my T says i have trust issues, and he says it's because it has been broken so bad so many times. i don't even know what i would define trust as now. i mean, there is trust that is the same as knowing something bland, like that he will show up... there's trust that he won't start reading the funny pages to amuse himself while i talk... but that isn't trust really.. that's a sort of expectation of certain types of norms.

what is trust between two people? what does it mean to trust my T? How will i know when or if i do? what happens?

am i supposed to come to believe he cares? is that trust? is it knowing he won't run screaming?..cuz i know enough to know he's paid well enough to just sit there. that doesn't seem like trust.

and that caring part... i mean, it's not real caring.. it's caring like i care about starving kids somewhere... or caring that an aquaintance has cancer. It doesn't involve deep connected feeling... IMO it can't. There is a wall that supposedly has to be there. If i cared, really cared about someone then my life would be impacted by them in many significant ways... pretty regularly. They would be a part of my world. i am not, nor will ever be, a part of his world. i am a part of his job. i pay him to listen and do what he can to help me. The word "care" is the wrong one.. or the definition is limited.

so what does it all add up to?

is it trust if i tell him all my secrets? i don't have any. He says i don't trust him but i tell him anything he wants to know. Maybe he thinks i have hidden things? Maybe he thinks i was really a CSA kid and won't say? Cuz i'm not.

what the hell does trust mean?

[winterbaby]

Gerber, being somewhat in the field of helping people, yes, absolutely I do care about my clients. And I believe your T would care about you. It's not like caring about a lover, a child or that sort of thing. It's different. But when I am in the moment with them, they are truly what matters and I want to help them. When I'm with them they have my full attention.
I think you can't force trust, it has to happen naturally, you'll know it when you feel it.
As for therapists thinking something might have happened, oh boy can I relate. Yes, I had one of those and he did think I was traumatized in some way. I wasn't. And I guess working through with him he finally realized that. But I think they do make assumptions.
With my clients, I do assume things sometimes and then their story comes out differently. So I guess it's better not to assume. What kind of therapist are you seeing?

[selfy]

assume makes an *** out of U and ME hehehe
very good thoughts gerber, hmmm must think bout that 1.....
take care all
self

I guess my definition of caring is different? What you are describing sounds like "interest" or having your attention.. no offense or anything, but it's not what caring means for me. Maybe I need to use a different word altogether. I mean, if I committed suicide my T would probly feel sad when he heard the news, he would probly wonder if he had done what he could and then he would eventually forget about me. You don't forget about people you care about. They aren't in your mind 24/7 but you don't forget. They make you happy when you think about them and you want them to be a part of your life somehow.. not just part of your job.

I hope ths doesn't sound mean or anything, cuz I don't mean it that way. Just "care" is a vague word... I "care" the erosion of the cliff near my hometown.

I see a schema therapist. Ironically, the relationship is supposed to be really strong in schema... the big therapeutic alliance yadda yadda. I told him good luck with that. I am a challenge for him to work on, another case to try and crack. I think I am a kind of puzzle or game he can "win." I don't worry about that, that part doesn't matter. But convincing me he *cares*? Ha! That's a good one. My definition doesn't allow him in there anywhere. He is going to have to figure out another word/term or something if he wants a strong relationship. Because nothing will make me believe him if he uses the word "care."

> It doesn't involve deep connected feeling... IMO it can't. There is a wall that supposedly has to be there.

hmm. i wonder if it is that he is a bit distant / aloof, or if it is that you don't let him in.

i feel really connected with my t sometimes. sometimes i have to pull back from it cause it feels too intimate. it is like... i'm feeling an emotion and he kinda leans forward and its like i can feel him feeling it too. weird, huh. but its a sense of connection to be sure. a deep connected feeling.

i'm wondering whether the wall is one that he has provided or if it is a wall of self defence that you have. if the latter then it would make sense of his comment that you don't trust him..

[MissCharlotte]

I think trust is something that grows over time and can get deeper and deeper if the realtionship continues to grow through mutual respect and caring. Even though I pay my therapist I have come to trust him and believe that he genuinely cares for me and that our relationship is real. If it were not real, I would not go.

I don't know how long you have been seeing your T, but it took me forever to trust mine. And if you think he believes things about you that are not true, then talk about those things during session. It is also okay to be angry with your T....I have just come to know this myself.

I think this is a good topic for a session. Go ahead and ask T what he/she thinks trust is. It might help you arrive at a personal meaning. Good Luck.

[winterbaby]

I think you are right gerber, about paying attention but I also think there is a healthy dose of caring too. There are plenty of times, at least 4 that I recall quickly, I have cried talking to someone in crisis (i was on the phone and they didn't know I was crying.) If I didn't care, I wouldn't feel that way. I remember crying over the suicide calls and the distress they felt. Trying to at the same time, use the protocol for suicide calls and not sound like I feel badly for them if you know what I mean.
I think you might want to make an impact in some way on your T's life. And yes, you do that. Absolutely. Each life that touches ours makes an impact and is unforgettable in it's own way. It's true, I may not recall everything about everybody all of the time, but I remember the impact people made on me and hopefully I made some impact too.
Keep writing! And yes, your T does care! For sure!

[sunrise]

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what does trust even mean?

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That is such a great question, gerber.

I went through different levels of trust with my T. It didn't all come at once. Really early on, we wanted to do EMDR on some really intense childhood memories I had recovered. But I wasn't able to. It surprised me. But T was not surprised. He said it's early yet. He knew we didn't have enough trust yet. He knew way more than I did about our relationship. Later I could do this with him. Then we were together quite a bit longer and I thought wow, I really trust this guy. And then all this other stuff started coming out. I had kept it from him but hadn't really done it intentionally. It was just that I didn't trust him enough. And when I did, the stuff came out. T knew what was going on. I didn't. And finally, our latest breakthrough was my trusting him enough to bring in my husband for couples therapy with me. I never thought I would do this, ever. And I told T this quite a few times. I got stressed out just thinking about the possibility. Then one day I completely changed my mind on that and trusted T enough to bring in my husband. The growing trust has been kind of magical. I wonder if there are still more trust breakthroughs to be made? I keep thinking, how much more can I trust this guy, but there always seems to be a new level. I think he knows all this. I don't. Gerber, I bet your T knows too. Why not have a "trust" discussion with him and ask him your questions, such as why he thinks you don't trust him when you think you do?

I agree trust comes im layers. On one hand I feel distrustful of T because of the break this week where she said she was taking it because she wanted too, but on the other hand my head keeps pulling up the memory of her having been really unwell with flu this yr and her still turning up and not cancelling. Its my own trusting of her that I am battling here because I'm scared that I will sit back and relax and then she will get inside me and hurt me. I have to learn to trust my own reactions as well, trust that If I take the decision to sit back and relax that if the worse happened and she turned round and said she isn't carrying on with me, that I could survive,, pick myself up enought and continue with that awful deep pain inside.

I mean after all, we can trust and trust and trust but at the end of the day, all people are human and they'll going to let us down in some area and I am trying to become strong enought inside to deal with that, so I guess trust is as much to with ourself as others?

yeah, i think trust is a process.
something occurs to me and i think 'i could never ever ever ever ever say that in one million years' and so of course, i don't.
i don't trust myself if t doesn't respond kindly / compassionately
i don't trust my t to respond kindly / compassionately.

there are all kinds of things that occur to me that i censor.

some of them are hard... but i'm able to take the risk.
and when he responds kindly / compassionately...
it is the most wonderful feeling in the world!
liberation from shame and guilt and despair and solitude.
the most wonderful feeling in the world!

but...

it is a process it surely is.
nothing risked nothing gained
one does need to take little risks.
in order to feel an emotional connection
one needs to allow oneself to be a little emotionally vulnerable
(which requires trust)
and then...
we just have to hope...
and wait and see.

and if they respond well then over time we can come to trust them with certain things.

and along the way... we also come to learn something of their sensitivities / insecurities. some areas where they cannot be trusted. that can be hard... but i guess it is realistic. unfortunately...

[Perna]

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gerber said:
But convincing me he *cares*? Ha! That's a good one. My definition doesn't allow him in there anywhere. Because nothing will make me believe him if he uses the word "care."

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Yes, that's trust; you believing he cares. Of course, you don't have to trust him, don't even have to try to trust him. You're not a clam or wild horse he'll break. But no amount of money can get someone to "pretend" to care as you assume he's doing, just a job. Think of the job from his end; could you sit hour after hour, day after day, client after client for money? There must be something else? Any sort of relationship is built on trust. There is no relationship if there is no trust. He wants a relationship with You, not deep dark secrets. But you're wanting ???

Your definition of caring seems to involve scenarios that take place when you're not there. Little hard to confirm or deny aren't they? What does caring mean to you when you're "there" to be cared about?

[ClaireB]

What does trust mean? I guess for me it means allowing myself to be vulnerable with someone.

you'd be amazed what people will do for money. Ever listen around at a teacher's lounge? Or sit with a group of mental health professionals when no clients are around? I'm not saying that none of T's care, but i think it's optimistic to think most do.

caring when i am there to be cared about? Hmm... that is a good question. First i return again to my definition which is not a limited entity. When I say to someone, I care about you, i mean the larger thing.

In session i feel he pays close attention, he listens and acts accepting and nonjudgemental. He asks questions and sometimes mkaes suggestions. Is that caring?

One problem i have is that i do not cry in front of people. i do not outwardly display many emotions. A lot of their "caring techniques" are tied into affect. If you cry the tone changes and maybe you get some minimal physical contact. But if you scream inside then you get advice. Is "caring" tied to the affect of the client? Is it then caring or sympathy? EMpathy is tied to the situation and information not to the affect... is empathy the same as caring?

he wants a relationship with me..?? i suppose you could call it that.. it's some sort of working collaboration process. I don't know that he wants anything either way.

any maybe you are right. Maybe i am not there for anything. It's probably been a bad idea from the start. No..you *are* right. I shouldn't be in therapy.

> In session i feel he pays close attention, he listens and acts accepting and nonjudgemental. He asks questions and sometimes mkaes suggestions. Is that caring?

Well, it depends on how you define caring, of course. Sounds like he is being respectful of you, though. Respectful of what you have to say. Respectful of your experience and your thoughts and your feelings. I guess I'd say that that is a caring thing to do, yeah.

> One problem i have is that i do not cry in front of people. i do not outwardly display many emotions.

how come?
do you become aware of an emotion and then swiftly block / supress / mute it?
quickly... quickly before he sees?

> But if you scream inside then you get advice.

advice for the screaming? that sounds weird to me... do you mean that if you manage to prevent their being aware of your emotional state then they interact with you on a more 'rational' level?

> Is "caring" tied to the affect of the client? Is it then caring or sympathy? EMpathy is tied to the situation and information not to the affect... is empathy the same as caring?

Dunno... Words words words... We can define each one and define their inter-relationships and then someone else can come up with a different model and we can argue about who is right...

I think part of it is about feeling cared for.
Feeling cared about.
And I think part of that is about feeling understood and appreciated and listened to on a purely rational level, yup.
But I think that another part to that (an important part) is to experience an emotion and have the experience of your therapist being in a state of emotional attunement to you. So that you feel a bit of the pain and your therapist... Picks up on your experience of pain and feels pain too... That feeling of emotional attunement / connection... That can help us feel a little less alone with our pain.

how would you feel about that?

I can't explain, its a tilt of the head, the eyes, its a complete knowing that my T does care. It took me while to understand that because my idea of caring was really messed up. When I first came out of the haze of alcohol and started mingling with people in reocvery, I felt as if they all cared, because they said so, they said all the right things, they hugged and spoke of sweet jeasus and every other wonderful words, but when the going got tough, they judged, criticised, they were gone, because I wasn't allowing them to keep up their own fantasys of being caring people, I was challenging them. They weren't prepared for that, they wanted me to allow them to act out their inabilitys in being intimate without them having the first clue what being there for someoene and really caring meant.

I thought it meant a stroll down a path of gold and ever so ever so nice words spoken. I know today what really caring about another humanbeing means, and sometimes it maybe something that doesn't feel good for us, its someone putting in place their personal boundaries, its someone allowing us to grow, to be, I think I can trust T does those things today.

Its those with eyes that lie I do not trust.

he is definitely respectful, and it is clear to me that he takes his job seriously and that he works hard to do a good job. He wants to help me and poor bugger actually seem to think he can. But he doesn't know me well enough yet. It does demonstrate care, as in "take care to be respectful" sure.

>> One problem i have is that i do not cry in front of people. i do not outwardly display many emotions.

>how come?
do you become aware of an emotion and then swiftly block / supress / mute it?
quickly... quickly before he sees?

no,I don't feel there is emotional content to most of what I say, even when I think there ought to be. I am disconnected from that. I should have rephrased what I said.. I don't display negative emotions much, especially sad or hurt..oh, and anger, definitely anger. Those only happen when I am otherwise stressed beyond limits and then they come out of the blue.

> >But if you scream inside then you get advice.

>do you mean that if you manage to prevent their being aware of your emotional state then they interact with you on a more 'rational' level?

yes, that's it exactly. I am unable to relay the feelings for various reasons, one being disconnect and another just the sheer inability to display that in front of him. I have told him that if I were sitting there sobbing his approach would be different... anyone's would be. Empathy is highly activated by the affect of the other. If one has difficulty is demonstrating pain then one gets the more rational response rather than the emotional one which may be needed.

>that you feel a bit of the pain and your therapist... Picks up on your experience of pain and feels pain too... That feeling of emotional attunement / connection...

that would be monumental. I have no expectations of that though. I have explained to him how I am and how I am unable to just cry when I tell him something sad, etc... there really isn't any cue for him to pick up on and so he would have to be a mind reader.

He's a nice guy. I like him and he's funny. I think he has the idea that he will be able to get behind the walls and show me he cares somehow, or that I will be able to give him outward cues to my emotional state. I have no visualization of that, no reference point on which to contemplate.

The more time I spend thinking about working in therapy the more I feel I am not a good candidate for it... that's what they say right? That some people are not? I have repeatable problems in my life, some past crap, and some difficulties in my relationships - I am a social dork. I thought therapy would help, but I am thinking the very nature of my probs make it unlikely that therapy can help. If I am unable to bond with him then there is no tool for working.... isn't that it? In schema especially pretty much everything depends on the relationship and that damned ellusive trust.

maybe I should save myself the $140/hr and spend $29.95 on a Dr Phil book or something.

those are veru insightful observations on your part. People do well with superficial caring, but in hard times... or when someone acts like a jackass, they run like rats from a leaky ship. A truly caring friend stays anyway, even if they have to keep a safe distance till things die down.. they never leave.

the T thing is same but different.

[Fuzzybear]

imo when you know 1001% that something or someone will never never let you down, hurt you or betray you. unfortunately i never had much of that like many people in here.

True to yourself and others
Realise the genuine people against the disloyal
Underestimate yourself - NEVER
Stay loyal and true and never go back on what is said
Take time to get to know who is genuine

jinny xoxoxox

Jinny, I so agree with the "trust being like a mirror" siggy!!