regretful afterward. Ugh.

Sidony

I joined this group at a critical time of my life. At this time I did not talk to people really... only to my T. Otherwise I was really introverted and journaled alot. Way too much actually ....

I understand that it is difficult to be brand new. Would it help at all to think that everybody was new at some time. I hope that your T is encouraging you in the meeting and that at least some of the folks there are empathetic to your new status and shyness.

Did I miss... how long have you been going? It takes a bit to feel comfy. I think that jealousy and anger are pretty typical for a group but .... what would you like to talk about? What would help you or where would you like the group to go...(aside from disappear..lol). You can take the group in a different direction perhaps. And lol yes I know about things being said ....wrong. It should be the group and the leader's role to redirect that.

Well I think that like regular therapy, we like to look back and question what was said by you and by others. How to do things differently.

Sometimes a person has to spew it out to get it out....even if it is not appropriate. It is like smoothing a rough stone. First it is kind of rough and with assistance and work, it becomes polished.

By the end of the group I was a facilitator... something for a shy gal afraid to share herself.

I am off to bed. Good luck tomorrow.

Hey SecretGarden,

I guess it's been a little over 2 months now that I've been attending. I think tonight is my 10th session. I'm semi-dreading it right now.

As far as what I want to talk about? I can't think of anything. Maybe one remark from last week that I'd like to clarify, but after that? I'll probably end up just sitting there like I did last week. It doesn't seem all that appropriate to talk about things that are going on in my regular life though sometimes people do. But most of the time they talk about the interactions between the members of the group. And that's where they talk about jealousy and things like that. I don't feel jealous of anyone there -- I don't really know them well enough. I don't have very strong feelings towards them at all so there isn't much there for me to talk about.

One girl there has tried very hard to make me feel welcome. In fact, she's tried so hard that she's annoyed the other people in the group who thought she was trying to usurp me somehow. Or something. That conversation's been going on for a while, and it's so annoying. I never say anything during it.

I'd tell them I'm annoyed or bored, but I don't have anything I'd rather talk about.

Ugh, it's just a few hours away. Why am I still going?!

(I guess because I trust the therapist.)

Sidony

Why don't you "call" the girl on her trying to befriend you? Bring it out in the open, I think the others in the group might join in, if you sense they are annoyed with her antics... or efforts?

I just don't do group. You have good wishes from me on this!

Oh sorry, didn't mean to imply that was hidden! They DO talk about how they're annoyed with her for trying to befriend me. I told her I appreciated her help. There's been a long discussion since then about whether it's better to be helpful or let people try to figure things out on their own. And now there's some talk about how they're jealous of her because I'll be prone to like her better since she was helpful. It's SO STUPID. I think that's the point though -- talking about all the little things that people bury every day? I guess I bury mine deep 'cause I don't even feel anything other than annoyed. And mostly not even that -- mostly I feel apathetic.

If I actually figure out that this is useful, I'll let you guys know.

Thanks, Sidony

I've never done group. I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd probably either say nothing or end up leading the group like a moderator - I've told both my pdoc and T that. They can see how that might happen with me and there are no groups in my area so no real opportunity to try it out anyways. I really wouldn't know what to do with that type of situation. It does sound a little like High School from your description. What does the therapist say the purpose of you going is? Does the therapist encourage any particular type of participation from you or make suggestions to you about what to do in/with group therapy? What a conundrum.

Yeah he makes suggestions. Mostly whatever I said I'd never want to mention (like the fact that I'm thinking about quitting or that I'm annoyed with everything or that I was preoccupied with how my work day went last week) is what he wants me to mention. The purpose in this is that it will supposedly help me learn how to be closer to people. Particularly he wants me to learn something about dealing with conflict although I'm not really participating in the conflicts since I'm not interested in that.

Yup definitely high schoolish. I think the idea is that adults go through all these feelings of jealousy etc. just like we did in high school or whatever -- just people stop talking about them once they're adults. And being able to talk about them is supposed to be helpful somehow. I have my doubts though.

I definitely learn a lot in individual therapy. Perhaps I'd learn in group if I could get in a better mood about the whole thing. I'm just irritated about it. Eek, it's only an hour away! I'll let you guys know how it goes....

Sidony

Waiting for a report.

Okay after all that....

Tonight's group therapy session actually ended up being okay. Pretty good really. I think I talked more than I ever have before. I almost even liked it. At least for a minute there.

I wonder if it was because my expectations were so incredibly low...

Actually it was because the conversation somehow got onto families. Families I can talk about. Talking about myself directly is hard for me, and talking about how I feel about the other people in the group is impossible (since I don't even know). But family members? I can talk about them. And I guess that's indirectly talking about myself.

I thought at first it was going to be another conflict between 2 of the members about how they feel about each other. I sure am glad that it went in a different direction. Otherwise I would have just sat there again.

The weird part is that 2 people were absent which usually makes it harder for me (I'm more nervous the smaller a group gets). But for some reason a smaller group was better today.



Sidony

Hmm - Go figure. Guess you never can tell. Maybe there will be more nights like that.

Good for you, Sid!

Do you have individual tomorrow?

sidony, very interesting thread!

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I can't see how useful it is for me to show up and not participate

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It doesn't sound useful to me either. Does it meet your therapy goals in any way? I think it would drive me crazy to sit there and listen to a bunch of people arguing. I think some people argue for sport, and I tend not to like to be around that sort. Is there a way you can work on learning to deal with conflict in your one on one sessions with your T? Or did you try that already with no success? What does your T think you can get out of your group sessions that you can't get out of your individual sessions? Those people in your group all sound so insecure to me. Give me a break--they are worried the girl who tried to make you feel welcome will become a better friend of yours than they will? Who effing cares!!! Who wants to be everybody's best friend, anyway? LOL, I can tell I would flunk group if I tried it. Yuck, just yuck.

I like your idea of doing a group where everyone is starting at the same time. If you want to do group in any fashion, perhaps share that idea with your T. You can ask him if he knows of any new groups starting up with that are run by colleagues he respects and thinks you might like. After all, it shouldn't matter to him who facilitates the group you join. When my first baby was born, I was in a group for new moms and their babies. I remember one woman missed the first few sessions and then when she did come, she felt we had already bonded and that she couldn't break into our established patterns. So she waited for a new group to form a couple of months later. We all completely understood where she was coming from, as did our facilitator.

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I don't even like individual therapy as much because I feel like I waste time talking about the group. To me, that's like talking about work. I could gripe about work, but it's not a real issue for me. It's more like a distraction from real issues. Make sense?

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Yes, completely! I remember that was my worry when you first posted about group here. You can just make yourself a rule that you will not talk about group in your solo session. If your T asks you why you won't talk about group anymore, just say you need to talk about the issues of highest priority to you in your session, and right now group is not in that category. You are paying good money for your solo sessions. You get to choose the topic. If you get sidetracked by your T on the group topic, spend a couple of minutes on it and then just say firmly, "I don't want to talk about this anymore. I would like to talk about X." And off you go on the new topic.

sidony, just read your group report from today. Glad it went better than expected. I would be interested to know if you can keep group discussion out of your solo session this week.

My T as well as the T of my daughter both have psychodrama groups one night a week. I am quite intrigued by these. How does one get to be in one? Would my T invite me to join his group? I would actually be very flattered if he did, although I am not sure I would accept (I know I would feel very shy to have him watch me act things out!) But he has never asked me, so I wonder if he thinks I am not "good enough" for his group. Ha, ha, typical insecurity. I don't even know what "good enough" means, lol. But I think psychodrama is a very intriguing method of healing past hurts and traumas as well as dealing with present relationship difficulties. I'm not really the dramatic type, I'm kind of reserved, and I picture the people in the group being very theatrical and emotional at the drop of the hat. Who knows if that is true or not, but that is not how I am, and T has never mentioned the group to me in a way that says "hey, you could join this if you want."

I am glad that it went well for you last night. I think that you have just been getting a chance to feel the group out. Also, sometimes a smaller group allows for more talking. I think you are doing great. Hang in there. Have yourself a party...you have come out. Of course it will ebb and flow but I hope you have gotten on a roll and will feel more comfy each time.

Yup I have individual later today. Not sure what I'll talk about just yet. I'm probably bound to mention the fact that I participated an unusual amount in group last night. Though maybe I'll leave it up to him to allude to it. Will see....

Of course now that I did participate more, I have to ask: What's the point? I mean really -- what's the point in talking about my family with a group of people? I guess it's mildly entertaining, but how is it actually useful or therapeutic?

At least if I continue group, I hope there'll be subjects where we can talk without all the drama between people. I'm seriously not willing to get into any of that. It's just pointless and annoying.

Blah,
Sidony (who refuses to admit there could be anything useful in group just yet)

Good for you! I'm so glad you feel that it went better. For me, the larger the group the more nervous but hey we are all different.

Just take it one session at a time

Okay... No early victories. You get what you wish to from therapy...hopefully. It takes work. Perhaps this is not the area that you wish to do work in right now. No harm in that. You have given it a try. Talk to the T.... though I really do not think I would wish to take my individual time talking about group....but that perhaps is selfish of me. Good luck to ya. Do what you think you need to do.

The cheerleader in me.... as though there was one..haha... wishes you well, which ever avenue you choose.