[SarahSweden]

I´ve met with a new T 4 or 5 times now and I´m already both frustrated and disappointed and I need to share it with someone here at PC. I try to list the things she did:

1. She didn´t ask me how I was but went directly to talk about that she had to reschedule a meeting next week. That made us spend several minutes before the meeting started on just checking our calendars. Instead of letting the secretaries arrange a new meeting.

2. Although it is a psyhodynamic therapy she holds some kind of "hidden agenda" to in some way support the rule system where she works. It´s within the psychiatry and public mental health care and she has to do more of taking notes and filing papers than a private T.

She jumps between different subjects and it seems more important to her to get the "right" information than letting me speak of the things that bother me. Today she wanted me to speak about my childhood, of course I want that too, but not because of her demanding me doing so.

3. She takes notes way too much and I feel it prevents us for having a deeper contact.

4. She pointed out that the meeting got a bit longer than 45 minutes. When I checked the time it had only passed 3 or 4 minutes more than the scheduled time! That in a situation when she took several minutes to talk about a new meeting time!

5. She said that we could skip the meeting in next week when we had to search a bit to find a time that suited us both.

The thing is that she is the only T in this facility and it´s very hard to even get psychodynamic therapy within public health care. I don´t have anywhere else to turn and I also want to try a bit more, not giving up after that few sessions.

But still I´m very disappointed and frustrated, I feel it´s a lot to be disappointed with in such an early stage in therapy. Of course I can talk to her about this but I´m afraid she´ll kick me out of therapy.

[seoultous]

Do you think she is just taking your history. You say she takes a lot of notes. She also asked about your childhood. This might be just be her way of doing an interview. I know my first couple meetings were 90 minutes so my T could take a proper history. Maybe you could explain that her taking notes was offensive to you.

In terms of the scheduling issue, maybe she wanted to make sure you felt included in the meeting rescheduling, instead of just blowing you off and letting someone else handle it.

I would give her a little more time - a couple more sessions - and then see if you are a good fit.

It's still VERY early on. Certainly talk about your concerns, but realize that it can take a long time for a comfortable rapport to be reached for some. You are still learning each other.

[BudFox]

I would be upset too. Any sign of the T not listening or wanting to being overly controlling is a problem. And the thing about going over a few minutes is just irrational.

Good luck. Hopefully you can be honest but still stay on good terms.

Originally Posted by BudFox

I would be upset too. Any sign of the T not listening or wanting to being overly controlling is a problem. And the thing about going over a few minutes is just irrational.

Good luck. Hopefully you can be honest but still stay on good terms.

Why though? As many times as people on this forum have complained about their therapist starting their session late by a few minutes because they went over with the previous client by a few minutes, this seems to be a big issue for quite a few clients. This therapist seems to be trying to respect the time boundaries for her sessions, and discussing the need to reschedule for a few minutes seems completely relevant as, again, some here would complain if their therapist didn't address this with them directly. Unfortunately they apparently can't please everyone all the time.

[Argonautomobile]

Hey, if it's not going to work, it's not going to work. Which must be terribly disappointing, I understand. That said, I think it's worth giving another shot. As others have pointed out, it's still very early, your T may be trying to get a history and thus over-structuring this first session, and I do think you ought to forgive her for the time thing.

I mean, in any other context 3-4 minutes really is NOTHING, so it's natural to be miffed. Especially because those therapy minutes seem awfully precious. But 3-4 minutes here and there adds up quickly. I'd hate to be the last client of the day with a T who regularly went over by a few minutes in session (I know because I have been that last client waiting 30 minutes...)

Anyway, I hope it works out in the end.

[growlycat]

In my first 2 sessions with any new T I have had to give my history, go over the ground rules etc. That isn't unusual early on.

If it continues this way, then it makes sense to be concerned. Give it more time and see?

[RedSun]

I agree, give it a bit longer, it does sound like she's taking a thorough history first, which might be a really good sign!

My T would only go over (even 3 or 4 minutes) with mentioning it, and both agreeing it briefly. She's good at holding the time boundaries, consequently she is almost never late for my start time! For me personally, that's a good sign that your T is hot on the timings.

[SarahSweden]

Thanks. Yes, she´s taking history but she just does it without telling me. I mean, if she has an agenda before our meeting I think she should say so as a psychodynamic therapy should be without any certain agenda. It´s up to the client what he/she needs to talk about.

She has done similar before, she brought up some kind of questionnaires and just wanted me to fill them out and bring them back to her. I feel she is acting very careless.

Originally Posted by seoultous

Do you think she is just taking your history. You say she takes a lot of notes. She also asked about your childhood. This might be just be her way of doing an interview. I know my first couple meetings were 90 minutes so my T could take a proper history. Maybe you could explain that her taking notes was offensive to you.

In terms of the scheduling issue, maybe she wanted to make sure you felt included in the meeting rescheduling, instead of just blowing you off and letting someone else handle it.

I would give her a little more time - a couple more sessions - and then see if you are a good fit.

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

Originally Posted by SarahSweden

Thanks. Yes, she´s taking history but she just does it without telling me. I mean, if she has an agenda before our meeting I think she should say so as a psychodynamic therapy should be without any certain agenda. It´s up to the client what he/she needs to talk about.

She has done similar before, she brought up some kind of questionnaires and just wanted me to fill them out and bring them back to her. I feel she is acting very careless.

In my experience relating to a new T (just like any new person in my life) can be a complicated figuring out how to work together process. Especially if, as you have had happen, you had a prior experience that did not work out as you wished.

One thing you have control over is how you communicate your needs and/or questions to your T. It's all fine to vent here about what she "should" say and do, but if you don't share this information with her there is no way you can move to a better working place. For instance, you can raise the issue of agenda by saying something like "It feels as if you want to control the agenda in our sessions, and I'm confused about that because I thought psychodynamic therapy was the opposite." State your perceptions and your wants/needs for how your sessions might go, and ask questions about why she is asking questions or taking notes (which is actually a psychodynamic practice).

I think that I used to believe therapy was all about finding that magically attuned person who would know what I needed and give it to me without my asking (sort of like how I constructed what marriage would be). Instead my experience has been that just because I say words that seem clear to me, doesn't guarantee I'll be understood. Sometimes I have to clarify or explain or just do more to be heard. If I don't get why T is asking a particular question, I ask why she wants to know. Or if she suggests doing something specific, I ask to talk about how it works and why she thinks it would be helpful. If I feel that I've raised an issue and she is not responding to it in the way that I want, I say so. Over time I need to do less and less of these things because we have finely honed the way my sessions go and after six years, she is pretty attuned to me and gets me better. But it was actually work to get here and I still have to be vigilant about communicating what I want to talk about and what I need back from her.

Over time I've come to understand that my beliefs about how T should work are like the ways I think all relationships should work. As I've improved my communication in T and made it my responsibility to communicate what I need and how I need it, I've done the same in my other relationships. It's not really about what T says and does, it's how I react to it and what I choose to do or say back that's the real point. Like all my relationships.

I also believed when I was a new father (all three times) that I would be attuned to my child, my flesh and blood, to giving him/her what was needed at the time. I really wanted to have a happy, smiling, non fussy baby that would magically be produced by my attentive, loving parenting. Each newborn was a complete mystery and no matter how hard I tried and how committed I was to trying to meet his or her needs at all times, it just didn't work. It still doesn't. What does work is trying to help my children communicate with me and being as nondefensive and open to said communication as possible. We fumble through it together and we are reasonably happy a reasonable amount of the time. So when my T struggles to get it right with me, I have a better understanding of how hard it is to do so even when you are highly invested in attunement happening and have built a strong foundation for it.

I guess what I'm saying is that this is really hard stuff, for clients and for therapists. As the client I think it's more helpful to focus on how you can communicate to your T what you're finding disappointing and frustrating. If you can't communicate as you'd like to, you can start by asking for help with communicating the things you need to say.

I think part of it is also recognizing that human relationships, including T relationships, just are going to be disappointing and frustrating some of the time, and increasing one's tolerance and expectations so when it does happen, you can face it directly rather than retreating to your corner and just complaining about it.

Originally Posted by SarahSweden

Thanks. Yes, she´s taking history but she just does it without telling me. I mean, if she has an agenda before our meeting I think she should say so as a psychodynamic therapy should be without any certain agenda. It´s up to the client what he/she needs to talk about.

She has done similar before, she brought up some kind of questionnaires and just wanted me to fill them out and bring them back to her. I feel she is acting very careless.

I don't see how taking the time to get an overview and history of a client is a hidden agenda or careless. Talk to her about how it makes you feel, but I'm wondering if your perception as her having a hidden agenda and being careless is really accurate, or if this is just her standard way of doing things and you don't like it. Talk to her about wanting to get more into the psychodynamic mode with you in the lead and see how that goes, but this is still early on and getting a history may just be part of the protocol of the agency, or for herself. She is a medical doctor after all; I would think her approach might have to include more careful record keeping simply because of her profession and the documentation perhaps required. Ask about it.

[A Red Panda]

Maybe your T thinks it's obvious that she's building your history for herself and maybe doesn't notice that you want her to be more clear with you about the things she does?

I think it was respectful of her to use a few minutes of your session to go over the appointment change. As evidenced in this forum, sooooooo many people freak out when things like that aren't done by the t in person. If you're ok with getting calls from reception to go over changes, just tell her that. She was giving you the respect of hearing it from her.

[SarahSweden]

I agree to what you say about the time aspect, that if a T generally lets his/her clients stay some more minutes it´ll ad up during the day. But that´s only if the T has very short of time between sessions.

I think it´s almost impossible to act in a polite and caring way if a T looks that harsh upon times. Of course it´ll be times when a client is in the middle of something and to me it´s only rude if the T then interrupts. Of course I don´t mean a client could stay for many minutes extra but a few minutes before to settle and a few minutes after if there are some concerns or stuff that you feel you want to tell before the session ends.

With this T it´s also that she seems inconsistent, she herself arrives late, about five or ten minutes and sometimes she has let me stay for some extra minutes when she felt the need. But this time it was me talking about something when the session was about to end and then suddenly she had to tell me that we had stayed past the time of the session. (45 min)

Originally Posted by Argonautomobile

Hey, if it's not going to work, it's not going to work. Which must be terribly disappointing, I understand. That said, I think it's worth giving another shot. As others have pointed out, it's still very early, your T may be trying to get a history and thus over-structuring this first session, and I do think you ought to forgive her for the time thing.

I mean, in any other context 3-4 minutes really is NOTHING, so it's natural to be miffed. Especially because those therapy minutes seem awfully precious. But 3-4 minutes here and there adds up quickly. I'd hate to be the last client of the day with a T who regularly went over by a few minutes in session (I know because I have been that last client waiting 30 minutes...)

Anyway, I hope it works out in the end.

[SarahSweden]

Thanks for this, a lot of interesting thoughts. I agree to what you say and I get your T is that kind of T who accepts dialogue and perhaps some complaints from clients.

I don´t know if my current T is that way. I´m afraid she´ll turn me down and that she´ll get second thoughts about us having therapy. I don´t pay myself and I see her through public health care and here everything is about judgements.

They assess all clients and they could easily, if met with the "wrong" person, tell me that I´m not suited for psychodynamic therapy or whatever. I have no power in that respect, perhaps your own will and opinions are more heard of when seeing a private T and a T who´s more reliant on clients.

Originally Posted by ListenMoreTalkLess

In my experience relating to a new T (just like any new person in my life) can be a complicated figuring out how to work together process. Especially if, as you have had happen, you had a prior experience that did not work out as you wished.

One thing you have control over is how you communicate your needs and/or questions to your T. It's all fine to vent here about what she "should" say and do, but if you don't share this information with her there is no way you can move to a better working place. For instance, you can raise the issue of agenda by saying something like "It feels as if you want to control the agenda in our sessions, and I'm confused about that because I thought psychodynamic therapy was the opposite." State your perceptions and your wants/needs for how your sessions might go, and ask questions about why she is asking questions or taking notes (which is actually a psychodynamic practice).

I think that I used to believe therapy was all about finding that magically attuned person who would know what I needed and give it to me without my asking (sort of like how I constructed what marriage would be). Instead my experience has been that just because I say words that seem clear to me, doesn't guarantee I'll be understood. Sometimes I have to clarify or explain or just do more to be heard. If I don't get why T is asking a particular question, I ask why she wants to know. Or if she suggests doing something specific, I ask to talk about how it works and why she thinks it would be helpful. If I feel that I've raised an issue and she is not responding to it in the way that I want, I say so. Over time I need to do less and less of these things because we have finely honed the way my sessions go and after six years, she is pretty attuned to me and gets me better. But it was actually work to get here and I still have to be vigilant about communicating what I want to talk about and what I need back from her.

Over time I've come to understand that my beliefs about how T should work are like the ways I think all relationships should work. As I've improved my communication in T and made it my responsibility to communicate what I need and how I need it, I've done the same in my other relationships. It's not really about what T says and does, it's how I react to it and what I choose to do or say back that's the real point. Like all my relationships.

I also believed when I was a new father (all three times) that I would be attuned to my child, my flesh and blood, to giving him/her what was needed at the time. I really wanted to have a happy, smiling, non fussy baby that would magically be produced by my attentive, loving parenting. Each newborn was a complete mystery and no matter how hard I tried and how committed I was to trying to meet his or her needs at all times, it just didn't work. It still doesn't. What does work is trying to help my children communicate with me and being as nondefensive and open to said communication as possible. We fumble through it together and we are reasonably happy a reasonable amount of the time. So when my T struggles to get it right with me, I have a better understanding of how hard it is to do so even when you are highly invested in attunement happening and have built a strong foundation for it.

I guess what I'm saying is that this is really hard stuff, for clients and for therapists. As the client I think it's more helpful to focus on how you can communicate to your T what you're finding disappointing and frustrating. If you can't communicate as you'd like to, you can start by asking for help with communicating the things you need to say.

I think part of it is also recognizing that human relationships, including T relationships, just are going to be disappointing and frustrating some of the time, and increasing one's tolerance and expectations so when it does happen, you can face it directly rather than retreating to your corner and just complaining about it.

[SarahSweden]

Yes perhaps but that´s a quite an err if so, of course I need to know about her agenda and plans. Not that she just "runs her own game" and expect me to follow without questions.

To me it´s the opposite about the time, it´s not att all respectful to take time to scheduling issues as I have only 45 minutes a week to see her and to talk about the stuff I need.

Respectful had been if she said something like "we need some extra minutes to talk about the schedule and I´ll add time at the end". Because this wasn´t just looking for a next time for appointment as she has almost no free sessions during the week. It took several minutes and then she expects me to just jump into whatever subject she thinks.

It´s not neccesary to schedule through the secrataries but in such a case like this, when it´s hard to find available appointments, I think it´s wiser to save that time and ask a secretary to phone or e-mail the client about scheduling.

Originally Posted by A Red Panda

Maybe your T thinks it's obvious that she's building your history for herself and maybe doesn't notice that you want her to be more clear with you about the things she does?

I think it was respectful of her to use a few minutes of your session to go over the appointment change. As evidenced in this forum, sooooooo many people freak out when things like that aren't done by the t in person. If you're ok with getting calls from reception to go over changes, just tell her that. She was giving you the respect of hearing it from her.

[Argonautomobile]

Originally Posted by SarahSweden

I agree to what you say about the time aspect, that if a T generally lets his/her clients stay some more minutes it´ll ad up during the day. But that´s only if the T has very short of time between sessions.

I think it´s almost impossible to act in a polite and caring way if a T looks that harsh upon times. Of course it´ll be times when a client is in the middle of something and to me it´s only rude if the T then interrupts. Of course I don´t mean a client could stay for many minutes extra but a few minutes before to settle and a few minutes after if there are some concerns or stuff that you feel you want to tell before the session ends.

With this T it´s also that she seems inconsistent, she herself arrives late, about five or ten minutes and sometimes she has let me stay for some extra minutes when she felt the need. But this time it was me talking about something when the session was about to end and then suddenly she had to tell me that we had stayed past the time of the session. (45 min)

Well, that sounds like a dilly of a pickle, as Flanders would say. And she's the only T in this facility? The only place to get psychodynamic therapy in public healthcare? What a shame, as you really don't seem to like her. You can always talk about this with her, though I have a feeling you'll be expected to adjust your expectations before she adjusts her practices--(And boy do I know what THAT's like!)--but, hey, who knows? Always worth a shot.

Best of luck.

[Argonautomobile]

One thought about scheduling...My T does this too, and, yeah, it eats up a couple minutes. I learned to appreciate that he handles his own scheduling because the secretaries SUCK at doing this. Something something the systems don't talk to each other blah blah blah...Every time I scheduled through the office (a total of three times) I got double-booked twice and once they told me that T wasn't even there! Had to walk 45 minutes home (car-sharing thing) ranting to myself like a crazy person. Second I get home, find a message on my phone from T: "So you missed your appointment today...?"

I mean, not that it's the client's fault when the clinic can't communicate with itself like a competent bloody organization, but, you know, you go to war with the army you've got...

Again, if this really is the ONLY option, you'll be amazed at how quickly your standards can lower, jajaja.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by SarahSweden

I agree to what you say about the time aspect, that if a T generally lets his/her clients stay some more minutes it´ll ad up during the day. But that´s only if the T has very short of time between sessions.

Yea, I'm confused as to why everyone thinks that 3-4 minutes extra is going to delay the next appointment. If therapists are scheduling clients wall to wall with no buffer between appointments, then yea a few minutes of overrun is going to be a problem. But scheduling that way would be rather brain dead.

Originally Posted by SarahSweden

With this T it´s also that she seems inconsistent, she herself arrives late, about five or ten minutes and sometimes she has let me stay for some extra minutes when she felt the need. But this time it was me talking about something when the session was about to end and then suddenly she had to tell me that we had stayed past the time of the session. (45 min)

I'd be bothered.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by lolagrace

I'm wondering if your perception as her having a hidden agenda and being careless is really accurate, or if this is just her standard way of doing things and you don't like it.

But what if Sarah's perception is entirely accurate? Will nobody grant her that possibility? Maybe her disappointment and frustration are entirely justified. Why not assume that to be the case, rather than assuming she is in need of some sort of correction?

[RedSun]

I hear that the time inconsistency is annoying. I agree that T should take the same attitude regardless of whether it's your want to go over or hers.

Time boundaries are very important though. Even if a T hasn't got clients back to back, and I think that's not healthy or usual practise, the T should still start and finish on time. They need the ten/fifteen minute gap to process hat last client and focus on the next, have a drink, wee etc...
Also, some clients have not been able to put their own boundaries in place IRL, to say I need some time now, or thanks but I am going now...it's helpful for a T and other healthcarers to model that. Time boundaries also create a safe, predictable structure to the sessions and that can help a client feel safe and empowered.

[A Red Panda]

Originally Posted by SarahSweden

Yes perhaps but that´s a quite an err if so, of course I need to know about her agenda and plans. Not that she just "runs her own game" and expect me to follow without questions.

To me it´s the opposite about the time, it´s not att all respectful to take time to scheduling issues as I have only 45 minutes a week to see her and to talk about the stuff I need.

Respectful had been if she said something like "we need some extra minutes to talk about the schedule and I´ll add time at the end". Because this wasn´t just looking for a next time for appointment as she has almost no free sessions during the week. It took several minutes and then she expects me to just jump into whatever subject she thinks.

It´s not neccesary to schedule through the secrataries but in such a case like this, when it´s hard to find available appointments, I think it´s wiser to save that time and ask a secretary to phone or e-mail the client about scheduling.

I don't find it to be a big deal if my counsellor doesn't outline for me exactly what he's doing and why - he doesn't usually and when I want to know the point I can ask. If he explained it all he'd be wasting my time. Seeing as your thread is mostly about time.... That might be what she is doing. Trying to maximize your time together. Have you told her what you want? You're still new with her and she can't read your mind. She just seems to have a different style than you, so you need to clearly let her know (from what I've read I'm thinking that you haven't done that, if you have then I'm sorry)

She has no way to know that you are fine with scheduling via the phone. A lot of people (this forum is a prime example) basically lose it when their t changes schedules and doesn't tell them personally. Did you say "ok, I'll work it out with reception later then"? Or did you just go along with it? If you stated that you would deal with reception then yeah it was rude of her to ignore that, but if you didn't then she was just being respectful.

I'm sorry that you are so upset with her, but it sounds like she was doing what she could to be respectful based around what is commonly wanted. You just have different needs and expectations and she obviously doesn't know them yet.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by BudFox

But what if Sarah's perception is entirely accurate? Will nobody grant her that possibility? Maybe her disappointment and frustration are entirely justified. Why not assume that to be the case, rather than assuming she is in need of some sort of correction?

Because sarahs attitude toward this current t is almost exactly the same as her attitude towards her previous t, and similar to your attitude toward ts - that the fault is the ts. Then the client (you, sarah, whoever) tell the t that you think they are doing their job incorrectly. Then the t tells the client, maybe we are not a good match. Then the client does not get the help they had once hoped to get from the t.

I understand the impulse to tell the t they are not doing a good job. It often comes from having ineffective parents who perhaps put your life at risk. The t needs to know that YOU ARE AWARE that you have this deservedly negative and fearful attitude and want to change it in yourself, even if you dont always act like it. But if you go in there thinking that the t is the one who has to change in order for you to feel better - that would not be ethical. That would be like literally giving you a fish and letting you eat for a day, instead of teaching you how to fish in the world.

f

[SarahSweden]

At the moment I just went along, she didn´t ask me if it was fine to take some time to schedule for that appointment we had to change. I think after reading some posts here that it seems more important to don´t question anything than to open a discussion about the T about things that bother me. Not meaning that you personally thought so.

Originally Posted by A Red Panda

I don't find it to be a big deal if my counsellor doesn't outline for me exactly what he's doing and why - he doesn't usually and when I want to know the point I can ask. If he explained it all he'd be wasting my time. Seeing as your thread is mostly about time.... That might be what she is doing. Trying to maximize your time together. Have you told her what you want? You're still new with her and she can't read your mind. She just seems to have a different style than you, so you need to clearly let her know (from what I've read I'm thinking that you haven't done that, if you have then I'm sorry)

She has no way to know that you are fine with scheduling via the phone. A lot of people (this forum is a prime example) basically lose it when their t changes schedules and doesn't tell them personally. Did you say "ok, I'll work it out with reception later then"? Or did you just go along with it? If you stated that you would deal with reception then yeah it was rude of her to ignore that, but if you didn't then she was just being respectful.

I'm sorry that you are so upset with her, but it sounds like she was doing what she could to be respectful based around what is commonly wanted. You just have different needs and expectations and she obviously doesn't know them yet.

[SarahSweden]

I don´t think it must be about having right or having wrong, it´s about feeling scared and frustrated that you won´t be accepted in therapy if you share critique.

I have never told a T they did their job incorrectly but I think it´s given that you should be able to express yourself and what bothers you in therapy. Besides, it isn´t personal, it´s about things that happen in therapy and for me it´s only unprofessional if a T can´t handle those things.

And what´s the alternative to express what you feel about a T? To just adapt to him/her, what´s the point in that? You reason like a T is a flawless role model that you shouldn´t question because if you do you´ll be sorry if he or she ends therapy.

It´s also impossible to know how to show that you are aware about an attitude you have. I think the client is whoever he/she is and as long as you don´t threaten or behave badly, like always being late or such, it´s up to the T to help you to bring light to different problems. It´s not up to the client to try to find out how you should choose a suiting attitude towards a T, it would just be acting.

Originally Posted by unaluna

Because sarahs attitude toward this current t is almost exactly the same as her attitude towards her previous t, and similar to your attitude toward ts - that the fault is the ts. Then the client (you, sarah, whoever) tell the t that you think they are doing their job incorrectly. Then the t tells the client, maybe we are not a good match. Then the client does not get the help they had once hoped to get from the t.

I understand the impulse to tell the t they are not doing a good job. It often comes from having ineffective parents who perhaps put your life at risk. The t needs to know that YOU ARE AWARE that you have this deservedly negative and fearful attitude and want to change it in yourself, even if you dont always act like it. But if you go in there thinking that the t is the one who has to change in order for you to feel better - that would not be ethical. That would be like literally giving you a fish and letting you eat for a day, instead of teaching you how to fish in the world.

f

[JaneTennison1]

There doesn't have to be a right or wrong but the options are also not critique the T or follow silently. No one knows what you want or need unless you communicate. Why not just ask her the plans, tell her you struggle a bit with connection, ask her what her time boundaries are. See if you and she can work together rather than assume she has made all her own plans and expects no criticism.

I just started with a new T. She started sayin something I didn't like, I asked her not to and now she doesn't say that. Communication is key.